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Airbus May Spend $2 Bill Challenge Boeing's 7e7  
User currently offlineKEESJE From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (10 years 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 8838 times:


Aug. 29 (Bloomberg) -- Airbus SAS, the world's biggest planemaker, plans to challenge Boeing Co.'s 7E7 airliner, the U.S. company's first new plane in 15 years, with a longer-range version of the A330 model, said people familiar with the project.

Airbus may announce a decision to go ahead with the plan by year-end, said the people, who declined to be identified. The aircraft would take advantage of new, fuel-efficient engines initially designed for Boeing's plane by General Electric Co. and Rolls-Royce Group Plc, and cost about $2 billion to develop.


http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000006&sid=aaw23Pue2AbI&refer=home

For some reason a previous topic was deleted (un supportive of sponsor ?)

37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSabenapilot From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 2714 posts, RR: 46
Reply 1, posted (10 years 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 8718 times:

Well, it has been rumoured for months Airbus would respond with an A332lite, but it seems the A350 is going to be more than that.

Apart from the new engines and the lighter structures, Airbus is reportedly also working an an ALL new wing in combination with the new engines, thus making the A350 an all new derivate (like the A340-500/-600 is to the A340-300) rather than just a re-engined A330-200 as was originally thought.

I guess Airbus is indeed going to push this plane forward before the end of the year to counter the hype Boeing tries to create with the B7E7 (adds continuously running on this site for instance which indeed seem to have their influence on the slant of the site) and of course to secure funding for their latest project under the current EU/US bilateral agreement before the US or the WTO can push for a change to it but it remains to be seen if it will fly before the B7E7...

[Edited 2004-08-30 11:45:31]

User currently offlineRabenschlag From Germany, joined Oct 2000, 1007 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (10 years 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 8648 times:

wow - this is really going to put some pressure on the 7e7 program. boeing themselves demonstrated what new wings and engines can do with a design of the 60's: the 737 NG can perfectly compete with the A320. given this, an A350 with new wings and engines may very well come close to the 7e7. (please do not delete!)

User currently offlineN754pr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (10 years 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 8628 times:

Interesting is all I'm going to say at this time.

User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (10 years 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 8557 times:

"Apart from the new engines and the lighter structures, Airbus is reportedly also working an an ALL new wing in combination with the new engines, thus making the A350 an all new derivate (like the A340-500/-600 is to the A340-300) rather than just a re-engined A330-200 as was originally thought."

Where is this information reportedly coming from? I did not see it in the article.

It makes sense that Airbus is responding. But it seems like they are responding with two major changes: 1. a new wing box (as opposed to a new wing) and 2. engines.

Will a new wing box made of composites reduce weight enough for a new a330 to compete with what will be a primarily composite airplane? The 7E7 engines are bleedless meaning that a new 330 would need alternative sources to power tradionally bleed air driven systems. I am also curious to hear more. $2 billion seems like a relatively small amount to develop what seems like a new type.

The other thing I am curious about is what the effect would be on sales of 340-300 series airplanes. It seems that with the extended range there would be some overlap.


User currently offlineKEESJE From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (10 years 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 8523 times:

"The 7E7 engines are bleedless"

The versions of the gen-x and RR engines intended for the 7E7 will be bleedless (or will give less bleed-air).

GE and RR seem to have no preference :

"General Electric spokesman Rick Kennedy said the company designed its 7E7 engine with the intent of selling to others. "

``As market leaders on the current A330, Rolls-Royce would clearly be interested in providing the latest generation of Trent series engines for any potential application,'' said Martin Johnson, a Rolls-Royce spokesman."



I think a A350 would be aimed at the short/medium haul market, the same market the 7E7-3 is aimed at.

The long expected A300/310 replacement ...



User currently offlinePVD757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3412 posts, RR: 16
Reply 6, posted (10 years 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 8421 times:

The Question will be how much per aircraft will this cost? I think the 7E7 is also priced very low to keep pressure on the competition along that line as well.

User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (10 years 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 8375 times:

Keesje,

I probably did not state my question clearly.

One of the innovations of the 7E7 are systems that are powered electrically instead of using bleed air. From what I understand that would eliminate the need for many air ducts and thus reduce weight. Engines that do not need to supply bleed air can power the airplane using less fuel-- another efficiency gain.

To restate my question: how would Airbus and engine mfrs adapt these engines for the A330? Will they provide bleed air for the 330 or will the 330 get new systems that do not need bleed air?

I have no idea. Anyone have an educated guess?


User currently offlineMicstatic From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 778 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (10 years 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 8352 times:

Very suspicious. How in the world can Airbus possibly afford the R+D that comes along another new line?


S340,DH8,AT7,CR2/7,E135/45/170/190,319,320,717,732,733,734,735,737,738,744,752,762,763,764,772,M80,M90
User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (10 years 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 8328 times:

Half measures rarely accomplish much, reminds me of the 764.

User currently offlineRabenschlag From Germany, joined Oct 2000, 1007 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (10 years 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 8328 times:

Very suspicious. How in the world can Airbus possibly afford the R+D that comes along another new line?

maybe the same way boeing was able to dig into the 764 and the 777 at the same time?








User currently offlineKEESJE From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (10 years 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 8322 times:

How in the world can Airbus possibly afford the R+D that comes along another new line?

They sold 900+ copies of the 330/340 line and have an enormous 320/-30/-40/-80 backlog. Probably banks won't be hesitant to provide loans.

And it won't be a new line, just expanding the 330/340 family line.

The body / systems/ cockpit /tail etc. are "off the shelf"




User currently offlineKl911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5133 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (10 years 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 8291 times:

Which airlines are the most interested in the 'A350' at the moment?

And:

To which airlines does the 'A350' fit the most?

KL911


User currently offlineRabenschlag From Germany, joined Oct 2000, 1007 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (10 years 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 8261 times:

leelaw wrote Half measures rarely accomplish much, reminds me of the 764.

while there may be some truth in this statement, boeing has demonstrated that evolution can work excellently if carried out in a proper way: 737 NG.



User currently offlineHz747300 From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2004, 1668 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (10 years 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 8224 times:
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Too bad Airbus is not threatened by the 7E7 otherwise they might have to act on it...

This is the type of comedy that only happens in real life. I think that Airbus' project will be a failure because of their rush to market and, "hey, don't forget about me" attitude.

They should be focusing their efforts where they have a solid win--the large scale airliner.



Keep on truckin'...
User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (10 years 4 days ago) and read 8179 times:

Hz747300,

Airbus has no choice but to react. The A330-200 owns its market segment and probably generates quite a bit of cash for them. It is far too early to say that Boeing 7E7/A380 will succeed or that the A330X will fail. Strategically Airbus cannot just sit by and watch Boeing potentially take over this market.

Keesje,

The private capital markets have to date not been willing to lend enough to Airbus. Or to put it another way Airbus has been unable or unwilling to pay market rates for the capital it requires to build airplanes.




User currently offlineHz747300 From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2004, 1668 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (10 years 4 days ago) and read 8152 times:
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N79969,

I have no doubt that they had to react--I just always laugh when first hear:

"We have no worries about the 7E7, it is rushed and ridiculous"

Then,

"We are willing to spend up to $2 billion of hard working European tax-payer money to develop a jet to compete with something we just said was 'rushed and ridiculous'."

However, when I heard that Airbus does not have to pay back development costs to their governments if it does not recoup those costs on the market for the A380, I lost a lot of respect for them. I do not play favorites though, as I lost a lot of respect for Boeing when they allowed themselves to be the beneficiary of the stupid lease arrangement for 767 tankers, and US government did not allow an A330 model to even compete for the role.



Keep on truckin'...
User currently offlineMaddy From Germany, joined Aug 2004, 164 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (10 years 4 days ago) and read 8118 times:

Hz747300:
"I have no doubt that they had to react--I just always laugh when first hear:

"We have no worries about the 7E7, it is rushed and ridiculous"

Then,

"We are willing to spend up to $2 billion of hard working European tax-payer money to develop a jet to compete with something we just said was 'rushed and ridiculous'.""

It´s the same with the A380. First Boeing said "to big, no market", now they are developing the 747Advanced. It´s not as big as the A380 but a way to keep a market for the 747.

Again the subsidies threat? Do you think a company that has got a turnover of 19.2 billion euros (2003) needs subsidies or get them for free from the governments?


User currently offlineGreg From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (10 years 4 days ago) and read 8104 times:

Excellent. It will only make the 7e7 a stronger aircraft. And further the A330 program.

Competition is excellent for both the customer and the consumer.


User currently offlineKEESJE From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (10 years 4 days ago) and read 8092 times:


Hz747300 :
I have no doubt that they had to react--I just always laugh when first hear:

"We have no worries about the 7E7, it is rushed and ridiculous"


Re-writing history ?  Big grin
"Never lets facts stand in the way of a good story line"

The actual quote was : "They have rushed this aircraft through in a ridiculous way."
Richard Fisher (The Engineer, 11 June 2004) also pulled it out of context..
http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1624993/


One would nearly forget the7E7 is an answer to the A330, and not the other way around.

Airbus started widebody short/medium haul twins from the start, competing with the 727..

Perhaps it is not so strange / unexpected they replace the A300/310 after so long ..



User currently offlineWarren747sp From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1160 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (10 years 4 days ago) and read 8037 times:

But huge turnover does not equal net profit. Airbus will have to secure state funding for the new project which they laughed at Boeing earlier.


747SP
User currently offlineKEESJE From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (10 years 4 days ago) and read 8003 times:

But huge turnover does not equal net profit
True, but : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3935315.stm


User currently offlineRabenschlag From Germany, joined Oct 2000, 1007 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (10 years 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7869 times:

luckily, the 7e7 receives considerable direct subsidies via the japanese portion of it - not only loans with a parachute as airbus does. so this time, competition may be fair enough.

additionally, it is not clear how airbus will finance the A350. so it's too early to throw eggs.

but as noted earlier, it's tiresome to start the debate over subsidies again and again... there has been enough whining, which sometimes creates the picture of bad losers.




User currently offlineGlideslope From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1612 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (10 years 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6196 times:


I remember all those posts, "the 7E7 is no threat to Airbus." " the 330 is a fine aircraft as is."

Guess what? Airbus in faltering. If they don't go head to head with the 7E they could be in real trouble. I still say the 380 will not meet it's performance specs. I think others are very worried also. Airbus has put themselves in a real pickle, and Lehey's mouth won't get them out of it.

2 billion for R&D? What do you mean Airbus may not have? It will be the taxpayers of Germany, France, Spain, and Britain who come up with the 2 billion.

This along with the upcoming WTO issues for Airbus make the future appear more cloudy every day. IMO.  Smile



To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (10 years 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6014 times:

Guess what? Airbus in faltering.
IMO the 7e7 is basicly 2 aircraft. The 7E7-3 is a successor of the A300/310. I think Airbus is reacting on that one. The 332 and 333 are bigger then the 7e7-8. A333 is not even a real long haul aircraft.

I still say the 380 will not meet it's performance specs
The Airlines just don´t get it, do they?

I think others are very worried also
Are you referring to some a.net fellow members ?

2 billion for R&D? What do you mean Airbus may not have? It will be the taxpayers
We are talking repayable loans with interrest here. It proved to be good loans sofar..

This along with the upcoming WTO issues for Airbus make the future appear more cloudy every day
Cloudy ? Airbus order backlog : > $70Billion and growing ..

About the WTO: don´t worry, Boeing has too much too loose. You see, those Washingston State $3Bill and Japanese Billions aren´t loans.
When NASA/Boeing programs & funds programs are drawn into the discussions who knows what will happen...

Boeing now playing it up IMO is an example of attack as the best defense... Boeing has to bridge the next 4-5 years .. (e.g 767 tankers)


25 Whitehatter : Glideslope I suggest you take your crystal ball back to the shop as it clearly needs cleaning. It obviously is stuck on the politicians' rhetoric chan
26 Radelow : Woah wait a minute here. While the Japanese are contributing money to the development of the 7E7 they are also getting to build the wings. Also isn't
27 Brons2 : As for the WTO, bring it on. Let's have this out in the open once and for all. The hypocrisy of Mulally, Stonecipher and Condit is due for an airing.
28 Post contains links Gaut : N79969, One of the innovations of the 7E7 are systems that are powered electrically instead of using bleed air. From what I understand that would elim
29 Post contains links Keesje : Also isn't this money coming from the manufactures and not the government? This sounds a little naive doesn´t it. Japanese government is over it´s n
30 Post contains links Rabenschlag : ok, then lets play the subsidies game again. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A41192-2004Aug4.html the 1992 traty between the US and EU a
31 Gigneil : Take a look at GENX and Trent1000 web pages and you will see that bleedless technology is not the backbone of those programs. The efficiency gains via
32 Post contains images Northwest717 : I have complete faith in Boeing. I think the 7E7 will sell considerably better than the A350. I think the same might be true for the A380 selling bett
33 Pw6000 : N160LH , Airbus committed to building the A330 tanker in the US. Airbus aircraft, in general, have over 50% US content in them to begin with. The 777
34 Zvezda : Both A and B receive major subsidies. We would all be better off if subsidies were ended on both sides. The only net beneficiaries of subsidies are th
35 N160LH : Alright kids.... I really do not care what you think is ignorant, I have worked on and around airbus's aircraft, and all of which have better Boeing m
36 Joni : This forum appears to be taking new members again? Am I the only one who thinks the level of discussion has dropped recently?
37 BestWestern : I feel the same Joni...
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