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UA JFK-LHR, Will It Survive?  
User currently offlineContinentalEWR From United States of America, joined May 2000, 3762 posts, RR: 13
Posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 7756 times:

United is arguably the weakest airline in this highly competitive yet very lucrative segment, probably the busiest and most important international city pair in the world.

UA has two daily flights, one a 777, the other a 767-300, both from JFK. It used to operate a third JFK frequency, departing in the morning, and from Newark, on a 777.

United still has a loyal following in the NY area, but its presence at JFK is basically limited to SFO/LAX transcons, NRT, and LHR.

Will UA just give up this route and add flights from other markets that are captured under Bermuda II?

ContinentalEWR

39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline7LBAC111 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2004, 2566 posts, RR: 35
Reply 1, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 7725 times:

Interestingly, if they did give up the route, would they lose the slots to another carrier? Or could BMI operate the service for them - both are Star carriers.




Debate is what you put on de hook when you want to catch de fish.
User currently offlineJoFMO From Germany, joined Jul 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 7682 times:

BMI is not allowed to operate from Heathrow to the USA under the current Bermuda2 restrictions.

And btw UA also has 8 CRJ from JFK to IAD.

But thats all; not very much for Americas biggest metropolitan area.


User currently offline7LBAC111 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2004, 2566 posts, RR: 35
Reply 3, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 7619 times:

I know BMI aren't currently allowed to operate from LHR to USA, but how does this work in relation to BMI operating the service for them, and the flight carrying both UA nd BD flight numbers?


Debate is what you put on de hook when you want to catch de fish.
User currently offlineArsenal@LHR From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 7792 posts, RR: 20
Reply 4, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 7580 times:
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United's two daily LHR-JFK flights have always been up against stiff competition. AA offers 6 daily frequencies from early morning to late afternoon. BA has the same amount with flights spread out all over the day. But i wouldn't say UA has a weaker product than VS, VS also has 2 daily flights to JFK, morning and afternoon. I suppose UA could make JFK-LHR a seasonal route when passenger numbers are higher (or isn't that allowed?).




In Arsene we trust!!
User currently offlineAirplanetire From United States of America, joined May 2001, 1809 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 7530 times:

7LBAC111, BMI couldn't operate a flight from LHR to JFK by carrying both their own and a UA flight number. Bermuda II specifically states that only two US (UA and AA) and two British (BA and Virgin) airlines can operate between to the United States and LHR, so BMI could not operate for United. On the other hand, an airline in either country can put their code on a flight between the US and LHR on any of those four airlines. For instance, Continental puts their code on a Virgin flight from EWR to LHR.

-Airplanetire


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 6, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 7469 times:

I do not think that UA will give up the important and prestigious JFK-LHR route; it is important to the route system as a whole, Eventhough UA offers far fewer seats on the route than BA or AA (which more or less dominate the JFK-LHR route), UA I believe does fill up the important premium class seats on the flights and the upgrade of one of the flights to a 777 is a good sign. (For years, UA operated 2 or 3 762 flights per day).

Much like the JFK transcon routes, UA's JFK-LHR operation is oriented to high fare business customers who regularly commute between NYC and London. As long as UA can keep these customers happy and onboard, UA will offer JFK-LHR service. I would not be surpirsed if, at some point, we see a Premium Service aircraft introduced by UA on the JFK-LHR flights, much like UA plans for the JFK-LAX/SFO routes, with a huge percentage of the aircraft devoted to F and C customers, plus a small E+ cabin......it may not be a bad idea at all, 757PS service between JFK and LHR. Let the bargain hunters fly with AA, BA or VS, and UA can concentrate on the high fare passengers with 3 757PS flights per day.


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16991 posts, RR: 67
Reply 7, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 7456 times:

I would not be surpirsed if, at some point, we see a Premium Service aircraft introduced by UA on the JFK-LHR flights, much like UA plans for the JFK-LAX/SFO routes, with a huge percentage of the aircraft devoted to F and C customers, plus a small E+ cabin......it may not be a bad idea at all, 757PS service between JFK and LHR.

A fine idea, but where would they get the slot?



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 8, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 7405 times:

I was suggesting replacing the 777 and 763 flights with 757PS flights, as for the third flight, UA previously operated a daylight flight between JFK-LHR and UA probably has the LHR slots - I think that UA currently allows Star Alliance members to use certain of its LHR slots (babysitting) so that UA will not lose these valuable assets, I could be wrong, but with schedule tweaking, I am sure that UA can come up with an extra slot at LHR!

User currently offlineBENNETT123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7433 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 7388 times:

Which other international routes are in doubt.

I am due to fly from LHR to LAX in April.


User currently offlineBicoastal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 7368 times:

No one has mentioned how much cargo UA is carrying in the belly of their aircraft on these flights. I don't know the answer, but if the cargo is a money maker, the flights don't need to be entirely full of passengers. I assume, too, that bmi codeshares on these flights, so United has that market in the UK from which to draw. With the Star Alliance, too, and the increasingly borderless business traffic in Europe, a German/Scandinavian/Austrian/Polish/Spanish/Portugese etc. businessperson with loyalty to one of the Star member's frequent flyer programs and needing to fly from LHR to NYC will likely choose Star Alliance member United. In fact, you would think the Star Alliance would almost require United to stay in this market.

[Edited 2004-09-06 18:01:44]

User currently offlineSafetyDude From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3795 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 7354 times:

VS also has 2 daily flights to JFK, morning and afternoon
They operate three daily flights to JFK, and two to EWR.

But thats all; not very much for Americas biggest metropolitan area.
They have numerous other flights from LGA and EWR.

-Will



"She Flew For What We Stand For"
User currently offlineJoFMO From Germany, joined Jul 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 7318 times:

"They have numerous other flights from LGA and EWR"

But thats all only feeder tarffic for their hubs. United presence in NYC is very low compared to DL, AA or CO.


User currently offlineSevenheavy From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 1155 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 7270 times:

As stated by safetydude VS operate 3 x daily to JFK. However these services are operated by 2 x B744 and 1 x A346. The passenger capacity is nearly 1000 passengers per day as well as a massive cargo capacity, mainly due to the cargo capabilities of the A346. I am not familiar with exact UA configs but this has to be around 600 pax per day more than UA carry, no to mention the cargo.
With this in mind I would certainly say that UA do indeed have the weakest presence out of BA/AA/VS/UA. However the likes of AI/KU have successfully operated relatively low frequency service to JFK and seem to do fine. I know they are continuation flights but a large number of their pax are still ex LHR, and UA has a similar setup eastbound, feeding their flights with pax from LAX/SFO.

Regards,

SevenHeavy



So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
User currently offlineThrust From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 2688 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 7219 times:

Yes, JFK-LHR will survive. United's and AA's LHR routes are their most coveted...very profitable indeed. I don't expect United will cease any of their LHR routes until they die.


Fly one thing; Fly it well
User currently offlineCaptain_777 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 295 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 7169 times:

I just flew UAL956 JFK-LHR on August 11th. The load factor was approx. 85%. I would say it will survive, and they would not discontinue this route.

User currently offlineJfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3376 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7071 times:

UA is in bad shape and a lot of that has to do with bad decisions. One of those bad decisions is their route structure out of NY (JFK/LGA/EWR)
Both NRT and LHR should be with 747 aircraft. These are valuable slots that are being wasted. They also have watered down their domestic presence at LGA and EWR to hubs only.At one point they had major operations at all three airports.
Truly a waste, truly a mess, truly United.

Maybe that should be their no slogan.

PJ



User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 17, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7052 times:

Both NRT and LHR should be with 747 aircraft.

And fly them mostly empty?

They do well with the routes the way they are. More would be wasteful, and that would be a bad decision.

You don't see AA with 747s on their LHR or TYO services.

N


User currently offlineA330323X From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 3039 posts, RR: 44
Reply 18, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7030 times:

On the other hand, an airline in either country can put their code on a flight between the US and LHR on any of those four airlines. For instance, Continental puts their code on a Virgin flight from EWR to LHR.

That's not at all true. CO placing its code on VS flights to LHR is an extrabilateral authority, which no one else is able to get.

BD has tried to get on several occasions, and been denied, authority to place its code on UA flights between the U.S. and LHR.

See http://dms.dot.gov/search/searchResultsSimple.cfm?numberValue=15758&searchType=docket, for example.

US would also love to place its code on UA flights to LHR, but it can't either.



I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
User currently offlineMsh744 From United States of America, joined May 2002, 463 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 6942 times:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Msh744



I flew UAL JFK-LHR-JFK in May 2003, and on the LHR-JFK flight, there were 61 passengers on our 767-300... I hope the loads have gotten a little better since then (it was nice to have an entire row of Economy Plus to myself, though).

-Msh744


User currently offlineHz747300 From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2004, 1654 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 6475 times:
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All my 777 flights on the UA JFK/LHR (Sept 03), but then on the return I flew LHR/JFK on the 763, and there could not have been more than 50 people on the flight. The 763 flight was in Mar 04.


Keep on truckin'...
User currently offlineN1120a From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26354 posts, RR: 76
Reply 21, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 6411 times:

LAX-LHR will survive. They fill that flight so much that when I flew it, in the middle of winter, we had some turbulance on our initial climb and the F/O on Channel 9 asked LA Center for a different altitude. The one he offered she had to reject because we were too heavy. And this was on a 772ER. We had to have been full of cargo, PAX and luggage. There was talk for a while that they would upgrage the route to 744 because of loads and the need to park some 772ERs because of finances


Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 6342 times:

On the other hand, an airline in either country can put their code on a flight between the US and LHR on any of those four airlines. For instance, Continental puts their code on a Virgin flight from EWR to LHR.

Actually, no they can't. In fact, the CO/VS arrangement was entangled in other side-legislation concerning the bilateral.

That's one reason CO has 1st dibs into LHR from the US side, should the bilateral be ammended without annulment.


User currently onlineFlyCaledonian From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2072 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 6223 times:

Firstly, BA actually operates 41 flights per week LHR-JFK (6 daily plus a six-weekly service), plus a further 19 flights per week LHR-EWR (2 daily plus a five-weekly service).

UA sold a number of slots to BA earlier in the year, and if I remember correctly one set of these was those used for the third daily LHR-JFK service (I think the other two slot pairs were used for extending flights to AMS/BRU).

As has been mentioned already, BA/AA sell their LHR-JFK services on frequency, UA relies on filling up the front cabins. It just prefers to concentrate on its ORD, IAD, SFO and LAX services.



Let's Go British Caledonian!
User currently offlineAerofan From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1517 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 5650 times:

UA will not give up the JFKLHR city pairing. NO matter how badly they do. It is prestigious to fly this pairing, and there are still one or two loyal pax who who will continue to fly no matter the lousy service received.

Think of all those senior mngrs and employees of corps who acquire the miles and then use them to upgrade on those cheap tkts....


25 NYCAAer : JFK-LHR is highly reliant upon business travel, and United does have some profitable corporate contracts on its JFK services, JP Morgan Chase among th
26 Whlinder : The Star Alliance needs to have one of their members flying JFK-LHR. Since UA is the only one that can, the route will stay.
27 Post contains images SafetyDude : The Star Alliance needs to have one of their members flying JFK-LHR. Since UA is the only one that can, the route will stay. Alliances really play a f
28 AA B777-200 : I know competition on the LHR-> US market is fierce. An AA insider told me that AA is very happy with its 777 performances on the JFK-LHR run (6 daily
29 Ordpark : The freight and mail loads out of JFK are HUGE......very few open holes.
30 Post contains images Thrust : I remember LHR-JFK being pretty full when I flew an AA Boeing 777 on the route...of course that was on January 3rd, 2003, I believe, so I'm not really
31 Jasper711 : As one of the most arguably prestigous routes in aviation, there is no way UA will pull out of this sector. The day that it does will mark the beginni
32 UALFAson : Once again, a legitimate question involving UA that can't be answered or discussed without a few extraneous UA-bashing posts thrown in. I guess some t
33 Chris78cpr : I have flown the UA route LHR-EWR twice returning through ORD/IAD-LHR both times! I enjoyed those flights and i remember them being at 95% capacity at
34 Ryanair : This is a blue chip route. There is no question about it.
35 Whlinder : Alliances really play a factor in that decision, as if it is to the airline's extreme benefit to cancel JFK-LHR, LH, for instance, could do JFK-FRA-LH
36 Ord : "As one of the most arguably prestigous routes in aviation, there is no way UA will pull out of this sector. The day that it does will mark the beginn
37 Bobnwa : Whlinder, Don't forget the winner of a corporate contract goes to the airline that gives the biggest discount as the #1 priority. Other factors enter
38 UA772IAD : I think they'll keep the routes just to keep their presence at both airports. The problem with this route JFK-LHR is that it is so competitive. There
39 StargoldLHR : *** LHR to JFK is my most flown route in the world. At last count I have made this journey 26 times in 5 years. In fact in 2004 I have flown this rout
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