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Report: Airbus To Counter 7E7 In 2004  
User currently offlinePANAM_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4146 posts, RR: 90
Posted (9 years 12 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 7784 times:
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I was reading the Bloomberg news and came across a report that stated Airbus will potentially Launch a new model of the A330 possibly by year end. Cost of development would be US$2-3 billion. There has been much discussion of the A330 Lite/A350 on other threads and to me this report was merely affirmation of what has been discussed. The Financial press sometimes don't report Aviation too well/accurately and then Bloomberg updated the story. This time they quote Mr Noel Forgeard and he goes even further by not ruling out an entirely new design costing up to US$8 billion

I'm surprised by that. Talk of a totally new design. Maybe it's just Mr Forgeard "raising the rhetoric" in response to calls for the 1992 accord to be reviewed.

Here is the link to the original story. The update is subscription only and I cannot post it from home unfortunately. Anyway, If there is talk of a new design has anyone else heard of this? or is it just related to the A330/350?
http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&refer=us&sid=aaw23Pue2AbI

In this case i'd like to ask whether we'll still see the 200 7E7 sales by year end that Boeing executives still say is achievable. 62 down only 138 to go, Reports that VN want 10-15 but no SQ commitment. Either way, Airbus appear to be on the PR run and I thought I'd ask the more informed members if they've heard anything.

Regards


Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
56 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 971 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (9 years 12 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 7688 times:

Anyway, If there is talk of a new design has anyone else heard of this? or is it just related to the A330/350?

All of the A350 talk centered around updating the exisiting A330-200/300 not an all-new design. Many people (including myself) agreed that any A330 update would not be a long-term solution to the 7E7, maybe Airbus is shelving a near-term stopgap to focus on a true A330 replacement.

In this case i'd like to ask whether we'll still see the 200 7E7 sales by year end that Boeing executives still say is achievable. 62 down only 138 to go, Reports that VN want 10-15 but no SQ commitment

I get the feeling that Boeing was banking on SQ for a good deal of those 200 commitments. It is important to note that SQ did not "reject" the 7E7-3, there was no better aircraft than the 7E7-3 in this segement. Lots of it has to do with the proliferation of narrowbodies and LCCs in Asia...

VN is apparently very interested in the 7E7, a Yahoo group has reported they've already signed a MoI and are working closely with Boeing to firm the order. I would find it supremly ironic if the 7E7 was demeed a "failure for only scoring 62 orders in its first whole year of availability... though I would be disappointed in Boeing for over-hyping themselves


User currently offlineStickShaker From Australia, joined Sep 2004, 754 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (9 years 12 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 7514 times:

Its no surprise that Airbus will vigorously defend their territory - having produced an aircraft (A332) that effectively eliminated the B767 from the market they will not stand by while Boeing develop the 7e7.
What may come as a surprise is the speed and ease with which Airbus can do so.
The A350 (lite) would be a derivative of the existing A332 but with a new wing thus making use of many existing parts. Airbus have a much cheaper and simpler task ahead of them than Boeing that involves no technological risk. While Boeing may publicly scoff at any proposed A350 they would be acutely aware that if Airbus can produce the A332 (and shutdown the B767) then they are more than capable of producing an aircraft that can steal significant sales from the 7e7-3. Not only can they do so but at a fraction of the cost of the 7e7 program and without any of the risk involved in bringing so many new technologies on line in a production environment.
Having taken the plunge and committed $8B Boeing are in no mood to see their returns on that investment diminished - hence the vigorous political lobbying to cut off access to development funds for Airbus. Most of this lobbying will probably fall on deaf ears (in the EU at least).

Its worth looking back a few years to see how Boeing arrived at this situation.
During the 1980's and 90's Boeing endured a hiatus on new aircraft programs that exceeded 20 years - the only exception being the B777 (albeit a very good one). Boeing produced derivative after derivative but seemed loath to commit the funds for completely new programs - even the B777 was only launched after vigorous pleading from loyal Boeing customers (BA in particular). At the same time, Airbus was releasing a plethora of new models which themselves spawned even younger derivatives. One of these derivatives - the A332, has completely stolen the B767 market. Not long after the new millennium Boeing has found itself selling only B777's and B737's and faced being relegated to a niche player in an industry it once dominated - a daunting prospect for a company with Boeing's history. That this situation could occur is an indictment on the quality of the management at the helm during the 1990's who effectively sat on their hands while their major competitor was developing so many new products. This is why it is so important for Boeing that the 7e7 succeeds.
Airbus have the upper hand here - Boeing have their backs against the wall. They had no choice but to commit $8B to develop the 7e7 and having done so will face a tough battle for sales against Airbus who can develop competing products for a fraction of the cost and with little risk.
Boeing will use all commercial and political means at their disposal - they cant afford to loose.

Cheers

StickShaker


User currently offlineWidebody From Ireland, joined Aug 2000, 1152 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (9 years 12 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 7475 times:

Wow, difficult to look at it from such a global perspective, I would have thought Boeing had the upper hand in this one.

One other point that may also affect Boeings position is the 737. At this stage I don't see Boeing having the will or capital to develop a new 737 replacement, and I doubt they can get much more out of the 737NG series....on the other hand, Airbus can introduce the A320NG in a few years for a relatively small budget. Unless Boeing recuperate some capital on the 7E7 quite quickly, they could be in trouble in the narrowbody market over the next 10 years or so.


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21442 posts, RR: 53
Reply 4, posted (9 years 12 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 7465 times:

Welcome to the forum, StickShaker!  Big thumbs up

Your analysis does indeed look consistent with what we´ve seen so far.

If the A380 program is going well, Airbus may not even need major additional loans for the A350 development campaign... Boeing is mainly making noise at this stage, without much hope of really achieving much with it.

Sure, a re-negotiation of the 1992 agreement may be due, but an earlier european proposal to put it on the table again had not be taken up by the american side, so it would probably cut both ways - especially with the rather precarious issue of the japanese production subsidies being ready to get dragged into it.

"May you live in interesting times!" as the chinese proverb says... Big grin

[Edited 2004-09-07 14:49:43]

User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21442 posts, RR: 53
Reply 5, posted (9 years 12 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 7445 times:

Widebody: At this stage I don't see Boeing having the will or capital to develop a new 737 replacement, and I doubt they can get much more out of the 737NG series....on the other hand, Airbus can introduce the A320NG in a few years for a relatively small budget.

Any NGs (or NNGs in the Boeing case  Wink/being sarcastic) would primarily depend on the kind of improvement that could be achieved. And Boeing could potentially apply 7E7 technology more or less "out of the box" to their narrowbody line if the 7E7 should indeed be the imagined step forward. Airbus may be in better shape overall, but they could be forced to catch up technologically in some areas, even though they´re ahead in others. I don´t think it´s quite that clear cut in favour of Airbus...

But again, without a clear technological advantage, NGs would not make much sense. The 737NGs back then profited from a substantially more modern wing for the most part. Without any substantial potential for further improvement, I would not expect anything to happen soon.


User currently offlineSolnabo From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 852 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (9 years 12 months 1 day ago) and read 7402 times:

Mr Forgeard (my hat off for him) really sticks his neck out on building A330L/350  Big grin

 Big thumbs up Way to go Airbus  Big thumbs up

Micke



Airbus SAS - Love them both
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7953 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (9 years 12 months 1 day ago) and read 7330 times:

I have to admit, I'm a bit flabbergasted and would have thought that Airbus would rather develop a new A32x first with LCC in mind. The new 321 could then become a competitor to the smaller 7E7 variant.

The experiences made in this program could be used later to design an all new 300/310/330 family to compete with the 7E7.

The difference in both approaches is that Airbus now seems to defending a marked position by developing a competitor to one of its own (so far) successfull products.
In contrast, the development of a new A32x family would further attack Boeing and maintain one of Airbus' strenghts.

What if Boeing comes first and uses profits and/or loans to develop an all-new 737 family after the 7E7 is available? Foregard would find himself and Airbus in a defensive position for years - if not two decades -to come.



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (9 years 12 months 23 hours ago) and read 7238 times:

"Mr Forgeard (my hat off for him) really sticks his neck out on building A330L/350 "

While Airbus could and should be congratulated for engineering some good airplanes such as the 319/320/330-200, it cannot be meaningfully congratulated for ever actually taking a real business risk.


User currently offlineWidebody From Ireland, joined Aug 2000, 1152 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (9 years 12 months 23 hours ago) and read 7150 times:

Fair enough N79969, but that's business. Why introduce risk when you don't have to?

User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9781 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (9 years 12 months 22 hours ago) and read 7063 times:

Interesting posts here. When looking at Boeing and Airbus I thaught the following:

Airbus had a (major) advantage over Boeing when they introduced their new generation aircraft, being the A320 until the A340 with the commonality philosophy being a major selling point (IMO). Boeing had a disadvantage at that time. But....

Now Boeing is introducing a completely new aircraft, the 7E7 (just like Airbus did back than). Boeing can and probably will build a complete new generation of aircraft from the 7E7 design. So I see the same thing happening as was the case when Airbus introduced their new aircraft family (A320/330/340 and now the A380). If Airbus doesn't react quickly Boeing can have a major advantage over Airbus if they will design a complete new aircraft family based on the 7E7 technology. It's only more than logical that Airbus is trying to defend its territory.

NoUFO:

"I have to admit, I'm a bit flabbergasted and would have thought that Airbus would rather develop a new A32x first with LCC in mind. The new 321 could then become a competitor to the smaller 7E7 variant.

The experiences made in this program could be used later to design an all new 300/310/330 family to compete with the 7E7.

The difference in both approaches is that Airbus now seems to defending a marked position by developing a competitor to one of its own (so far) successfull products.
In contrast, the development of a new A32x family would further attack Boeing and maintain one of Airbus' strenghts.

What if Boeing comes first and uses profits and/or loans to develop an all-new 737 family after the 7E7 is available? Foregard would find himself and Airbus in a defensive position for years - if not two decades -to come."

I completely agree with you on this  Wink/being sarcastic

Airbus does have an advantage over Boeing for the moment, but they must not and probably will not stand still and do nothing. Boeing will become a very serious thread to Airbus if they come up with a new generation of aircraft based on the 7E7. Airbus knows that, so we will have to wait and see what both Boeing and Airbus will do in the coming years...


A388


User currently offlineKEESJE From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 12 months 22 hours ago) and read 6893 times:

Well, I think we can expect a hot autumn this year with Airbus testing the water on which direction to go & Boeing fanatically trying to sell 7e7's / discourage Airbus and it's customers to wait for an alternative.

IMO there are a few options for Airbus (& discussed in previous thread starters) to bring in as additions/replacement to current portfolio:

* A3XX series focussing on the "regional+" 100-130 seat market (318/736 are heavies, however questionable if Airbus sees this as their market..)

* An A322 to fill part of the 321/332 gab & grab some 757/310 replacements orders from regional/transcon services & leisure airlines.

* An A330-300ER 300 seat long range twin to go head to head with Boeings succesfull B777-200ER. (New engines to be developed ... 400kN /82k lb).

* A380 new stretched/shortened versions. Unlikely in the next 4 yrs IMO.

* An "A350" could go either :
- head to head with the 7e7-3 (short/medium haul, most likely IMO, 757/762/A300/A310 replacement) or
- ad extra range to the 332 (unlike IMO, A332 has a good range (e.g. lots of US/European 332s at NAR), so it would be a big investment for a small market segment).



IMO the A330/A310 replacement gab, 190-240 seat short/medium range is most clear. A bigger 320 series or light 330 based variant seems most likely.



User currently offlineNavion From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1013 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (9 years 12 months 20 hours ago) and read 6394 times:

Yeah, it's easy to stick your neck out when it's not your money...and spare me the bulls**t about Airbus isn't subsidized etc...the fact is, no matter what you call it, they always have plenty of money to produce whatever they need whenever they need it. It's right there in front of all of us folks, just wake up and look at the obvious. There have been so many articles in so many financial publications which discuss the ways Airbus can shift their financial burden and Boeing can't, but how many of the teenagers on this forum read such periodicals and publications such as the Wall Street Journal, probably about one or two. Jeez, this Airbus financial stuff is getting ridiculous.

User currently offlineAreopagus From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1369 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (9 years 12 months 19 hours ago) and read 6205 times:

Stickshaker: During the 1980's and 90's Boeing endured a hiatus on new aircraft programs that exceeded 20 years - the only exception being the B777

Suppose we play that game (which is all it is) with Airbus and exclude the A320. Then Airbus had no all-new aircraft between the A300 (1973) and the A380 (2006), a span of 33 years.


User currently offlineHz747300 From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2004, 1668 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (9 years 12 months 19 hours ago) and read 6138 times:
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This is too funny. Airbus's attempt here does not even pass the laugh test.

The only reason this is not ROTFL funny is that there are lots of jobs at stake and poised for ruin with Airbus's piss-poor decision making. They will have screwed themselves. Toulouse will be full of soup kitchens and bread lines in about ten years.

Also, if the 7E7 project is a failure, it is a big sh!t sandwich to which Boeing has to take a bite. If the A380 is a failure, they just simply do not have to pay back the loan.



Keep on truckin'...
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 15, posted (9 years 12 months 19 hours ago) and read 6136 times:

Um. The A330 and A340 are all new airliners.

Just because something is the same width as something, doesn't mean it is the same as that something. Despite being 222 inches wide, the fuselage of the A330/340 is a completely different construct than the A300/A310.

N


User currently offlineNWA330Tony From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 119 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (9 years 12 months 18 hours ago) and read 5910 times:

Now I know its early and a final descision has not been made but if airbus goes ahead and recofigures the A330 to make this A350 is there chance we may see the A350 take 1st flight before the B7E7??? I mean if its just switching some materials and keeping almost the same design as the A330 wouldnt it be much easier for them to reconfigure thier production lines etc and have thiers sooner, ahead of boeing? And if so how big of an effect do you guys think it will have on 7E7 sales? I would imagine those loyal airbus customers who are stongly considering the B7E7 might grab the A350 if they know its coming.

I mean in just my opinion i would imagine it would be much easier for airbus cause they can eliminate alot of disign planning, and production as opposed to boeing having to deal with a whole new design.



User currently offlineKim777fan From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 510 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (9 years 12 months 18 hours ago) and read 5836 times:

"I mean in just my opinion i would imagine it would be much easier for airbus cause they can eliminate alot of disign planning, and production as opposed to boeing having to deal with a whole new design."

With all due respect, this sounds like Boeing's own mistaken thinking with the 767-400 going against the all-new 330.

Why would that all of a sudden work for Airbus with the A350 against the 7E7 when it didn't work for Boeing???


User currently offlineScorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 5028 posts, RR: 44
Reply 18, posted (9 years 12 months 17 hours ago) and read 5645 times:

The only reason this is not ROTFL funny is that there are lots of jobs at stake and poised for ruin with Airbus's piss-poor decision making.

Have you been living under a rock these past few years? This 'piss-poor dcision making' did make Airbus the largest civil airline manufacturer...

They will have screwed themselves. Toulouse will be full of soup kitchens and bread lines in about ten years.

...and you'll STILL be in need of a life.


User currently offlineWidebody From Ireland, joined Aug 2000, 1152 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (9 years 12 months 17 hours ago) and read 5641 times:

True Kim777fan, but look at how well the 737NG did against the A320 Family. I guess it depends on the scope of the modifications.

User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 20, posted (9 years 12 months 16 hours ago) and read 5448 times:

Wow... I feel like it was only yesterday, or perhaps the day before that, when we were last running through this discussion...

... errr.... wait...

... that was just around one or two days ago!

Anyhow, just for all of those that still have not understood the reasoning or the success of Airbus' type of, and I quote, "piss-poor decision making": when you've just gone through two years of running up profits in excess of 800 million euros and have just finished the first half of the current year with more than one billion euros in profits, in what way does that qualify as "piss-poor"??

If that were, in fact, "piss-poor", then you can bet just about anything you own on the fact that there'd be lots of companies lining up to take lessons in how to make "piss-poor" decisions like Airbus.

Regards,
Frank




Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineRabenschlag From Germany, joined Oct 2000, 1007 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (9 years 12 months 16 hours ago) and read 5329 times:

re all those complaining about airbus being subsidized:

europe luckily is a free continent where every government can decide to use tax money as it wishes. by democratic elections, the majority of europeans support this practice.

if you dont like freedom, go visit north korea!



User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12508 posts, RR: 46
Reply 22, posted (9 years 12 months 16 hours ago) and read 5274 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Suppose we play that game (which is all it is) with Airbus and exclude the A320. Then Airbus had no all-new aircraft between the A300 (1973) and the A380 (2006), a span of 33 years.

So the A330 and A340 would be figments of my imaginations then?  Insane



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineAvObserver From United States of America, joined Apr 2002, 2472 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (9 years 12 months 15 hours ago) and read 5217 times:

"europe luckily is a free continent where every government can decide to use tax money as it wishes. by democratic elections, the majority of europeans support this practice."

Rabenschlag, that's true but ultimately, the World Trade Organization has authority to regulate how much of these tax-dollars can be used to fund export products like airliners. If the two disputing sides can't resolve their differences, it falls in their court. Neither the U.S. or the E.U. can likely proceed with impunity in these matters if the other challenges its right to do so. The W.T.O. would have to make a ruling to avoid a protracted trade war. As the arbiter of fair trade, the W.T.O. acts if it decides its guidelines are being abused. All W.T.O. members like the U.S. and E.U. members must comply with such a ruling once it's made; they can't simply do as they wish.

"Toulouse will be full of soup kitchens and bread lines in about ten years."

I really wish posters would steer clear of incendiary lines like this one. It's been used before and created a firestorm the last time. It's hot enough, here!

My only comment on the Airbus 'focus' on countering the 7E7 is that it doesn't as yet seem focussed, They go from being "unconcerned" about the 7E7 to looking at a reengined A332, to looking at a short-range, rewinged A332 to talking about a possible all-new design, which is what I've said they must do. It doesn't appear they're really sure just what to do, yet. Given that, it seems unlikely to me they can meet the 7E7's E.I.S. date unlesss they go with a quicky derivative, to me, not a good move. Rushing into this is probably the worst thing to do, it might guarantee the resulting airplane would end up inferior. They must decide between a lower cost/risk derivative which could meet 7E7 E.I.S. but fall short of true competitiveness OR go the distance to take the much costlier but much more competitive clean-sheet design which will hit the market 3 or so years later but be a lot more formidable against the 7E7, perhaps even better, further advancing the state of the art in efficiency. It seems to me, the latter approach is by far, the best in the long run. Thanks.


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 971 posts, RR: 51
Reply 24, posted (9 years 12 months 14 hours ago) and read 5180 times:

Well, I think we can expect a hot autumn this year with Airbus testing the water on which direction to go & Boeing fanatically trying to sell 7e7's / discourage Airbus and it's customers to wait for an alternative.

I think we should all be prepared for Airbus to have at least one false start, a la 747-500/600. There are too many variables at work in this industry for the first draft to get everything right.

Some sources say the 7E7 of Jan-03 was another 2+3+2 aircraft, that only officaly changed to 8+ abreast around May-03. As much as Boeing got harassed for the 747-X proposals, I think we should prepare ourselves for reality now.

* An A330-300ER 300 seat long range twin to go head to head with Boeings succesfull B777-200ER. (New engines to be developed ... 400kN /82k lb).

Say good buy to the A340-300 IMO... it is a bit of a loner in the A340 family. Could Airbus build a heavier A333 buy transplanting the A345/A346 wing?

Airbus have the upper hand here - Boeing have their backs against the wall. They had no choice but to commit $8B to develop the 7e7 and having done so will face a tough battle for sales against Airbus who can develop competing products for a fraction of the cost and with little risk.

Boeing is by no means is the underdog in this scenario. Unless Airbus completly guts the A332 and rebuilds it on an investment the scale of the 7E7 project, they simply can't match the 7E7. The same investment that Airbus made evolving the A300 into the A330 will be required to make the A350 a true 7E7 competitor. My reasoning is as follows-

While reduced opperating cost are the driving force behind the A350, this does not address the countless versatility advantages of the 7E7

We've already mentioned that Airbus would (like Boeing) have to build two aircraft to go after both the 7E7-8/9 and 7E7-3. We could argue new aircraft versus update all day long, and while the A350 could come very close to the 7E7, there will always be a hint of "anything you can do, I can do better." Think about the common engine pylon, 8500 nm range, cargo capacity rivaling a 772ER.... the list goes on and on

Even if A350 matches the 7E7 in some areas, there are so many minute advantages across the board that, when added up, gives the 7E7 has a huge lead. Without a capital investment on the scale of the 7E7, Airbus will likely only gain orders from its loyal customers.

Most importantly, don't forget the 777. In the past, the 777 (while a great project) didn't have the support the A340 had from the A330. Now it does. As a package deal, the 7E7/777 looks much better than the A330/A340. Air New Zealand was pinned as a sure-fire Airbus order by many people....


25 Gigneil : Today's Washington Post confirmed Airbus to enter the fray by year end, and confirms that an all-new aircraft with an $8b budget is likely. Say good b
26 UA772IAD : This is a pretty bold move. The world's economy won't be ready for three new lines- The A380, the 7E7 and now a new Airbus. Shouldn't a manufacturer w
27 Gigneil : We'll just have to see where this goes... because it seems as though the 330 isn't very popular. What? The 330 killed the 767 completely, and is still
28 Hirnie : In the early 90`s I read an artical in which Mr.Schremp (at this times chief of Airbus Germany) said that they respectBoeing as the biggest manufactur
29 UA772IAD : Gigneil: True the 330 did "kill" the 767-- but how many carriers operate a 330 vs. 767/777 (I'm not sure, I just know in the US and Asia, there are mo
30 RJ111 : This A350 does sounds rather rushed to me. Could allowing lessons to be learnt from the 7e7 and its revolutionary technology boost Airbus' position in
31 Whitehatter : Actually LH has never bought the 767. With regard to the rest, it's a question of timing. Many major European airlines bought the 767 such as Air Fran
32 Leskova : UAL772IAD, in the US, you should add Northwest as A330 operator... and to stay in North America, there's Air Canada as well (not the A332, but the A33
33 Widebody : Tasha, No doubt Airbus have reached the position they are in today with the help of government loans, however we must also keep in mind that the origi
34 Post contains images Planemaker : Just some thoughts on a potential "cheap & quick" Airbus approach to a 7E7 competitor... When Boeing was doing the 7E7 preliminary design they hadn´t
35 AvObserver : Yes they could "re-skin" a A330 "shrink" but a lot of the weight savings of the 7E7 composite approach (it's really about 50% by weight, not 100%, the
36 Post contains images Planemaker : a lot of the weight savings of the 7E7 composite approach (it's really about 50% by weight, not 100%, the 7E7 is still about half alloy) will also be
37 Sabenapilot : Obviously nobody knows what is in the minds of the Airbus engineers right now, but my best guess for the A350 will be: A long range medium capacity tw
38 Greaser : I wonder what Leahy is gonna do about his words about the 7e7 in the past. Anyway, Boeing has Airbus rite where it could hurt it most...if they had mo
39 StickShaker : "With a completely new wing, new engines, new skin, an updated cockpit and possibly a different hydraulic system, it looks as if the A350 is going to
40 Post contains links KEESJE : The 7e7 should have been launched 5 to 10 years ago. Fully agreed. http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1669219 I still sta
41 DeltaWings : If Airbus launches a qick 7e7 compeditor it cant possibly be as good as the 7e7. OK, it may be the best on the market before the 7e7 arrives, but then
42 Gigneil : We will most certainly see the A380 cockpit (basically that of the A340-600 plus the side console screens for the no flightbag concept) and interior m
43 Post contains links Areopagus : Gigniel: Um. The A330 and A340 are all new airliners. Just because something is the same width as something, doesn't mean it is the same as that somet
44 Areopagus : Sabenapilot: For the engines, no doubt it will be the same ones Boeing is heavily relying on to make most of their efficiency gains but without the bl
45 Post contains images Kalakaua : A380 ---> 747Adv B7E7 ---> A350 Hmmm... Get it?
46 Leelaw : "Factoring in the fact that the B767 has been flying since the early 1980s, while the A330 started appearing on airports in the mid 1990s, I'd say tha
47 Gigneil : After orders are filled, NW will have more than 20 A330s. US will have 19. You are right, however. N
48 AvObserver : "With a completely new wing, new engines, new skin, an updated cockpit and possibly a different hydraulic system, it looks as if the A350 is going to
49 DfwRevolution : All you guys are saying about the A350 is MOSTLY just speculation until Airbus firmly defines it. Right now, it's indeed as much vaporware as the Soni
50 Leelaw : "After orders are filled, NW will have more than 20 A330s. US will have 19." Actually, I was speaking strictly of the A332 in my prior post. NW will h
51 StickShaker : "Right now, it's indeed as much vaporware as the Sonic Cruiser was" Hi AvObserver I thought I would probably get a bite on that one. You are correct -
52 Leelaw : Why will the current cadre of A332 operators be necessarily or even strongly motivated to order an updated A332 design which introduces a completely n
53 PANAM_DC10 : Hello Thank you to all who have provided some good posts, much appreciated. I wasn't sure whether to post this at first given the source wasn't as goo
54 Gigneil : At $2B thats still quite a comprehensive program - a bit harsh to call it a stop gap measure. Indeed. I suspect that $2B is significantly more than Bo
55 DfwRevolution : Indeed. I suspect that $2B is significantly more than Boeing spent to develop the 767-400ER. I think the total for the 764ER came to about 900 million
56 PANAM_DC10 : Gigneil "The Post also made it sound as if an all new airliner was more the direction Airbus was thinking, but, it was a short bit in the business sec
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