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US Employees What Do You Think, Take A Pay Cut?  
User currently offlineUAL747DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2392 posts, RR: 12
Posted (9 years 10 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5772 times:

As most know I do not feel bad for the US Employees at all. If they voted to not give back and take the pay cuts they knew what would happen. I think unions are the worst thing to happen to business, they have taken many companies to the ground because they are selfish and power hungry. My thoughts are that most employees think that if the airline goes down they will have a job waiting for them at another airline that will take over routes that US had. They will have a rude reality check! Other airlines will call back all of their employees before hiring anyone from US and even then when the do open up positions US employees will have to apply just like anyone else. They will be treated like any other new hire and be paid like any other new hire. The other airlines are not doing very well either and they are not about to do any special favors for Ex US employees.

I want to hear your thoughts. Did you vote to give back? What do you think about the union? What will you do when the airline shuts down? Are you looking for another job now?


/// UNITED AIRLINES
57 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineIL76TD From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 289 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (9 years 10 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5735 times:

yea, i've always found it funny that unions will reject pay cuts that will keep a company in business and keep the people employed, and in doing so cause the company to go bankrupt, at which point all union contracts are voided and the resulting loss of jobs and PAY is much greater. I agree partially that unions are bad for business, but i feel that union management is more at fault than the actual members.

User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 2, posted (9 years 10 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5710 times:

I would have to agree with the original poster on this....Welcome to my respected user list.

US employees are in for a violent wild roller-coaster ride...they will see that after US folds, if they do, that there will be no other job waiting for them at other airlines unless they get very very very lucky. Hopefully they'll think twice before rejecting the company's latest proposal after all, the management at US has the scissors to cut the strings on one's employment AND the company's status too....



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineNewbieflyer From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 3 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (9 years 10 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5683 times:

NO,

I have to entirely disagree with at least part of your post. Unions are not inherently bad for business. In fact, if it weren't for unions we wouldn't be enjoying a GREAT deal of the workplace protections that ALL of us have these days. Union members fought, starved, and DIED for those rights that we all now have.

Even though modern unions sometimes make bad decisions and exercise their power in wrong ways, that does not mean the idea of unions is bad. If it wasn't for the power of organized workers, no individual worker would have any power.


User currently offlineCxa340 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 51 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (9 years 10 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 5665 times:

I have friends that have worked in both the management, and the unionized side of airlines, and what I do not understand is when did the unions start making labor relations a war between their unionized employees and any non-unionized employee? Simply put, when did they decide to start battling against not only the company leaders, but anyone with a college degree working in an airline office?

I agree that certain unions still to this day have a place in certain industries, but the airline industry is seeing something very different. What has happened at both US and UA is that once concessions were asked for, the unions demanded non-unionized positions suffer unfairly as well as their own staff. Why is it that both UA and US, not to mention the other airlines, are having major problems finding college graduates to work in accounting, analytical, and computer related positions? These companies have been left with such little cash by which to find and hire qualified employees for these positions, that slowly they are decapitating the head of the organization. If an accounting/computer science/business/marketing/analytical field applicant with a good college degree can expect to earn 40K a year at another company, even being fresh out of college, why should they be expected to earn less at an airline? Conversely so, if a customer service agent for a phone, insurance, or utility company can expect to make 25-30K a year, why should they be demanding 45K at an airline? Why is the employee with the harder to obtain skills is becoming the target of the union for elimination, while demanding the employee with the more easily obtained skills become the more costlier liability, and in greater numbers?

I do not feel terribly bad for the US employees anymore, I have tried but no longer do I feel they are just suffering from the result of poor mangement decisions. When these employees, by themselves and through their unions, demand wages and benefits that make their company's margins so small, their basic product so expensive, and their financial stability and future uncertain, then I cannot feel bad for them when they suffer the consequences of their actions. These employees, like many unionized employees, refuse to take responsibility for their own actions, just as their management should take responsibility for theirs. When the average American family has a csi of aprox 60K a year, when a customer service agent with only a high school degree in other fields makes only 25-30K annually, then I cannot feel sorry for the flight attendent, customer service agent, ramp agent, or ticket agent who demands a higher wage compared to their counterparts in other industries, offers no more real skills than a high school education and a few weeks of training, and in the process helps to put their core product out of the financial reach of the millions of customers who are needed for their company to survive. The wage concessions offered at US were never unreasonable given the job function, training, skill level, and education of the employee when compared to comperable salaries for that same position within other industries. I have to feel that many of these employees are going to encounter a rude awakening to find out their airline skills will be in limited demand in an economy that demands a college education and skills in math and science, and not a high school diploma and a few years experiene ticketing passengers, or serving meals at 35,000ft. I'm sure many of them can find work in a call center near you for 25-30K a year, welcome to the economic reality of the semi-skilled worker.


User currently offlineNKP S2 From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 1714 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (9 years 10 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 5624 times:

US Employees What Do You Think, a ( another ) Pay Cut?

Is this directed at the minority percentage of employees remaining after mainline is shrunk and alter-egoed to express/RJ-ed down to around 100 A/C?

Or is question posed to the remaining majority who are somewhat reluctant to vote themselves out of a job? ( while helping to bankroll the above move )

Lots have already left, and are leaving, the urgency depending upon the degree of financial planning and security they posses. Lots and lots of those pigeonholed as possessing minimal education and skills ( due to the jobs they hold ) are in fact quite educated and have gone and are going their own way outside the industry, or their own businesses. They worked in the airlines because they enjoyed the work and it was a decent living. When the breaking point to where it is no longer worth it is reached....then it's time to move on. There is life outside of the airline industry. However, lots of others ( and I do mean lots ) have gone to those carriers that would "never hire formerly unionized employees" ( or somesuch rhetoric...JetBlue hiring many ) or non-airline aviation positions. No, for many, round 3 is enough, especially if round 3 means falling on one's sword to the benefit of those that have cut so many's compensation and furloughed so many others. Depends on their personal preference. How this all flies with some peripherally informed denizens of of an enthusiast website is of no consequence to those making actual lifetime decisions ( as opposed to just conversation/kibbitzing ).

Poll: Irrelevant. Flame bait.

[Edited 2004-09-11 15:15:23]

User currently offlineTxAgKuwait From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 1803 posts, RR: 43
Reply 6, posted (9 years 10 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5591 times:

A few thoughts for UAL747DEN, who doiesn't seem to grasp the history of this particular situation.

Airline management is neither inherfently good nor bad. Unions are neither inherently good or bad. That's the first key point.

Unions are there to represent employee groups during negotiations concerning compensation, work rules, the like. Management's responsibility is to look after the shareholder's interests and avoid giving away the farm.

In the case of USAirways, the employees have been through one bankruptcy and two rounds of wage concessions. Their management has taken these concessions and done.....NOTHING. At least nothing constructive.

A lot of folks are assigning blame to the unions for a possible USAirways failure. While that may have been true with some carriers in the past, this time I think you can hold the company's management pretty much solely responsible fot their demise should it occur.

Unions have not been responsible for flawed business plans. USAirways overall structure and system is flawed to the point that, even if all the employees worked for free and there were NO labor costs, the ASM cost would still be very high.

Although in terms of overall dollars and cents the multi-million dollar "golden parachute" severance packages that USAirways executives walked away from the company with were a drop in the bucket, the damage to employee morale and labor's perception of their so-called company leadership has been huge. The company has, in essence, been rewarding management for getting them in the mess they are in.

It is especially bad that they would hand over several million to an executive responsible for getting them into this mess at the very same time they are cutting pay, not to mention pensions, while laying off employees, yet hiring new ones for their subsidiary companies at substantially lowered pay scales.

USAirways has even been awarding management bonuses so that they can "retain their high quality management personnel." Excuse me? If this is high quality, please don't show me the slightly defective on the discount rack. I am not sure, but I think the company would have done just as well to grab the guy on the street corner holding up a sign "will work for food", give him two cans of green beans and a box of macaroni, and appoint him executive vice president. Certainly, they could not have done any worse.

There are unionized carriers out there....Southwest comes to mind......that continue to prevail and be successful with a unionized work force. Thus, the union=bad, non union= good argument doesn't hold up.

Bottom line - should USAirways employees suck up another round of concessions? Hoss, that's not for us to say....only the employees affected by the decision should make that call. However, after what the employees have already done......my response to management would be to go pound sand.



User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 10 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5567 times:

UAL747DEN:

After working five years in the airline industry I have seen both sides do some incredibly stupid things. So for you to point the finger at one and not the other is somewhat naive.


User currently offlineCoa764 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 328 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (9 years 10 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 5546 times:

UAL747DEN

My first question to you is: Do you work for an airline?

If the answer is "no" then what business do you have criticizing unions as well as commenting about issues like pay cuts. The problems at US started years ago and have been compounded by the events over the last few years to the breaking point this Sunday. Those employees have already given back over 1 billion over the last two years how much bleeding do you expect them employee group to do? You might be thinking that making below your min annual cost of living is better than being out a job, well which is the worst of the two evils?

Take your grocery store for example. You say unions are bad and that the employees that are represented are even worse, why? Why is it so bad that someone that scans groceries for a living wants a little better quality of life for themselves? They work in a grocery store you moron, it isn't like they get a lot to begin with! Wake up high speed, those unions are there to protect them from the Super Wal-Mart's of the world. How well is the quality of life for that single mother of two working two jobs, one at Wal-mart 29 hours a week with no benefits because they cap her hours just below full time status. If she ever gets full time she also gets one week of vacation after one year and lousy benifits after six month with no overtime to speak of. The whole time under constant pressure to do right by everyone because she can be let go at any moment not to mention her pittance annual raise that is based off of how well you perform (translated: does your manager like you or not). That same mother of two working at the grocery store under a union contract gets a little more pay, guaranteed annual raises (based on a scale agreed to by both sides), benefits, vacation, and some sort of job security provided under the terms of the contract.

UAL - Those employees have given back 2.5 billion back in pay cuts and they are still in bankruptcy with a 30 September deadline to present a restructuring plan. 2.5 billion in give backs could still lead to the unemployment line so who is right and what is better for the individual that is actually involved in the process. It is real easy to sit behind you computer and criticize, anonymously I might add, on A.net the actions of others but until you are actually impacted you really have no platform from which to base your criticism. You profile says you will be flying soon, if and when you get on with an airline and a seniority number come on back and discuss your aversions to organized labor and until then back off of the issues you don't understand.



Please oh please Mr Moderator Nazi, dont delete my thread.
User currently offlineAa717driver From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 1566 posts, RR: 13
Reply 9, posted (9 years 10 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 5489 times:

Having voted for at least three concessionary contracts to try to keep my job, and having lost it after I voted the last time, you've got to say what's the point?TC


FL450, M.85
User currently offlineWbmech From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 10 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 5451 times:

There has to be point where the employees take a stand against inept management. Each time US management comes to the employees it is do or die. Well maybe the unions are finally calling US' bluff.

User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7526 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (9 years 10 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 5421 times:

Actually it was smart of them to reject it, why, because even with the concessions they still would have gone under, so why not get as much money as you can before that happens.


"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineScootertrash From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 569 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (9 years 10 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 5400 times:

Great... Back from a killer four day trip and the first thing I find on A.net is another "armchair CEO flamebait thread." Well...

I won't ask if you work in the industry, UAL747DEN, because I can tell the by the tone of your post you do not. It is entirely possible that you aren't even out of college yet and are still getting support from mommy and daddy. Maybe, maybe not.

Your question to U employees (of which I am one, as a wholly-owned pilot) is entirely too simple. As for the pilots, it was not really relevant to the impending second bankruptcy that they agreed to the concessions. US Airways will file irregardless of ANY employee givebacks... They simply are not in a cash position to meet their loan covenants. It is as simple as that.

My opinion? As for the pilots, I think that their ALPA MEC should have at least given the pilots the opportunity to vote. I would have voted for the concessions (if I was a mainline pilot) as I feel it is better to have a little say in my loss of compensation than none in BK court. I understand that it is a tough decision for everyone involved, and I hold no ill will to anyone who votes either way.

You know kid (that is what you are), I have a heck of a dog in this fight. If US Airways liquidates I will probably lose my career. With two kids I can't go back and take another entry level job at some regional for $20K per year... Even if my wife works. 12 years of pouring my heart and soul into a job that I truly love will be gone. I don't expect you to understand, since you seem to have little perspective or life experience, but maybe you will begin to get an idea why I am angry that people seem to think it's all good for me to work for free. It ain't about getting rich, it's about supporting my family.

One last thing: As for your comment regarding how "bad" unions are, that is a bunch of crap. While there has been greed on both sides of the fence (I am the first on to agree mainline salaries have to be rationalized) ALPA and APA have fought management for nearly every safety enhancement in aviation in use today. From nav lights, to duty limits to CRM training... Unions have protected the lives of pilots, flight attendants and passengers. If you fly, to some degree you owe your continued existence on this planet to Unions.

Scooter


User currently offlineMilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1988 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (9 years 10 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 5390 times:

I get a real Kick out of the adolescents that post on this board concerning Unions. These kids probably drive new BMW's provided by their parents and have never had to work for the necessities of life. Or perhaps these posts bashing unions are written by adults who just don't get it. Without unions, there were be no laws against hiring children, no health care benefits, no 401K's, no pensions, etc.

If human beings think that their fellow human beings are no more than commodities like corn, or steel, or oil, and that wages should be as low as a pure market will place them, I feel very sorry for them.

The problem in the airline industry is not the unions. Delta is losing billions and only their pilots are unionized. Yet they have laid off thousands of non CBA workers, and are going to cut the pay of those that are still around. I do not want to debate that the Delta pilots need to make concessions and work for Southwest type wages, as I think they should, and if they don't, Delta Management should file Chapter 11. However, at Southwest, every worker group is unionized. Are the unions at Southwest the reasons for WN's success?

The problem in the airline industry is that many of the workers have no other skills that they can readily apply in other industries, and that the job situation, regardless of what the Christian's God, George W. Bush, claims, is very weak. Sure, there are jobs at $10.00 -12.00 an hour. Try paying a mortgage, or car payment on those wages. Pilots who make $100K-$250K a year cannot just quit and sell their skills elsewhere.

The problem in the airline industry is pricing. Pure and Simple. The planes are 75-80% full and the airlines are losing money. Everytime some airline tries to raise fares, another airline refuses to raise theirs, and the airline with higher fares is forced to rescind the increase. Unions have nothing to do with it.

Management at airlines have used labor wars to pit one group of employees against the other. Look at the Regional Jets and commuter subsidiaries of AA and DL. The cost of flying an RJ is about 11 cents per mile, but Delta's costs of 9.83 cents per mile system wide result in billions in losses. Yet Delta has increasingly dropped mainline service and substituted regional jets. Why, because they pay their regional flight attendants less than half of what they do at mainline, and the pilots make even less. Why do they fly airplanes that cost more to operate? So they can use ASA and Comair as a wedge against ALPA. Remember when Comair went on strike in 2000, which was the beginning of Delta's demise? Management "cancelled" aircraft orders by transferring the orders to other subsidiaries.

I don't blame the US Airways pilots one bit. They already have given huge concessions. Most (over 50% of pre 2001 levels) have already lost their jobs, or been forced to fly for the commuters. For the sake of the industry, they need to say no. And ALPA should force their employers at the remaining airlines to hire these men and women back with a priority. There are too many carriers, and perhaps the elimination of USAirways just might allow Delta and others to survive. Otherwise, a race to the bottom will continue. US Airways pilots take less. Then the other surviving carriers will want their pilots to work for the same wages. How low should the wages be? Should airline pilots work for peanuts like school teachers do?


User currently offlineMatt D From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9502 posts, RR: 47
Reply 14, posted (9 years 10 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 5378 times:

Without unions, there were be no laws against hiring children, no health care benefits, no 401K's, no pensions, etc.

You raise a good point, but greed flows both ways. If it weren't because of Unions, we wouldn't have seen as many layoffs and as much outsourcing as we have.



User currently offlineFoxiboy From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2004, 208 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (9 years 10 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 5370 times:

I have worked in this industry for the best part of 15 years here in the UK,and there have been both good times and bad I have been with a carrier that went under without warning, and due the impact of the sad events in NYC in 2001 I have been made redundant. I have had the misfortune of working for both bad and good companies in the past. However I think it is sad that some people who post replays on here need a kick in the pants, making it clear that they wish all the us air staff would looses their jobs in turn income homes etc and in some cases even worse, when will people realize that most people in This industry will bend over backwards for their employer as much as they can but you cannot expect employees to keep giving . They have bills same as management but unlike management they don't get the same size salary.
Point being why don't the management/shareholders give something back.
But I am one of the lucky ones who found employment in my chosen career
I know a hell of a lot that were not so lucky.
JUST THINK PEOPLE SOME OF YOU NOT IN THE INDUSTRY YET MAY BE IN THE SAME POSITION AS THE US AIR PEOPLE NOW.
Its so so sad to see airlines go and having to deal with the fallout


User currently offlineCoa764 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 328 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (9 years 10 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 5342 times:

If it weren't because of Unions, we wouldn't have seen as many layoffs and as much outsourcing as we have.

Actually depending on the language in the contract the company cannot outsource nor can it just lay off without going to the union first. I will give you an example of non-union layoffs that I witnessed first hand. In one day before noon Enron laid off the bulk of it's work force with no warning and the only reason anyone had the notion that something was afoot was the large police presence both in and outside the building. They cut folks in large groups and told them they were laid off, to leave the building immediately and that they would be contacted the following week of when to return for their personal items. In contrast at CO after 9/11 the company approached the union and told them that by this date x number of people were going to have to be cut so I knew what day it was coming. The other side of that coin is that when time came to recall I had a number to come back to. The other non-union employees in the company had little to no warning and no seniority number to return to. So in a way paying union dues is like paying for job insurance in that you know when it is coming and you know you get to come back.

[Edited 2004-09-11 18:32:26]


Please oh please Mr Moderator Nazi, dont delete my thread.
User currently offlineA330323X From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 3039 posts, RR: 44
Reply 17, posted (9 years 10 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 5331 times:

If they voted to not give back and take the pay cuts they knew what would happen.

Nobody has voted on anything! You're blaming the employees for voting down pay cuts, when they haven't even been given the opportunity to vote! If you want to blame someone, blame 4 members (a minority) of the ALPA MEC, don't blame the employees for something they didn't do.

Oh, sorry, didn't mean to let facts get in the way.



I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
User currently offlineTxAgKuwait From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 1803 posts, RR: 43
Reply 18, posted (9 years 10 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5295 times:

>>Nobody has voted on anything! You're blaming the employees for voting down pay cuts, when they haven't even been given the opportunity to vote!<<

Actually, the representatives voting were elected by union membership.

Their votes are proportional based upon the number of people they represent.

The union by-laws prescribe that a tentative agreement be sent to the union membership for a vote.....not just any and every management proposal that comes along.

The four representatives "holding the line" represent a majority of the union membership. Their 4 votes count for more than the other 8.

If the union voted on a proposal, and the company filed bankruptcy, and a BK judge abrogated the contract, the pilot's union would have no recourse to self-help. Thus it is very important that only a bona fide TA (tentative agreement) go to a vote.

The S1113 or S1114 (I forget which) letter that the company would provide the pilot's union (basically saying that if we do go to BK court we won't attempt to abrogate your agreement) was only good for 60 days.

During the negotiation (and I use that term loosely) process, the company continued to undervalue various concessions the pilots were willing to make, continued to increase the amount of concessions they were demanding, and, all things considered, can not be given credit for "bargaining in good faith" by the reasonable and prudent individual.

Oh, sorry, I didn;t mean to let facts get in the way.


User currently offlineA330323X From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 3039 posts, RR: 44
Reply 19, posted (9 years 10 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5261 times:

continued to increase the amount of concessions they were demanding

US increased the wage consessions because that's what ALPA asked them to do! ALPA said they'd rather have greater wage concessions, and fewer productivity improvements.



I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
User currently offlineTxAgKuwait From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 1803 posts, RR: 43
Reply 20, posted (9 years 10 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5249 times:

If you want to get REALLY specific, I believe what transpired was the union told the company "hands off our defined contribution pension plan" (which replaced the defined benefit pension plan tossed out in a previous round of concessions)...and when they were told that, the company came up with a wage offer which, depending on whom you believe, had 18-yr left seat pilots on Airbus/737 sized aircraft earning $58,000 per year.

User currently offlineA330323X From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 3039 posts, RR: 44
Reply 21, posted (9 years 10 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5220 times:

If you want to get REALLY specific, I believe what transpired was the union told the company "hands off our defined contribution pension plan" (which replaced the defined benefit pension plan tossed out in a previous round of concessions)...and when they were told that, the company came up with a wage offer which, depending on whom you believe, had 18-yr left seat pilots on Airbus/737 sized aircraft earning $58,000 per year.

Nope, I'm not talking about the pensions.

I'm talking about productivity improvements.

ALPA told US to increase the wage concessions, because ALPA didn't want JetBlue workrules. Then some pilots complained that US was asking for more and more concesstions.

Here's a quote from a recent letter to the pilots from Lakefield. (I know it's not necessarily the best source; there's a Pollock quote around too that I don't have time to look for at the moment.)

"Our original proposal had pay cuts significantly lower than the one the MEC rejected on Monday evening. But the steeper pay cuts you have been hearing about reflected the direction of the Negotiating Committee, which told us more than once that it would not accept many of the work rule and productivity changes that exist at the other low-cost carriers, and instead, wanted to make up the difference with higher pay cuts. We still believe this is the wrong approach and do not agree with the Negotiating Committee that forcing you into deeper pay cuts while ignoring critical productivity improvements is the way to transform into a competitive airline."



I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
User currently offlineTxAgKuwait From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 1803 posts, RR: 43
Reply 22, posted (9 years 10 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5212 times:

Well, A330, and I don't mean this negatively....but looking at your profile you are between 16 and 20 yrs of age. I was between 16 and 20 yrs of age, once upon a time, and was pretty certain that I knew everything. By the time I got to 30, I was pretty sure I didn't.....and my wife was always glad to help remind me that I didn't.

But here's my question...since you seem to be a pretty sharp guy:

How much should they make?

How much do you think that the USAirways pilots ought to be willing to accept? Certainly, this is a question well within the penumbra of this topic.

To keep it simple, let's just pick one type of aircraft. Let's say the A319/B737 size of airplane.

What would you pay a topped out pilot, per hour?

....I anxiously await your decision, and I am sure any USAirways pilots out there in internet land will also be looking forward to your response.


User currently offlineA330323X From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 3039 posts, RR: 44
Reply 23, posted (9 years 10 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5188 times:

Well, A330, and I don't mean this negatively

The hell you don't.  Laugh out loud

I was between 16 and 20 yrs of age, once upon a time, and was pretty certain that I knew everything.

Well I'm pretty certain that I don't know everything.

How much should they make?

How much do you think that the USAirways pilots ought to be willing to accept? Certainly, this is a question well within the penumbra of this topic.

To keep it simple, let's just pick one type of aircraft. Let's say the A319/B737 size of airplane.

What would you pay a topped out pilot, per hour?

....I anxiously await your decision, and I am sure any USAirways pilots out there in internet land will also be looking forward to your response.


I don't have answers to those questions, and I've never pretended to. Don't attempt to put words in my mouth and say that I'm advocating these concessions.

I generally avoid posting at all in these sorts of topics.

I've never given an opinion as to whether I think the concessions being sought by US are or are not fair.

Above, I noted that ALPA wanted additional wage concessions instead of productivity improvements. I merely pointed that out to correct the misconception that US was continually increasing its demands. I didn't say whether or not I thought ALPA's desires were a bad thing. Lakefield didn't think they made a whole lot of sense, but as long as the value of the concessions was the same, he was happy enough with it. It's ALPA's prerogative to bargain as it sees fit.

The only position I've taken, and continue to take, is that the pilots should be given the opportunity to vote on the concessions, that 4 pilots (a minority of the MEC) shouldn't be able to control the fate of 3,200. (And I repeat that if PIT/PHL are a small majority of the pilots, and the reps in question were elected by a small majority of PIT/PHL, they *were not* elected by a majority of the pilots.) I believe that the concessions would pass if the membership voted on them, but that's different than believing they should pass.

(And I've got to run, so I won't be able to respond again in the near future.)



I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
User currently offlineAa717driver From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 1566 posts, RR: 13
Reply 24, posted (9 years 10 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5153 times:

This was a PROPOSAL. Not a TA. With a TA, you get contract language(generally). The company could have nickel and dimed this proposal after its approval by the MEC to the point that it was unrecognizable from its present form.

The majority members(in terms of numbers represented) were right to refuse to put this out to the membership. Even an approval by the entire membership would have guaranteed NOTHING.

Everyone who is blaming the pilots for putting USAir in jeapordy must have had their heads in the sand for the past two years.TC



FL450, M.85
25 Post contains links SonOfACaptain : UAL747DEN, please read the following: (Source- Business section of the Dallas Morning News) “ Frustrated with their union leaders, hundreds of US Ai
26 Sllevin : You know, when Chrysler was in distress, he got great employee sacrifices. He also worked for nothing but $1.00 and a lot of stock options that would
27 A330323X : This was a PROPOSAL. Not a TA. With a TA, you get contract language(generally). The company could have nickel and dimed this proposal after its approv
28 UAL747DEN : Looks like I made many mad, some of you make a point others don't know what you are talking about. First, for the people that say its not the employee
29 Goingboeing : TxAgKuwait, You cannot blame everything on management in this situation. There is no example that I can think of where you can give 100% of the blame
30 Swardu : I see both sides of the fence here. Problem is the unions can only "react" based on what Corporate Management does. If management asks for cuts, the u
31 Flybynight : I work for a non-unionized company, so please do not assume that corporations will take advantage of their employees just because there isn't a union
32 TxAgKuwait : >>It is clear that many employees don't agree with the union and want a chance to agree to concessions but the union will not give them that chance.
33 XFSUgimpLB41X : Their pay has already been reduced...twice....and those concessions have been squandered by management. Why would they fall for a 3rd time? I have hea
34 UAL747DEN : XFSUgimpLB41X Writes: Their pay has already been reduced...twice....and those concessions have been squandered by management. Why would they fall for
35 Scootertrash : Flybynight: I believe your union helped you get a good benefits package and salary for many years. I think I need to restate that I am NOT a US Airway
36 XFSUgimpLB41X : Scooter- you a CA? with 1000 PIC you qualify for FedEx 500 for AirTran... theres some definite stability for ya- at least for a while...never know wit
37 Post contains links Coa764 : This is a great example because it fits into the airline industry perfectly. What you don't understand is that the store, or the airline has to attrac
38 TxAgKuwait : >>Wrong, LLC's aka the Wal-Mart offer lower prices because they have someone to undercut with prices. Again a point that was offered before you chose
39 Scootertrash : XFSU: Actually in the process of upgrading now... It's been a long time coming. Even if I had the 1000 PIC for FEDEX I am lacking the three lunar land
40 A330323X : They went to the workers (union workers) and asked AND GOT concessions...TWICE. Folks that had been making $40k saw their pay, benefits and PENSIONS d
41 Cody : Please don't think I am trying to be nasty, but I have a few thoughts. First off, management has to take a big share of the blame because first and fo
42 AirframeAS : I completely agree, however the employees are in charge of the unions. If you do not like what the unions are doing stand up against them. Overthrow
43 N1120a : Hey scooter, what is a lunar landing (I don't mean the Neil Armstrong kind)? Ok, so people are talking about US and how the pilots should keep giving
44 UAL747DEN : COA764, Im not worried about what you think. You must live in some imaginary world if you think that you are so respected in the industry that you cou
45 Jonesy869 : Well Ual747Den...pretty heartless comment probably not knowing anything about this situation...and if u work for ua...good luck ...not sure u are goin
46 Post contains images Aa717driver : UAL747 showed one of the problems with the industry. He comes from a long line of management and has ABSOLUTELY no experience doing the jobs his famil
47 Supa7E7 : Milesrich "Management at airlines have used labor wars to pit one group of employees against the other." Yes, it's called America!
48 Goingboeing : This is exactly what the WN A&P mechanics/cleaners did with the Teamsters and then voted in AMFA and got a contract quicker than the Teamsters ever co
49 AirframeAS : Minor correction. The Teamster's got the LUV mechanics a contract, and then they were voted out. This is something I didnt know. Question: The Teamste
50 QIguy24 : To be honest, I would have accepted a paycut if they could guarantee that I won't get fired after a year. I would rather have a paycut and at least ha
51 NKP S2 : Qlguy24, the whole debate is being distorted into a pay-cut = save your company...and by extension, your job vs status quo. Nowhere has this been addr
52 AeroFan : Take a pay cut? I don't think so. I think the CEO and people at that level should be the ones to take the pay cut and even be asked to leave. And with
53 LMP737 : AirframeAS: The mechanics at SWA are still under the IBT contract. When a new union is voted in they can't re-negotiate the contract until the current
54 NWAFA : Scootertrash, You are so correct!!! These "kids" (13-25 year olds on here who don't know SQUAT about business or airlines, except who has a IFE). I am
55 Post contains images Scootertrash : NWAFA: Thanks for the kind words. I have nothing against the "kids", even the armchair CEO's who bemoan US Airways' existence as a pox on the industry
56 Foxiboy : UAL747DEN:- NEVER POOP ON YOUR OWN DOORSTEP, just remember that its ok climbing up the ladder but on the way down you have to pass all those you shit
57 Greasespot : Here is something to ponder. If they do not take the pay cuts they lose their job....They then lose their houses and cars and go bankrupt. They get la
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