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Aerolineas Del Sur Delayed Again In Chile  
User currently offlineArcano From Chile, joined Mar 2004, 2406 posts, RR: 24
Posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4404 times:

HI!

As it's starting to get usual when it comes to Marsans, one more time their announcements have been delayed.

This time is Aerolineas del Sur, their operation within the domestic and international market of Chile. Their opening was intended for July, when they launched the project in March. In June, they said that the airline would start in September.

Now, the two institutions that allow an airline to operate in Chile: DGAC (technique issues), and JAC (aeronautics regulation) have informed that AdS are not ready to start. Marsans hasn't presented the insurance nor hasn't approved they procedures. JAC will have a general meeting on Sept. 23, but AdS is not in the plans. But, SKY Airlines (H2) has presented a complaint for banning Marsans.

Chilean regulation allows any foreign to set an airline in the country, owning 100% of the business. But, if a foreign airline wants to fly domestic, the origin country has to sign reciprocity with Chile. SKY claims that AdS is a foreign airlines disguised as Chilean airline, in this case it will be AR in Chile, so Argentina should open the skies for LA and H2, since all the directions for AdS will be decided in Buenos Aires, not in Santiago.

The owner of H2 has declared "we don't fear competition within Chile, but we disagree that a foreign company as Aerolineas Argentinas disguises itself as Chilean company, because it's not. Besides, AR has government dumping, as no airline in Chile".

LAN has declare that they are open and willing for free competition; they just regret Argentina is not.

My opinion? foreign or local... the more airlines we have, the best we are. Although I think Argentina is not playing fair, it's not a reason for us to be closed and, at the end, lose the benefits of more options. We'll see.

Regards )( Arcano


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69 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLuisde8cd From Pitcairn Islands, joined Aug 2004, 2570 posts, RR: 31
Reply 1, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4298 times:

What a/c and route will Aerolíneas del Sur will fly?

PD:Hmm Arcano this has nothing to do with this topic... but I was wondering about your signature. Wasnt Chile fully independent after 1826 when the last spanish soldier left the country? I think declaration is one thing, totally different from true independence


User currently offlineArcano From Chile, joined Mar 2004, 2406 posts, RR: 24
Reply 2, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4292 times:

Hola Luis:

AdS will start with some 732s flying to Iquique, Antofagasta, Puerto Montt and Punta Arenas.
They will fly internationally with a 742 to EZE, JFK, MAD and MIA.

As for the independence, I alredy explained in "south america busiest route", but here it goes: Chile became fully independent in 1810. The whole process lasted for 8 years (1810-1818), but for us, what matters (with first national congress, flag, army, etc) was 1810. We faced a 2 years reconquista, but for us this was just a part of the process. Many countries have been ocupied during their history (Chile, Peru, Panama, Afghanistan, Irak, etc), but you don't say they lost their independence. We started to manage ourselves in 1810, me sigues?

Regards



in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773 and 380
User currently offlineLuisde8cd From Pitcairn Islands, joined Aug 2004, 2570 posts, RR: 31
Reply 3, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4282 times:

Thanks for the info Arcano. Got another question, the SCL-EZE on the 742 will continue to MAD, JFK or MIA?

About the independence thing... here in Venezuela we expelled Caracas's spanish governor on April 19th 1810 and the blancos criollos took over the Cabildo, but we only remember that date as the "first shout of independence". Then we got 2 national holidays... July 5th 1811 (Declaration of independence) and June 24th 1821 (Carabobo Battle, where the last spanish troops were defeated). The latter one being the date when we were completely independent.  Smile


User currently offlineArcano From Chile, joined Mar 2004, 2406 posts, RR: 24
Reply 4, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4280 times:

Luis:

They've actually hasn't set properly the routes, so I don't know it they will stop in EZE for the abroad destination. I think EZE will be served with the idle capacity of the large aircraft, so I don't think EZE will be a stop.
Besides, as Chilean company they won't have rights.
_____________________________
Independence again: our last battle was in 1818. Not even a holiday for us, and many people forgot the date. There is no need that the independent process vision of Chile, Venezuela, Argentina or USA matches to each other. Each country is free to decide how, what or when they want to celebrate and feel independent. Maybe Venezuela doesn't feel they were independent in 1810 so you celebrate 1821. We know we bacame independent in 1810 as a fully formed republic with 3 branches (Government, Congress and Justice), with an invation in 1814 (reconquista), the end of the "Patria Vieja" period. Although the Patria vieja flag of ours does't look like our current at all. The current one is our third national flag:


Flag and coat of arms of the patria vieja



Transition Flag 1817



Current flag (1817) and coat of arms



Regards )(

[Edited 2004-09-11 21:38:44]


in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773 and 380
User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4292 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4243 times:

I'm starting to wonder why Marsans isn't really 'pushing' for this as loudly as he could...

It could be because he really does see that there is a significant degree of hypocracy in the whole thing. I was told that there could be another reason: the argentine domestic market may expand rather significantly in the summer of 2004-2005, at least the summer travel season could be historically good. And if macroeconomic conditions continue well, 2005-2006 could see continued fast growth, specially if the recovery in salaries continues.

So in the end, maybe he will need the planes he earmarked for Chile back home and wouldn't be that uspet if he can't set up an airline in Chile right away.



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlineLH526 From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 2347 posts, RR: 14
Reply 6, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 4222 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Yes, Arcano, and not very long till the dieciocho ... I'm proud of my second home country ... I'm half chilean!!!

I saw it coming, the plans sounded to god to be brought to reality in that short of time, and it was clear to me that there will be certain issues with the DGAC and the JAC, funny that there are always problems occuring with foreign airlines (like earlier with Aerocontinente, ...)

Let's hope the airline makes it into the air, however I doubt it will survive or at least make it during the critical 8 month period judging that special "friendship" argentinos and chilenos share  Smile/happy/getting dizzy (Every chilean knows what I talk about ... this sort of "love-hate" relationship)

I guess many chileans will avoid flying AdS as soon as they get aware that they fly a Argentinian airline, the prices won't drop much more (LAN's offers really are a bargain sometimes and SkyAirline with their very old fashioned fare system often struggles to compete with these fares on some sectors, but nevertheles they own a ~30% in chileans domestic market)

Mario
LH526



Trittst im Morgenrot daher, seh ich dich im Strahlenmeer ...
User currently offlineArcano From Chile, joined Mar 2004, 2406 posts, RR: 24
Reply 7, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 4213 times:

Mario: no Chilean avoided N6 even knowind they were peruvian. No Chilean avoids Havanna cafes knowing they are Argentine. No Chilean avoids Arcor chocolates knowing they are Argentine.
N6 got up to 20% share while they lasted. It seems your "german half" (  Big grin )is not very aware that we might have some issues about our bordering countries, but when it comes for comsumption, we are very wise buyers and we love fair fares and good service. If AdS provides that there would be no "friendship" issues. Maybe some idiot will avoid them for that, but it won't be the rule. We must be one of the countries that care less for flags when buying, but we are very demanding.
None of the local competitors of Home Depot, Sears nor Carrefour had to claim "chose us because we are Chileans ans they are not"... but they failed to their lack of knowledge of the Chilean consumer. Nobody remember the flags or boycotted them because they were foreigners. We are smarter than that. I'm sure if N6 wouldn't be criminaly managed, they would be a very important player know. Remember when they were banned, our authorities even talked to LB for serving our market and avoid LA's monopoly, which finally wasn't necessary due to Sky fast takeoff.

As a friend of mine told me, in Punta Arenas they are praying for AR to land soon there. I don't say it won't happen, I say It won't be massive.

Since you are half Chilean I cannot wish you a happy 18... just a happy 9!!!!

Saludos de tu medio compatriota!



in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773 and 380
User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4292 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 4194 times:

What? There are Havanna Cafes in Chile?? Well, no wonder Starbucks is steering clear South America.  Wink/being sarcastic


My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlineLVZXV From Gabon, joined Mar 2004, 2041 posts, RR: 37
Reply 9, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4186 times:

Hola todos!

A new topic on an old subject.

It's VERY simple. Marsans suffer from a chronic inability to see their plans through. 90% of their grandiose plans announced since 2002 have quite literally evaporated into thin air, or become "flans". The Asian routes have yet to launch. None of the regional subsidiaries are up and running, and only one of the proposed four is remotely close. Pluna is off. The Cargo conversions to the retired 737s and 747 seem to have been scrapped, and Executive Jet conversions are on hold. The oldest 737s have been retained. All they've succeeded is doing is the following:

  • Posting 2 consecutive years of profits (going on for 3, at this rate), solely due to a change of management which effectively forgave AR their staggering debt from the SEPI years (1991-2001).

  • Resuming direct services to BOG, and indirect services to CDG, LGW, MXP.

  • Adding 3 aircraft to the fleet (an A310, a B747-400, an MD-83), a small fraction out of the dozens of aircraft they planned to incorporate. Deliveries of additional B747-400s and MD-83s have slipped several months, while older orders such as for the A340-600 appear to have been shelved or potponed indefinitely.

  • Making AR totally self-sufficient in maintenance, upon receiving authorization from Boeing and Airbus to carry out D-Checks on the 747 and A340.

  • Repainting the entire fleet, and fusing (not merging AU with AR).


  • Meanwhile, two 747s were "borrowed" by parent company Air Plus Comet, who have also made good use of AR's MD-88 based in Europe, presumably to make up for their own shortfalls.

    What I sense is that AR, with the profits it is reaping in, is in a position to be flying to most of the promised routes and could even be seeking younger planes. During the SEPI years, when IB flogged their old DC-9s to AU for extortionate prices, AU was in a position to secure a far better deal, but the Spanish management prevented this so that IB would gain the most from AU's purchase.

    It's not because I am Argentine that I have developed a suspicion towards Spanish companies such as Grupo Marsans (which is basically a large tourism agency and a 2nd-rate airline), because in continuity from the SEPI years, a high level of unreliability, shiftiness and procrastination remain.
    As a Spanish company, they've succeeded in making AR economically viable (for now), but have equally proven hopeless at keeping promises or sticking to their word. Perhaps the Grupo Marsans is really in deep trouble and is trying to hide it? I mean what's causing all the delays? If money is not the problem, then what is?

    To all of you, may I recommend you take every Marsans "announcement" as BS until proven otherwise. Don't get your hopes up until you see prima facie evidence (and independent corroboration thereof) to back up their claims. If you expect nothing, you may one day be pleasantly surprised. Raise your hopes for AR any higher and you will most likely be disappointed...

    Thankfully, there is more to Argentina than the sad story of its aviation. Enjoy the alfajores, enjoy the beer, enjoy the sun and enjoy the girls. Cuidanse.

    Saludos,

    ZXV




    How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
    User currently offlineArcano From Chile, joined Mar 2004, 2406 posts, RR: 24
    Reply 10, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4142 times:

    ZXV: Indeed, I think we share a lot of the vision we have about Marsans, or at least that is what I think everytime I read in these forums any AR big announcement.
    But I do think AdS will see the light, or so has swore some executives of Aerolineas Argentinas in Chile I've met.

    Derico: why aren't them pushing harder? million dollars question. I'm not sure if you are right about the aircrafts they need, I think they have already selected the 732s they'll use here, after all those aircraft must be in registration processn already.

    And Havanna? yes! they started exporting alfajores, and now they have several cafes in many malls, I think they have even more cafes here than Starbucks does. IMO, Havanna should do it better here than St; their business model is more "latino".

    )(



    in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773 and 380
    User currently offlineLVZXV From Gabon, joined Mar 2004, 2041 posts, RR: 37
    Reply 11, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4111 times:

    Arcano:

    While I'm a little more optimistic about Marsans than I was about SEPI (with reason), I do have a fairly cynical outlook on their track-record, as I'm sure they could be doing a much better job for AR.

    The first two aircraft due for AdS are:

    Austral's B737-200Adv. LV-ZTE (1985-build)
    Air Plus Comet's B747-200B EC-IPN (1980-build)

    ...or at least provisionally.

    Saludos,

    ZXV




    How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
    User currently offlineDebonair From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2399 posts, RR: 4
    Reply 12, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4076 times:


    !Hola amigos!

    any web-page of Aerolineas del Sur yet available??

    muchas gracias chris


    User currently offlineArcano From Chile, joined Mar 2004, 2406 posts, RR: 24
    Reply 13, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4022 times:

    ZXV: Are you sure about that fleet? a single 732 would be a very bad idea for start; even Avant, National, Aerocontinente Chile and Sky started with 2 or 3 732s...
    With a single one they would have to flight the northern routes in the morning, and the southern routes in the afternoon (or viceversa), which would give them a very tight schedule and a real head ache in case of an emergency (from tires to engines).
    Besides, why would they need immediatly a 742 if they don't plan to fly abroad from the start?

    Debonair: not yet. They hasn't even registred the obvious one: www.aerolineasdelsur.cl (remember in Chile we don't use ".com" in our sites, just ".cl"). Maybe is a good idea to register it and later make some money by selling it to them!  Laugh out loud

    Regards )(



    in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773 and 380
    User currently offlineTBCITDG From Australia, joined Jan 2004, 921 posts, RR: 3
    Reply 14, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4009 times:

    I totally agree with everyone regarding Marsans and their "plans". I really do not understand what an airline has to do with opening hotels throughout Argentina, but this is yet another "scheme by the Spanish investors". (I still prefer them over IB)
    As for reciprocal rights, Isn't AR del sur a "sister" company of Aerolineas and not a sub?" Shouldn't the issue be with Spain and not Argentina since the parent company is Marsans/ Air Comet and not Aerolineas Argentinas (irrespective of the name and the close ties??

    PS: The second 744 for Aerolineas has been delivered and is at the hangars in EZE!!!! Another positive news!


    User currently offlineLVZXV From Gabon, joined Mar 2004, 2041 posts, RR: 37
    Reply 15, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3966 times:

    Arcano:

    AR may acquire a couple of "new" 737-200s for their Chilean operation, as sacrificing a few of their own with spring and high season on its way probably wouldn't be the most judicious decision, especially since the 737-500s are not due till November at the earliest and by years' end, two 737-200s will have to be permanently retired (LV-JND & -LEB, most likely). And so long as the "new" 737-200s wear CC-regs, they won't be breaking any laws.
    However, I think the plan was always to start the international flights in Chile at almost the same time as the domestic, hence the 747-200 would arrive very shortly after the 737(s). In addition, Air Plus Comet will have over-capacity as of say next month, as the European summer winds down and the airline will probably only need only one 747 (EC-IZL) to meet winter demand. Just speculating, but the reason AR's LV-OOZ left the fleet to join Air Plus was to replace EC-IPN for when it was transferred to AdS.

    ....TDG:

    Marsans is trying hard (an oxymoron?!) to create AdS as a Spanish company, but inevitably, Argentine greed will form part of the equation and yes it's possible that it will become an Argentine venture in a Spanish outfit instead of the other way round. Whatever the cordiality between Argentina and Chile, the transandean rivalry will continue to exist for many years to come. The rivalry isn't all bad, but just as it exists between many if not most countries in the world, so too will it between Argentina and Chile.
    As for the reciprocity of the relationship, well there we can only wait and see, but from a business perspective both AR and LAN undoubtedly want to have their cakes and eat them, although again, where is the surprise there?

    Saludos,

    ZXV

    P.S. Re the 2nd 747-400 for AR: BETTER LATE THAN NEVER!!!




    How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
    User currently offlineArcano From Chile, joined Mar 2004, 2406 posts, RR: 24
    Reply 16, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3928 times:

    XV and TDG:

    This is exactly the poinu in Sky's complaint: legally there will be nothing to say about them since they are becoming a Chilean company runned from Argentina (with Spain HQ). The issue is that this would be a disguise for avoiding reciprocity. That's the whole point in Sky statement. I think they are right, but better more airlines than just one.

    And again, I don't see the so called rivalry has anything to do in this play.

    BTW: Cerrillos closure is still a subject here... everyday you hear change of plans in Nubasa and Cerirllos fates. The last verison is that the State will build another runway, but apparently for FACH only...

    )(



    in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773 and 380
    User currently offlineLuisde8cd From Pitcairn Islands, joined Aug 2004, 2570 posts, RR: 31
    Reply 17, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3926 times:

    The last verison is that the State will build another runway, but apparently for FACH only...

    Would that new runway be used for the new upcoming F-16s? Do you know where they are planning on basing them?


    User currently offlineArcano From Chile, joined Mar 2004, 2406 posts, RR: 24
    Reply 18, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3919 times:

    Got me on that!
    There are many Air Force fields in all our territory where those probably would be landed.

    September 19th is our Armed Forces day, and we have a big parade. I think most of FACH aircraft displayes takeoff from El Bosque (where the Air Force Academy is) and Cerrillos and Pudahuel (as the 707 tankers. Remember that FACH has their own facilities in SCL, so called "Grupo 10").

    See the photo... Grupo 10 is the place you see at the right... the one conected to the runway by a diagonal. The second runway is currently in construction in the bareland you see parallel to the current one (also right side of the photo, not the green field).

    View Large View Medium
    Click here for bigger photo!

    Photo © Alejandro Ruiz Yañez



    )(



    in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773 and 380
    User currently offlineLuisde8cd From Pitcairn Islands, joined Aug 2004, 2570 posts, RR: 31
    Reply 19, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3915 times:

    Arcano,

    If I were Chilean and had to decide where to base the F-16s, I would base them up north where Bolivia is in their range. I really doubt they will base them in SCL, from that picture I can tell the military ramp is very small. Also those fighters are way too noisy to be based near a metro area like Santiago. Here in Venezuela they are based in Maracay, which is a medium-size city about 100km west of Caracas. Do you know when the FACH is getting them?

    PD: Welcome to the F-16 club  Smile


    User currently offlineLVZXV From Gabon, joined Mar 2004, 2041 posts, RR: 37
    Reply 20, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3897 times:

    Luisde8cd:

    A bit off-topic, but to answer you questions:

  • I think basing the F-16s near the Bolivian frontier would be a pointless exercise, since the only jet-powered combat aircraft in the FAB are AT-33s, of which 17 were recently upgraded in Canada (not all have returned, and not all are in service) with new avionics and glass cockpits. Bolivia has shown interest in A-4 Skyhawks (which would be upgraded to Argentine standard) and Argentina's latest version of the Pampa, the AT-63, which is now in production at the LMAASA plant in Córdoba, but being South America's poorest country, I doubt that military procurements take any precident in Bolivia's annual Budget.
    If Bolivia were ever to regain sovereignty of northern Chile, which politically and deomgraphically would be extremely messy and controversial, like Argentina over the Malvinas, diplomacy would be their only available option.


  • The dozen-or-so F-16s (including trainers) are -C and -D Block 50 variants, due for delivery as of next year, if I remember correctly. Late in the deal the FACH requested the inclusion of the long-range AIM-120 AMRAAM air-to-air missile, which was denied at first but then, when it was pointed out that the Peruvians already had the Russian ultra-long range (but ultra-temperamental) R-77 Adder, the US Government eventually approved the sale, to "balance the power".


  • I must say though, two things I fail to understand are why on earth Chile wants the latest F-16s PLUS AMRAAMs. None of their neighbours would dare engage in air-to-air combat with the FACH even now, least of all Argentina, and Peru is all show and no go. It's true that the FACH's Mirage Elkan/Pantera fleet has only so many years left, but surely the FACH could have opted for a more economical and less deadly package, especially if Chile is ever to truly befriend her neighbours.

    Now apologies for straying off-topic, but I believe questions need answering!

    Saludos,

    ZXV



    [Edited 2004-09-15 14:57:11]


    How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
    User currently offlineLuisde8cd From Pitcairn Islands, joined Aug 2004, 2570 posts, RR: 31
    Reply 21, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3862 times:

    Hey guys just started a new thread in the Military Aviation forum regarding the F-16s. Lets take the conversation there Smile

    http://www.airliners.net/discussions/military/read.main/23624/


    User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4292 posts, RR: 12
    Reply 22, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3851 times:

    Quote by LVZXV #15

    "AR may acquire a couple of "new" 737-200s for their Chilean operation, as sacrificing a few of their own with spring and high season on its way probably wouldn't be the most judicious decision,"



    Exactly. What I said about Marsans pulling AdS slotted planes for domestic operations whas a wild shot, but I do still think what I said that he is not in any rush with AdS, because the upcomming summer season will keep them busy.

    To be honest, I'm starting to change my mind about all this 'airline propping' shananigans going on in the government. I think it's about time the powers that be stop killing somewhat reasonable airlines just to grandstand (LAPA), and keep on life support the ones that have no shot. And allow Lan into Argentina, and any other foreign company. The only thing I would stipulate is that they agree to commit themselves to long-term investment and job development within Argentina. Chile does something like that with capital flows.

    Quote by LVZXV #20

    "I must say though, two things I fail to understand are why on earth Chile wants the latest F-16s PLUS AMRAAMs. None of their neighbours would dare engage in air-to-air combat with the FACH even now, least of all Argentina, and Peru is all show and no go"



    Why the heck not?
    [edit: I meant, Why the heck not Chile shoudn't modernize it's military)

    If I read you correctly now, It's absolutely pathetic that Argentina's Air Force now has less firepower than Peru's or Bolivia's, and certainly less than Chile, Brazil, Colombia or Venezuela. That's absolutely embarrassing. The government should be completely ashamed.

    No matter what everyone else believes, I think Argentina's 30 year skid started and parallels almost exacty the time when it stopped investing in technologies and weapons. I'm certainly not saying that was the cause of all ills, but I do believe that techonology spurs growth, and Argentina abandoned that.



    [Edited 2004-09-15 22:07:31]


    My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
    User currently offlineArcano From Chile, joined Mar 2004, 2406 posts, RR: 24
    Reply 23, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3815 times:

    Derico: Thanks God Argentina is no in the need of more updated fighting fleet... nor Chile is. Remember this has being an issue here.
    It's good to hear Argentina don't look us (or Brazil) as a terrible threat to be hold.

    We all know FACH has many "secret" bases to land their fighters... Atacama is a laaarage place to hide them. But I think we are acting for an alert, to even think in a war is ridiculous. But the "strongest"  Insane argument I think is Peru and its military power, maybe the only -veeeeeeeeeeery remote- chance of a serious conflict for Chile.
    Atacama has always been a strategic issue for us, specially after all the territory we lost in Argentina (fairly for them, I might add).


    If Bolivia were ever to regain sovereignty of northern Chile, which politically and deomgraphically would be extremely messy and controversial, like Argentina over the Malvinas, diplomacy would be their only available option
    ZXV: Bolivia, Peru, Chile, Brazil or Ecuador have no sovereignty to regain, and there is absolutetly no comparison with Argentina/Malvinas... por favor!



    in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773 and 380
    User currently offlineLVZXV From Gabon, joined Mar 2004, 2041 posts, RR: 37
    Reply 24, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3809 times:

    With all the forecasts for a record-breaking temporada this (austral) summer, it's quite possible AR wants as many planes as possible at its disposition. If all goes according to plan (which it won't), the operational fleet of AR and AU should resemble this by December:

    2 x A310-300(ET) (6Y-JAE due 10/04)
    4 x A340-200X
    30 x B737-200Adv.
    4 x B737-500 (F-GJNY, F-GJNI, N952UA, N954UA due 11/04-12/04)
    4 x B747-200B
    3 x B747-400 (C-GMWW due 11/04)
    1 x F28-1000 (LV-WZC due 09/04)
    2 x MD-81
    5 x MD-83 (N824NK due 10/04)
    5 x MD-88

    TOTAL: 60 aircraft

    Re: The Military:

    Some good has come out of Argentina's military downsizing, such as warmer military relations with Brazil (esp. sharing of the carrier) and Uruguay. Additionally, the Royal and Argentine Navies took part in various exercises in the late '90s (sadly a thing of the past with K's aggressive rhetoric).
    But bear in mind that Argentina's military decay was born out of a fundamentally different reason to that of its neighbours: the fact it lost a major war. Few Argentines trust the military anymore, and understandably so. Now, to keep things in perspective, it's debateable as to whether Argentina's military has less firepower than Bolivia or Colombia. For one thing, they have more than Mexico, and for another, what's fire-power in a continent that has consigned most of its border/territorial disputes to the past? With the Cold War over, and the drugs and terror wars utterly farcical, high tech aircraft in relatively poor countries tend to symbolise corruption, more than anything.

    Derico:

    That's absolutely embarrassing. The government should be completely ashamed.

    I agree, Argentina has been hampered by a degree of technophobia these past 30 years. But don't you think that Argentina's governments (past and present) have committed far worse crimes than stunting military development? And since when did the Argentine government show any sign of remorse?

    Arcano:

    What I'm saying is that no South American country will ever recuperate any slither of land/island(s) they claim as theirs' through any means besides diplomacy. Oh and by the way, much as this is of no concern to you or me, all the countries you mention are in some way involved in sovereignty issues with one another, although admittedly, the land at stake and the fuss caused is negligible in most cases.
    All Chile should fear is Argentina's formidable "virtual" Air Force, made up of all the planned acquisitions of the '90s, such as 24 F-16s and 24 F/A-18s...  Big grin

    Saludos,

    ZXV




    How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
    25 Post contains images Luisde8cd : high tech aircraft in relatively poor countries tend to symbolise corruption, more than anything. Not exactly... here they've done their work. For exa
    26 Derico : The fact that we are comparing the AF's of Argentina and Bolivia is all the proof one needs! Fact is, simply by the size, population, & GDP comparison
    27 LVZXV : Military as hell but oh well... Good anecdote, Luis, but I think that example of restraint was particularly rare and it is fortunate just as well that
    28 TBCITDG : Seems that Arcano is not the only person who is happy about the competition coming to Chile. As stated in El Mercurio ACHET (Tourism Association) is q
    29 Post contains images Derico : It's ironic that the kleptomaniac government, when it actually gets on the same page, it's to give our neighbor to the north seniority. I actually don
    30 Luisde8cd : I believe the Colombian frigate was named Almirante Padilla (I'm not really sure if this is true) After a little research, I was wrong. I got confuse
    31 TBCITDG : New routes? Not that I have heard of any, apart from Zurich and Munich both via MAD. There has been talk once again from Marsans of opening a base in
    32 Arcano : ACHET (Tourism Association) is quite happy about an "additional" airline operating in Chile TBC, a good point here! one of the announcements made by A
    33 LVZXV : Some of the new routes announced for 2004 (asides PEK and PVG): ATH (via MAD) - After the not-so-brilliant idea of creating a second European hub in A
    34 DCAjet : On a related note, AR's second B747-475 is in BUE-EZE. Reg # is LV-AXT. According to AR, two more are on the way... Seeing is believing... Pic can be
    35 LVZXV : Hola DCAjet: It was initially said to be -AXF...such have been the delays! Formerly C-FCRA with Canadian and later Air Canada, and in the picture wear
    36 Arcano : Wouldn't surprise me it becomes a -200 or -300 instead... ... that would be too much, It would be like announcing: we'll fly to CUN and later flying t
    37 Post contains links and images LVZXV : Well there is some good news from AR... Munich and Zürich are already on AR's website, although gone from the destinations list is Milan. The second
    38 Arcano : Thanks ZXV, but there are a couple of things I don't understand: 1. Why MUC and Zurich? I mean, how big markets are those cities over, for instance, A
    39 TBCITDG : I think that the Marsan group are looking outside the picture of Aerolineas Argentinas with regards to most of their European destinations. People alw
    40 DCAjet : Why MUC and ZRH? Besides looking outside the picture of AR to extend the reach of the Marsans group from Madrid (not sure if Spanair serves those citi
    41 Post contains links and images LVZXV : Hola Arcano (desde Londres!), I think your first question has been already answered, with regards to Swiss, who, in any case, probably couldn't serve
    42 TBCITDG : LV: There is a picture of the F28 wearing the Austral colors. The rego is LV-WZC. Some of the routes that it will operate are: AEP-ROS AEP-VDA-RSA-AEP
    43 Post contains links Renton_WA : American Falcon's F28 is painted in AR colors tried posting a direct link to them but didn't allow me, maybe because of copyrights? Anyway... http://w
    44 Post contains images LVZXV : Looks good! To me the F28 is one of those planes that looks like it could fly forever, like its propeller cousin, the F27. Something about those Fokke
    45 Arcano : ZXV (saludos a Londres): Lufthansa began direct services to EZE last December (a first for them, I think) What do you mean by that? LH is flying direc
    46 Post contains images LVZXV : Arcano: I honestly don't remember LH serving EZE direct. Maybe they added the GRU stop during the recent crisis, and flew direct before then, but Brit
    47 Lan_Fanatic : If I'm not mistaken the flight was always FRA-EZE-SCL. Then, with the argentinian crisis LH switched to FRA-GRU-EZE and FRA-GRU-SCL (please somebody c
    48 S.p.a.s. : Lan_Fanatic, Your are correct mate. But IIRC, during the early 90s the routing was indeed FRA-GRU-EZE (flight operated with 747-200s). After LH receiv
    49 Arcano : Renato, thanks a lot! I actually forgot that, but you are totally right; before the awefull A346, LH honored us with their gorgeous 744 via GRU! Regar
    50 LVZXV : Hola Arcano, With the recent retirement of two of their 31 737-200s (LV-JND & -LEB), I doubt AR will commence operations in Chile until an equal numbe
    51 Arcano : But I think I read a few months ago that the certification process in our DGAC already begun. Doesn't this mean that the aircrafts already have been s
    52 LVZXV : Arcano: I'm sure that the certification process has begun; question is, when will it end? As for the specific number of aircraft, well the various com
    53 Arcano : Do you know what really amazes me? I think if our small market could sustain profitable operations dfor the 744, LAN would already have them. Think th
    54 TBCITDG : Has there ever been any speculation as to where the 742 or 744 would fly to?? I mean it is a very big aircraft to fly off to the other side of the wor
    55 LVZXV : Te sigo, Arcano, but don't you find it a miracle that Argentina operates 747s and Brazil, Colombia and Mexico don't? Aerolíneas has not operated 747s
    56 Arcano : Te sigo siguiendo... I actually think we are talking about different strategies: volume vs. flexibility. I think LA needs more flexibility, and now mo
    57 SOUTHAMERICA : LVZXV, but don't you find it a miracle that Argentina operates 747s and Brazil, Colombia and Mexico don't? Apart from all the reasons you gave, the fa
    58 TBCITDG : I think that LA would find it very hard to fill planes out of AKL to any Asian destination. It would have to go up against SQ and the home town player
    59 SOUTHAMERICA : True to form, AR has one of the worst feeder problems out of EZE. Most people have to transfer airports (AEP) which is quite far away. AR should provi
    60 LVZXV : Arcano: Volume and flexibility: I think it is fair to say that AR has struck a good balance between the two for quite some time. Domestically and regi
    61 Arcano : TBC: don't worry, no need to hate you. I just think you are considering a very short term in your analysis. I'm not talking of next december, I'm talk
    62 LVZXV : Arcano: Gracias por entender! Re LA's A343s, I might have an answer. While I'm no expert on their fleet, I do know that all 4 are still wearing the ol
    63 Post contains images Arcano : No te preocupes, el bueno de Arcano siempre entiende Yes, the 343 will continue to EZE after that date, or so I checked for a flight on Nov.19 to EZE
    64 Post contains images LVZXV : Here it is! AR's latest (and oldest) incorporation, former American Falcon F28-1000 LV-WZC, which first flew in January 1970. Nice dents on the fusela
    65 Arcano : I'm not sure if it looks nice, but It does look like a cute dragonfly!
    66 Post contains images LVZXV : Arcano: I suppose it looks ok as far as the new colours go, but I still think I preferred the originals: Saludos, ZXV
    67 Arcano : BTW, I read you mention in the other forum that the double A in AR scheme was removed for AA demand. Is that right???? )(
    68 Post contains images Anxebla : Arcano, so far I know, that's an "argentinada" jajajaja... the OFFICIAL int. code for American Airlines is AA, like AR is for Aerolineas Argentinas...
    69 Post contains links and images LVZXV : Arcano: Apparently so. Now, as you know, American introduced their "AA"brand in 1969. AR had "AA" in small letters on the fin since their foundation i
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