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B777 Losing Ground To A340/330?  
User currently offlineJustloveplanes From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 1034 posts, RR: 1
Posted (9 years 10 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 11005 times:

It seems this year, Boeing has lost a lot of 777 opportunities to Airbus. Some of them big. Is Airbus just winning on price? Why are the tables seeming to turn? This year sales are favoring A instead of B it seems where the 777 led the market before. This has to be a serious worry for Boeing.

JLP.

96 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDIJKKIJK From France, joined Jul 2003, 1780 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (9 years 10 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 10761 times:

Not another A vs B thread.......


 Angry  Nuts  Angry  Nuts  Angry  Nuts






Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
User currently offlineJustloveplanes From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 1034 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (9 years 10 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 10738 times:

I can't help myself!!!! It's driving me crazy and I MUST KNOW!!!

Actually, we shouldn't shy away from this. A vs. B is IMO far and away the most fascinating industrial competition in the world. It involves everything from technology to global politics, but its the technology that fascinates me. I am really trying to understand why the market preference seems to have changed this year.

However, I do hope we can discuss this enjoyably.....  Big grin



User currently offlineSolnabo From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 849 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (9 years 10 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 10533 times:

I cant see that 777 loosing ground, just look at AF order (10?)for the -300ER and NZ 777´s. Bet there´s more!

Micke/SE Big grin



Airbus SAS - Love them both
User currently offlineDan2002 From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 2055 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (9 years 10 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 10483 times:

Oh boy, you better hope ConcordeBoy doesnt see this! And if anything I would say the 330/340 is losing more ground than the T7.


-Dan



A guy asks 'What's Punk?'. I kick over a trash can and its punk. He knocks over a trash can and its trendy.
User currently offlineFutureualpilot From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2602 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (9 years 10 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 10438 times:

Did NZ really order 777s? I hope so, they will look sweet in those colors.

Sorry, I must have missed that announcement if they did.



Life is better when you surf.
User currently offlineAirplane From Ecuador, joined Sep 2004, 256 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (9 years 10 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 10393 times:

Its Aircraft price,
that's why you rarely see small, or start up airlines with new Boeing, usually they go with Airbus because they are economic in price.





The sky´s the limit
User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 7, posted (9 years 10 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 10372 times:

Actually, Airplane, I'd say that you'd "usually" see those small or start-up airlines you're talking about take off with either used Boeings, McDonnell Douglasses or Fokkers: how many startups - with the exception of JetBlue - have started out with a fleet of new Airbusses (or Boeings)?

Regards,
Frank



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineAirxLiban From Lebanon, joined Oct 2003, 4506 posts, RR: 54
Reply 8, posted (9 years 10 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 10361 times:

11 777 orders this year plus the 5 Etihad ones

13 A330/40 orders this year plus the Virgin ones if i am not mistaken.




PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 957 posts, RR: 51
Reply 9, posted (9 years 10 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 10329 times:

Airbus has beem marketing the A340 much more aggressivly as of late, largely due to thier large investment in the A340-500/600. The A342/A343 are, or were, good airplanes, but Boeing really outdid themselves with the 777. It's technological prowess, excellent performance, and sales record speaks for itself. For this reason, the 777 largely crushed the A343.

But with the A345/A346 Airbus has a really good airplane to offer that in some ways are better than the 777 offerings, or were avialable long before the 777-300ER/200LR. It isn't that the 777 is losing ground, the A340 is just doing a better job competing.


User currently offlineAirplane From Ecuador, joined Sep 2004, 256 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (9 years 10 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 10310 times:

That is why I wrote NEW Boeing, because when a small airline wants to acquire new aircraft "usually" they go with Airbus because of the price.
Yes they usually go with the aircraft you mentioned but that is when they go USED.



The sky´s the limit
User currently offlineAirplane From Ecuador, joined Sep 2004, 256 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (9 years 10 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 10295 times:

Excellent post DfwRevolution.....
JP



The sky´s the limit
User currently offlineUa777222 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3348 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (9 years 10 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 10201 times:

The 777 will not lose ground to the 340 series. Not to turn this into that BIG of an a vs. b but Boeing produced an a/c that is outstanding and in a class of it's own. I haven't heard of any operators who have had major issues with the 777 (a/c issues, the pilots who can't cal. t/o weight or those who can't taxi are not the a/c's issues) other than the recent number of engine changes, but that is expect with any a/c.

The 777 can out do the 340 in most if not all performance areas. And with the many advances of the 777 there are little upgrades here and there as to the 340 class that's a lot of everything.

The numbers will look in Airbus' favor b/c the a/c isn't as expensive as the 777. But with choosing the cheapest a/c they will end up paying in the end. Airbus is also serving to country's and airlines who don't have large economy issues like that of Boeing.

And the 340 is like a big cheap bus so to say. It has size and a price tag that is appealing to start up airlines and airlines who need an a/c but don't want to pay that much. I'm not saying that the a/c itself is a POS just that airbus has made cuts in quality in order to meet the asking price of many operators.

Correct me in 10 years when the 340's are still flying and the 777's are sitting in the desert. (Due to a/c issues not airline issues) The 777 is the newer 747. Is the best out there in performance and will not die for much time to come. The 747 is still in production and is behind the 777 in a few area's. So the 777 is here to stay and there are many loyal operators of the a/c who too will stick with the a/c.

Yeah it's great to look cool and have the newest a/c on the market (345/6 & 380) but it's always best to silently win the race....

Thanks again

UA777222



"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
User currently offlineStarrion From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1126 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (9 years 10 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 10139 times:

"11 777 orders this year plus the 5 Etihad ones

13 A330/40 orders this year plus the Virgin ones if i am not mistaken.
"


Plus 18 T7 for SQ. Thai also ordered six T7 but that hasn't posted yet either.

So they're pretty much neck and neck.



Knowledge Replaces Fear
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (9 years 10 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 10109 times:

And the 340 is like a big cheap bus so to say. It has size and a price tag that is appealing to start up airlines and airlines who need an a/c but don't want to pay that much.
Are you sure about that Ua777222?  Big grin


Airbus is also serving to country's and airlines who don't have large economy issues like that of Boeing.
but they still go for the cheap ones, hmm ...

NWA got the 333 because is offered significant lower seat mile cost on the Atlantic & the 772ER just didn´t fit in for the Pacific..

The 333 uses signifiant less fuel then the 772ER for the same 300 pax/cargo routes up to 5000 miles... check it ..

That said the 777 is a very good aircraft, but lets not exaggerate, it´s not a miracle plane...


User currently offlineUa777222 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3348 posts, RR: 11
Reply 15, posted (9 years 10 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 10053 times:

When a 777 is running 747 routes and and can out do a 4 engine a/c in performance and range I would say it has the 340 by the balls......

The 777 was supposed to be an advanced 767 but turned out to be an entirely new a/c all together. The 340 is a 330 with 4 engines. You know it's a cheaper design when they take the same wing and slam it on a different body...... That's like taking a hub cap of an entirely different car and putting it on yours b/c it kinda fits and doesn't look that bad.

The 777 is a fantastic a/c and will be at the top of it's class for time to come. I want to say that the 777 can run the same routes as the 380 but time will only tell...

Thanks again.

UA777222

And they only go with the cheap ones b/c airbus kiss' some major butt and offers deals that no one would refuse (Jetblue ring a bell???)



"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 16, posted (9 years 10 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 10013 times:

And they only go with the cheap ones b/c airbus kiss' some major butt and offers deals that no one would refuse (Jetblue ring a bell???)

... actually, JetBlue doesn't ring more of a bell than Ryanair does...

Regards,
Frank



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineUa777222 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3348 posts, RR: 11
Reply 17, posted (9 years 10 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 9984 times:

What is the Ryanair deal? I thought they were only 737 guys. They have A LOT of a/c on order if I recall correctly......

Any info would be great Leskova!

Thanks again Leskova!!

UA777222



"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 957 posts, RR: 51
Reply 18, posted (9 years 10 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 9988 times:

NWA got the 333 because is offered significant lower seat mile cost on the Atlantic & the 772ER just didn´t fit in for the Pacific.. The 333 uses signifiant less fuel then the 772ER for the same 300 pax/cargo routes up to 5000 miles...check it

If you take a look at NW's reasoning behind the desicion (and I'm not going to insult you and say you havn't), they specifically required the PW4000... possibly the worst 777 powerplant versus one of the best A330 powerplants. Their diehard PW, and only out of spite will order GE or RR.

Had NW considered the Trent 800 or GE90 offerings, perhaps there would have been different results.

... actually, JetBlue doesn't ring more of a bell than Ryanair does...

The 737 deal was a rather sleezy move by Ryanair. In the wake of 9/11 and massive order delays/cancellations, Ryanair basically went to Boeing and said "Look, you can't afford to lose us, take-off your pants, bend over, or we're goin to Leahy." In January 2002, Boeing simply couldn't pass up an offer for 100 frames.

And they only go with the cheap ones b/c airbus kiss' some major butt and offers deals that no one would refuse (Jetblue ring a bell???)

U2 would probably be a better example.

[Edited 2004-09-12 23:29:22]

User currently offlineUa777222 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3348 posts, RR: 11
Reply 19, posted (9 years 10 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 9949 times:

Yeah but the Ryanair deal was them milking Boeing. Airbus is milking the airlines. What was the deal with Jetblue? That they would give them the frames for dirt cheap and then would have them pay it back over time? Was this with interest? Now they can do this b/c they still have $$ in the bank (Airbus) and it will put their product in even bigger numbers in the US thus raising their odds of more orders...

Thanks again

UA777222



"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21423 posts, RR: 56
Reply 20, posted (9 years 10 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 9927 times:

The 340 is a 330 with 4 engines. You know it's a cheaper design when they take the same wing and slam it on a different body...... That's like taking a hub cap of an entirely different car and putting it on yours b/c it kinda fits and doesn't look that bad.

Umm, that was actually an amazing achievement with the 330/340. They designed a wing that was good for both 4 and 2 engines, thus saving millions (if not billions) in the development process, and thus being able to pass those savings along to the airlines.

More like realizing that you don't have to spend money designing different hubcaps for cars that are almost the same, you can just use one that looks good.

I won't argue that the 777 is a better plane than the 340, but Airbus does make quality planes. The 320 is just as good as the 737, and there's no quality skimped on in the 330/340.




7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineImonti From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (9 years 10 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 9910 times:

Off the subject, instead of people arguing that A is better than B or B is better than A, the new cry is that people always saying im not here to start an A v. B and if you are then your a moron. Also what daft is when people say things such as

Not another A vs B thread.......


I mean come on their have been quite a few posts that have not landed up being Boeing is better than Airbus becuase the sky is blue and grass green. So instead of people saying A is better than B the new craze seems to be, here is another A v B or I am not intending to start an A v B.


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (9 years 10 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 9894 times:

If you take a look at NW's reasoning behind the desicion (and I'm not going to insult you and say you havn't)
I did, a published interview with their VP fleet mngt.

they specifically required the PW4000... possibly the worst 777 powerplant versus one of the best A330 powerplants. Their diehard PW, and only out of spite will order GE or RR.

NWA has had a preference for PW sofar but are not addicted to it. If GE or RR comes with a better deal, they´ll act pragmatic.

It was payload/range (Pacific) and fuel consumption (Atlantic) that made them pass the 777.

Too much (Atl) & not enough (Pac) aircraft NWA said.. They have a good relationship with Boeing.




User currently offlineChris78cpr From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 2819 posts, RR: 51
Reply 23, posted (9 years 10 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 9870 times:

In my opinion the 777 is fast beating the 340 in to the ground! The 340 comfort wise has a long way to go before it becomes any where close to being of the standard the T7 is!!! I have flown the 346 and 343 in the last 3 months and both were terrbible!!! The T7's i have flown were beautiful in comparison!

Chris



5D2/7D/1D2(soon to be a 1Dx) 17-40L/24-105L/70-200F2.8L/100-400L/24F1.4LII/50F1.2L/85F1.2LII
User currently offlineSolnabo From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 849 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (9 years 10 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 9873 times:

I´m I the only one here thinking some people think that the 777 is gods gift to this earth *or sky!*?? Jeeeehhhh  Nuts

Micke/SE




Airbus SAS - Love them both
25 Ua777222 : Yeah the wing might have saved them $$ but the wing on the 777 is one big point that it is kicking the 340's butt. It takes longer for it to get there
26 AF-A319 : It's the first time I contribute to a A vs. B discussion, but let me tell you the following: I travel between CDG and YUL several times a year (I do a
27 AA787 : Going back to the thread...does anyone have solid evidence to show that the A340 is beating the T7? Because so far I haven't seen any. AA787
28 Francoflier : Going back to the thread...does anyone have solid evidence to show that the A340 is beating the T7? Because so far I haven't seen any. Frankly I don't
29 Post contains links Ua777222 : VERY Hard to find a factual peace of evidence. Here is an article about maintains between airbus 340 and boeing 777 by AF who operates both types. htt
30 Zkojh : Hi, I dout boeing are losing the battle, SQ have just loI to buy 31 aircraft mainly longhaul and ANZ have brought 6 new aircraft with options on anoth
31 Post contains links Ua777222 : Francofiler, I have had hands on time in and around the 777. And when I speak and read about the two a/c, when you put them together the 777 comes out
32 Gearup : It's a good thing that airlines don't check this forum to get the 'informed' opinions of some of the contributors to this debate. I guess if they did,
33 Post contains links Ua777222 : Current Boeing orders; http://active.boeing.com/commercial/orders/displaystandardreport.cfm?RequestTimeout=20000&optReportType=CurYrDelv Overall Airbu
34 Gigneil : I have had hands on time in and around the 777 No, you have not. N
35 Neednewairport : IMHO Boeing does not offer a decent narrow body option or a decent midsized wide body option. For fleet commonality it would make more sense to buy 32
36 Reggaebird : Re: Northwest Airlines A330 order. I thought that I had read that NWA executives wanted to cancel the order back in the 1990's but that Airbus wouldn
37 Airplane : I think there is enough cake for both Boeing and Airbus. The differences in production are not tremendous. JP
38 Biggles313 : to those who say they think the 777 is more comfortable than the 330/340: this is purely a question of personal opinion, but based on experience of al
39 Thrust : The Boeing 777 is a greater accomplishment than either the A330 or the A340...the A340 is just a traditional four-engined jetliner, and the A330 has t
40 Netdhaka : I think whether T7 is more comfortable than 330/340 is a subjective matter. However, they should not be too far apart. In 2001 I flew in AA T7 from OR
41 777ER : Did NZ really order 777s? I hope so, they will look sweet in those colors. Yes NZ has ordered the T7. 8x B772ERs as well as 2x B7E7-8s. 4 of the B772s
42 SNATH : Just to add my two pennies worth about B777 vs. A340/A330 cabin confort. I've flown on both many times. My preferred seat is a window and, during rede
43 IL76TD : every time i fly IAD-FRA-DXB, the first leg is on a UA 777 (business) and the second leg is on an LH A343 (business). I cannot stress, there is no com
44 KEESJE : On cabin comfort: On a 777 you have a better chance to get a middle seat, some people probably prefer those.. On the NWA preference for the 333 over t
45 Na : Airliners.net rule: never critisize the 777, you´ll stirr up many people with partial opinions. Far more so than if you critisize the A340 or other a
46 Glideslope : The only difference this year is Airbus is now selling the 340 at near cost. As we all know this is due to the huge taxpayer subsidies from the hard
47 L410Turbolet : 777 gotta be better because A340 is built in "socialist" Europe and only they use all kinds of dirty tricks to sell their a/c. Signed, Tasha
48 IL76TD : "On a 777 you have a better chance to get a middle seat, some people probably prefer those.." well excuse it for being a bigger plane, i'd rather have
49 Post contains links and images KEESJE : Now back on the 777, does it use relative much fuel on transatlantic services ? The cross section is wider & it has bigger engines then the same seat
50 Na : "Once the WTO situation hits the news everyone will see Airbus' unfair pricing advantage in the market." Yawn. But as you started this old story, mayb
51 Col : To me the 777 v 330/340 sales are fairly even, thats according to Boeing and Airbus, and not A.Net, but A and B could be wrong! Passenger wise, I fly
52 Windshear : Leskova em you are mistaken I am afraid... Tons of startup airlines use the A320... The new Indian fischer air or something like that, Lao, Tiger, Vbi
53 RJ111 : The A343 is an efficient but somewhat impractical plane. IIRC The four engine design means it burns a lot of fuel (vrs twins) on take off but burns le
54 Starlionblue : It really is all down to Airline configuration and personal preferences. So this should really be an airline config discussion, and not A V B. Exactly
55 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : Umm, that was actually an amazing achievement with the 330/340. They designed a wing that was good for both 4 and 2 engines, thus saving millions (if
56 Starlionblue : Yes, but when the 330/340 was originally designed engines powerful enough to drive the 777 were not around yet.
57 Post contains images WestIndian425 : Hmmm...already 55 posts, and not a single one from ConcordeBoy! Personally, I like the 777 and A340, and I've been on both. Neil
58 Post contains images Starlionblue : Hmmm...already 55 posts, and not a single one from ConcordeBoy! You missed him by 14 minutes He strikes silently and invisibly, then dissapears back i
59 Post contains links and images KEESJE : that "amazing achievement" (lift/effieciency & fuel capasity) forced Boeing to both develop the 777 & start the 7e7 View Large View MediumPhoto ©
60 Brons2 : It was payload/range (Pacific) and fuel consumption (Atlantic) that made them pass the 777. Too much (Atl) & not enough (Pac) aircraft NWA said.. They
61 ConcordeBoy : But I'm not sure how you can say that the 772ER doesn't have more payload-range capability across the Pacific than any A330 variant. ...it's a little
62 Post contains images Keesje : "But I'm not sure how you can say that the 772ER doesn't have more payload-range capability across the Pacific than any A330 variant" Who said that ?
63 Bruno : This can't be good news for Boeing.
64 ConcordeBoy : Um, what "news" are you referring to???
65 Beachthing : Fruitless thread, I have to say. Both aircraft are neat machines and making profits for their makers![Edited 2004-09-13 22:33:50]
66 Post contains images WestIndian425 : Amen to that, Brons2!! L-1011 all the way! ...but I'll leave that for another post. LOL, Starlionblue, I guess I did miss him. He beat me to the post.
67 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : Now why would you postulate such a silly conclusion as that?
68 Iowa744fan : KEESJE, From what I remember reading in AW&ST and also hearing from a NW pilot (I will admit that this is not always the most reliable source, but he
69 Post contains images Iowa744fan : Also, as a side note. I still want to fly a 330 or a 340. Actually, it would be cool to see a 773ER and a 345 live. I've seen the 346, flown in a 773,
70 Post contains links Starlionblue : Also, wasn't Boeing originally planning on a slightly narrower cabin, but agreed to make it wider when Cathay Pacific requested the wider cabin during
71 Hamlet69 : As most of the posts on this thread have been completely pointless, I'll skip most of them. However, at this point, it is probably necessary to remind
72 Planelymad : Clearly Boeing and Airbus are competitive in different respects - there are many airlines, Cathay Pacific, Emirates, Air France, Korean Air, and Singa
73 ROP : let's say 777 is the man and A330 is a woman. both has its own good and bad point.
74 Post contains images Starlionblue : But of course the plumbing is different
75 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : ...but what does that then make the A340: a hermaphrodite?!
76 Post contains images Anxebla : hahahaha... no, a "no-so-bad" and "no-so-unconfortable", 4-engines plane
77 Wingman : In a strictly 2004 comparison wouldn't we have to factor in 763ER and 7E7 orders as well? I still think it's a very unusual campaign that pits the 330
78 Md11lover : Since i dont know much of the technicality in any of the three a/c, beyond things like range, capacity, markets etc.. i think both a/c (340 and 777,
79 Post contains images Anxebla : What are you saying, Md11lover? Does AF have sent the B-777 to Cali,Colombia?
80 Md11lover : Anxebla, i meant to California, during the summer season, AF operates the 777 on the CDG-SFO, CDG-LAX routes. Would love to fly the 773ER on either r
81 Anxebla : Ah!... Then, you can call it CA, or Calif. I think the route SFO-CDG sometimes is with A-340.To LAX they send also the B-744's
82 Md11lover : True, i forgot to mention the 744 although it doesnt fly very often to SFO. About a month ago i flew in from CDG to SFO and it was on a 744, the ones
83 Anxebla : I've flown in both A-340 (IB) and B-777 (AF) I'm not any Kind of fanatic and both planes are great.I think this Autumn I will fly to Singapore with a
84 Trex8 : I've flown on UA, AA, TG, BA 777s and LH, TG, CX A340/330s and to be honest the only thing I can say about the cabin is that despite being 5-8 I can't
85 Starlionblue : The A330/340 was designed initially as a 4 engine and the 2 engine 330 came after the original idea so it is not as someone said a few dozen posts hig
86 Thrust : There is nothing in the world quite like flying on a Boeing 777....I know, I have flown one twice!!! Remarkably quiet for its size, by no means underp
87 Airplane : Since I was a little kid I can remember airline Senior pilots saying a Boeing is a Boeing. The 777 has demonstrated it is a fantastic machine. Just li
88 Anxebla : Airplane: ¿eres ecuatoriano, verdad? I remember you the perfect performance show by all IB's 343 at Quito.You know Quito Airport is not a very easy a
89 Aa777jr : Read the book, great reading!!! "BIRDS OF PREY: Airbus vs Boening!!!" AA777jr
90 Post contains images Sky0000547 : As a passenger point of view both A340 and 777 are great aircrafts. I had the experiences of travelling on both types and even both on the same day. I
91 Starlionblue : There is nothing in the world quite like flying on a Boeing 777....I know, I have flown one twice!!! Remarkably quiet for its size, by no means underp
92 Post contains images Iowa744fan : This is really a silly thread, a lot of cabin comfort is determined by the airlines Exactly! Although the 777 offers the supposedly more spacious feel
93 RJ111 : Just like posted millions of times before, Air France it self has them instead of their A340's. I am sure they didn't get them as a gift they cannot r
94 Airplane : Airplane: ¿eres ecuatoriano, verdad? Correcto I remember you the perfect performance show by all IB's 343 at Quito.You know Quito Airport is not a
95 Dreamcraft : Is the T7 losing ground...Not at all! My opinion: The T7 is a superior a/c. Period. All the imperical evidence supports that view. If the price of bot
96 Dreamcraft : Kindly pardon the spelling error in my most recent emtry: Imperical. That of course should be : Empirical
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