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AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda  
User currently offlineQqflyboy From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2282 posts, RR: 13
Posted (10 years 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 11946 times:

MAARIV International is reporting today that a Canadian Intelligence Agency has uncoverved information linking the crash of AA 587, an A300-600R that crashed in Queens, New York on November 13, 2001, to al Qaeda.

http://www.maarivintl.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=article&articleID=11037

The report indicates a shoe bomb may have been used to down the plane carrying 265 passengers and crew.


The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
76 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineHz747300 From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2004, 1675 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (10 years 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 11734 times:
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Not able to believe this. If the accident was not captured on camera by a toll booth security tape, maybe they would have been able to snow people on this one.

Without an explosion prior to impact as witnessed on tape--there is no reason to believe anything other than what was originally thought: Wake turbulence snapping off a tailfin causing loss of control.



Keep on truckin'...
User currently offlineQqflyboy From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2282 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (10 years 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 11681 times:

I agree that it sounds suspicious. It's just the first time I've heard of any "official" linking of the crash to terrorism, and even that is vague. I just wanted to share for everyone here and check out other's opinions.


The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
User currently offlineAS739X From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6140 posts, RR: 23
Reply 3, posted (10 years 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 11629 times:

This was already discussed about 3 weeks ago!!


Its hard to swalloW...don't buy it!

assfo



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineBigblack From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 600 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (10 years 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 11571 times:

I buy TW800 more than this one


Someone special in the air
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17039 posts, RR: 66
Reply 5, posted (10 years 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 11529 times:

Why did no one take responsibility then?


there is no reason to believe anything other than what was originally thought: Wake turbulence snapping off a tailfin causing loss of control.

Wake turbulence did not snap off the tailfin. If that sort of thing happened, the A300-600 would have been grounded. The tailfin is much stronger than that.



I have personally been on an A300-600 and I seriously thought we were going down shortly after takeoff

ok......


I buy TW800 more than this one

What is it about TWA800 that you buy? That it actually crashed?






"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineHz747300 From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2004, 1675 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (10 years 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 11499 times:
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there is no reason to believe anything other than what was originally thought: Wake turbulence snapping off a tailfin causing loss of control.

Wake turbulence did not snap off the tailfin. If that sort of thing happened, the A300-600 would have been grounded. The tailfin is much stronger than that.


Wake turbulence led to a forced rudder movement (over-reaction) by the PIC, which led to a snap of the tailfin, which led to the loss of control of the aircraft, which led to the engine falling off before impact. I clearly remember two distinct fires from the direction of the impact from the jetBlue terminal at JFK.

I have personally been on an A300-600 and I seriously thought we were going down shortly after takeoff

This comment is as silly as the article.

I buy TW800 more than this one

If you are saying that you are more abt to believe that TWA 800 went down due to terrorist activity than AA 587--you have a point. At least with TWA 800, there was an explosion in flight, the mark of a bomb attack as opposed to AA 587 which had no such explosion prior to impact.

At the end of the day, Al Qaeda can say anything they want. They are accountable to no one, and they know that for a few their words can bring back powerful images of destruction.



Keep on truckin'...
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17039 posts, RR: 66
Reply 7, posted (10 years 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 11463 times:

Wake turbulence led to a forced rudder movement (over-reaction) by the PIC, which led to a snap of the tailfin, which led to the loss of control of the aircraft, which led to the engine falling off before impact. I clearly remember two distinct fires from the direction of the impact from the jetBlue terminal at JFK.

That is the current trend in the investigation yes. Sounds plausible to me but what do I know  Big grin

The important thing to remember is that repeated rudder movement led to the overstress, not a single rudder movement.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineBigblack From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 600 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (10 years 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 11444 times:

I was joking about the takeoff. It was meant to be silly. It was a rough flight though. I gotta make a trip journal entry.

Anyway, yes, I agree and I am indeed more abt to believe that TWA 800 was a terrorist attack. Or sadder even, US Military misfire, but whatever it was, it is really shady to me.

I would think Al Qaeda would be very vocal if they were responsible. Like dropping off a tape at Al Jerreza or whatever that station is. They would want to world to know they did it if it was successful.



Someone special in the air
User currently offlineCedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8114 posts, RR: 54
Reply 9, posted (10 years 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 11376 times:

Why do people think the NTSB are idiots? How come a bunch of conspiracy theorists know that TW800 was brought down by a bomb and / or US missile? I know scientists get a hard time in the US by the religious nutters who seem to think stem cell research et al is an affront to their god (until their husband gets Alzheimers anyway) but they are the best in the world and believe me, if there was a shoebomb (AA587) or missile (TW800) involved, they would know.

Next.



fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlineFoxBravo From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2997 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (10 years 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 11353 times:

My question is, WHY? If they had the capability to smuggle a shoe bomb past security, why on earth would they choose a flight full of Dominicans? Doesn't make much of a political statement...

Sorry, but these conspiracy theories are getting more and more ridiculous.



Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
User currently offlineAIR MALTA From Malta, joined Sep 2001, 2501 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (10 years 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 11348 times:

Was the video of the crash released??? I did not see anything on the news?


Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
User currently offlineIberia340600 From Spain, joined Oct 2003, 804 posts, RR: 13
Reply 12, posted (10 years 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 11323 times:

HA HA....I needed a good laugh! Downed by Al Qaida??? Give me a break...they are trying to take credit in a situation where they had no influence. If there was a shoe bomb...where was the explosion? Where is the exposives residue? Was the so called "shoe bomber" sitting on the tail and thats why it broke off??

Come on people...the media is a terrible place to get information.



Visca Barça!!
User currently offlineBoeing nut From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (10 years 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 11293 times:

Asinine. Simply asinine.

User currently offlineN1120a From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26486 posts, RR: 75
Reply 14, posted (10 years 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 11285 times:

I think this is someone trying to engineer some fear for political purposes. AA587 has been shown clearly to have been caused by the rudder output (which would have been proper on the other a/c the PIC, the First Officer, had bee certified on). Airbus claims they informed AA about this and that AA did not train its pilots to not imput extreme rudder. AA claims Airbus did no such thing and was at fault. You don't see squabling like this if something was caused by a shoe bomb. And remember, the only shoe bomber ever would not have been able to set off his bomb. You need a charge to blow C-4 and all he did was try to light it (would have smoked a bit).


Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineAa777jr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (10 years 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 11184 times:

Where is the video of AA587 going down? Would like to view.

AA777jr


User currently offlineHz747300 From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2004, 1675 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (10 years 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 11164 times:
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They had screen stills on the cover and inside the New York Post, shortly after the accident. I do not know if the movie has been released to the public. Try .


Keep on truckin'...
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17039 posts, RR: 66
Reply 17, posted (10 years 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 11097 times:

AA587 has been shown clearly to have been caused by the rudder output (which would have been proper on the other a/c the PIC, the First Officer, had bee certified on).


Yes and no. It's not just an Airbus thing and the F/O should not have been doing what he was doing on any plane.

Four years before the accident, Airbus, MD and Boeing wrote a joint letter to AA expressing concern about the overemphasis on rudder usage in AA's flight upset training program.

For the record, the fin/rudder in question withstood 1.9 times the maximum force expected in normal operation before breaking, with the certification requirement being 1.5 times. In other words, the fin/rudder was much stronger than necessary.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineSolnabo From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 852 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (10 years 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 10994 times:

"AA 587 Linked To Al Qaeda"!!!!!!!

All I can say about this topic:

Cow Manure  Nuts

Micke/SE



Airbus SAS - Love them both
User currently offlineGearup From Canada, joined Dec 2000, 578 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (10 years 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 10889 times:

For a shoe bomber (Mr. Reid type) to bring down an airliner, success would depend on the initial explosion being able to rupture the pressure hull and allow the explosive decompression of the cabin to finish the destruction of the aircraft. I think that this is more or less what happened to Pan Am (Lockerbie), TWA over Long Island and Air India off the Irish coast. The AA Airbus was just after taking off and was not at a sufficient altitude for there to exist any pressure differential in the passenger cabin at the point where it crashed. I don't think a 'shoeful' of explosives could cause the type of tragedy we are talking about.

GU



I have no memory of this place.
User currently offlineAirportugal310 From Tokelau, joined Apr 2004, 3633 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (10 years 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 10682 times:

First off:

I have personally been on an A300-600 and I seriously thought we were going down shortly after takeoff

WOW!........and the reason you though this was???


All I can say about this topic:

Cow Manure


My thoughts exactly.



I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
User currently offlineHlywdCatft From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 5321 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (10 years 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 10604 times:

**"Why did no one take responsibility then?"**

(I am not saying I believe that it was an Al Qaida attack, but I am keeping an open mind to it)


They may have, but how do the citizens find out? thru the media. How does the media find out? By what the government tells them.

People were paranoid to fly after 9-11, everything was coming unglued, the economy in shambles. If this was announced that Al Qaida hit again, what would happen in America? Chaos, the airline industry and several other industries would barely be alive after this. Faith in Homeland Security would be zero at that point for allowing another terrorist attack to happen and what would happen to W's reelection hopes? bye bye. He can claim that no terrorist attack happened since 9-11 during his term now and that he is the right one to be reelected. But if it is revealed that it is a terrorist attack the people lose faith. The only reason that the Richard Reid incident was released was that there is no way you are going to keep 200+ passengers hushed on an AA 767 while that struggle was going on and it was bound to get out in the news. As for Flight 587, if the NTSB says something to the public, most people buy it just like people bought their explanation for TWA 800 because they are a reputable organization... nevermind that they are an arm of the government and the spokesperson is NOT the person who did the investigation.


User currently offlineLearjet23 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (10 years 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 10583 times:

I saw this plane go down! So did millions! It was on tape, and I think I got it off this site, or air disasters .com Whatever happened was extremely violent and faster than I would have ever thought a large heavy object could move around. This fully loaded plane looked like a plastic toy that had been shattered. God bless the people and families! Truly a heartbreaking sight!

User currently offlineIlovejets From Lebanon, joined Jul 2004, 1 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (10 years 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 10357 times:

well i think that they are putting everything on AL Qaeda. why????

User currently offlineBigblack From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 600 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (10 years 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 10154 times:

First off:

I have personally been on an A300-600 and I seriously thought we were going down shortly after takeoff

WOW!........and the reason you though this was???


Once again, it was a joke, read pal. It makes you look better.

As far as TWA is concerned, I am sorry buy the NTSB is a goverment agency and you cannot fully trust them for shit. Too many people saew too many strange things to make me accept the shit they are shoveling



Someone special in the air
25 Post contains images Flybyguy : Gearup, Your argument makes sense... in fact I am studying the explosive decompression issues on the DC-10 cargo doors for one of my classes. As you s
26 SpruceGoose : Wasn't the crash through over compensation of the rudder through a crosswind? The F/O over reacted. Through investigation wasn't it down to the way AA
27 Bigblack : Yea, I dunno. All I do know is any terrorist org would take responsiblility for it if they did it. Most cowards are like that.
28 Post contains images Airportugal310 : Hey BigBlack: Q: You know what else makes people look better? A: When they refrain from making less than stellar comments.
29 Post contains links Jakbar : The "tollbooth" video of the crash is indeed publicly available. http://www.ntsb.gov/Events/2001/AA587/anim_587.htm. There's also a video of the depar
30 Starlionblue : As you said, it is unlikely that the pressure differential at such a low altitude would induce catastrophic failure of the airframe unless an explosio
31 Bigblack : Hey Starlionblue, is the NTSB still investigating and if so when do you see a offical statement coming out?
32 Starlionblue : They are still investigating. Should have mentioned that. There is no word on a final finding as yet, but there is plenty of material on the NTSB webs
33 Post contains images Airportugal310 : As for AA587, I think that this whole Al-Queda thought is a completely proposterous idea. Why? I figure, though cannot deduce, that something as obvio
34 Bigblack : Thanks for the info. I know must investigations take years.
35 Burnsie28 : The most suspescious thing is that it said CANADIAN IA, since this was a US aircraft on US soil, they would have access to this how?
36 NIKV69 : Oh yea, a shoe bomb went off and made the tail separate from the plane. Give me a break. The CVR shows a loss of control due to the JAL 747.
37 Starlionblue : Thanks for the info. I know must investigations take years. Go to the NTSB and search for the accident in their database. The PDFs are very interestin
38 Airportugal310 : NIKV69, My friend....for once I am going to have to agree with you on this one. I really dont know where they went and fetched that information. Later
39 Bigblack : Go to the NTSB and search for the accident in their database. The PDFs are very interesting. Thank you sir. I agree. The other night I was reading the
40 AFROTC : Oh God. Come on, how hard is it to accept the plain truth. There was wake turbulence, the PIC over corrected the tail snapped the plane crashed and pe
41 UA772IAD : There is no way that that is true. Months of months of NTSB studies proved that it was caused by wake turbulence and stress on the airframe. Just look
42 MakeMinesLAX : There's also a video of the departure which was taken by a group of construction workers near the beginning of the runway. This is quite an odd snippe
43 Rikkus67 : quoted from Maariv: "A western intelligence source claims that the CSIS (Canadian Intelligence Service) has obtained evidence linking al Qaeda to the
44 ETStar : Not surprised to see this report from an Israeli/Jewish source (which i have no issues against), since they also claimed a few months ago that the Eth
45 PIA777 : Why stop there, lets see what we can blame Al Qaida for: 1.) The two 747s in Tenerife. 2.) The DC-10 flight 191 in ORD 3.) The Wind shear issue with D
46 Spacecadet : "According to the report, unconfirmed by any other authority, the information came to light following the arrest of Mohammed Mansour Jabarra, an al Q
47 RayChuang : OH PLEASE!! If AA 587 was brought down by a bomb there are things you'll notice: 1. You'll find the area where metal blew out from the point of explos
48 BENNETT123 : Spacecadet Just looked at your profile. Were'nt you at bit young in 1940. Did you shoot JFK as well.
49 JJMNGR : What is strange, not to say that it is ridiculous, is that a turbulence from a B747 ahead would cause an accident on a A300. If we were talking about
50 Aa777flyer : I highly doubt it was a bomb by Al Qaeda. If it was brought down by a bomb you would have a debris field scattered over a large area, several blocks.
51 Starlionblue : What is strange, not to say that it is ridiculous, is that a turbulence from a B747 ahead would cause an accident on a A300. If we were talking about
52 Highflier92660 : AA587 was probably brought down by the "happy feet" of the F/O who was handling the controls and had an instinctive momentary panic reaction to wake t
53 Thrust : Please...somebody already posted this topic several weeks ago. Yet another attempt by people to cause you think illogically. Like someone said earlier
54 Starlionblue : ...and the main cause was either an improperly fitted tail rudder, or pilot error... Actually it has already been found that the fin was much stronger
55 HlywdCatft : **If it was brought down by a bomb you would have a debris field scattered over a large area, several blocks.** I don't think a shoebomb would be powe
56 FDXmech : >>>AA587 was probably brought down by the "happy feet" of the F/O who was handling the controls and had an instinctive momentary panic reaction to wak
57 Starlionblue : FDXmech, great input as usual. In the joint letter and subsequently, Boeing, MD and Airbus recommended using ailerons to counter flight upsets first a
58 Sabenapilot : I do confirm that on a modern large airliner the rudder is NEVER touched, except to decrab the plane upon touchdown as yawdamper systems will take car
59 Milesrich : A shoe bomber? Was he attached to the rear vertical stabilizer? Get serious! And Al Qaeda shot down TW800 also, right? Oh, I forgot, it was the US Nav
60 Highflier92660 : FDXmech, thanks for the info. We all should probably get more input from the A&P crowd. I'm a 757/767 driver at another major carrier who has gotten a
61 FDXmech : Thank You Starlionblue and Highflier92660 (welcome to A.net) for your kind words. >>>Also, first thing any type rating instructor told me: NEVER PUMP
62 Milesrich : I just saw that this "story" originated with Maariv. I really don't understand it since Purim is still months away. It's time for Rosh Hashanah, Yom K
63 Starlionblue : I think this caught everyone flatfooted, including Airbus. This isn't a problem at low speeds (below 165kts), rather elevated airspeeds. The A300-600/
64 DeskPilot : Talking about other crashes mentioned... Why is there disbelief that TWA800 was brought down by an explosion in the centre fuel tank ? Events were; lo
65 Post contains images Sabenapilot : FDXmech, I have to agree with you the A300-600 rudder design has indeed a very sensitive limiting system at high speeds because of its method of limit
66 AFROTC : I'm no explosives expert, but I don't think a little shoe bomb will bring down a widebody. For example in August 11th 1982 on Pan Am flight 830(i thin
67 FDXmech : >>>You say the A300-600/A310 rudder pedal travel and corresponding extremely low rudder pedal breakout forces is way out of the norm, but I do NOT agr
68 Sabenapilot : Very interesting technical data FDXMech and it shows us with numbers what we both have already concluded by words: i.e. the current Airbus rudder limi
69 NIKV69 : One of the differences with TWA800 is that there were eyewitnesses including a pilot in the area that saw a missile hit the aircraft. I am of the beli
70 Starlionblue : AA587 is totally different, it was a loss of control due to the wake of JAL 747. Although the findings are not conclusive, it's rather clear at this p
71 JJMNGR : Starlionblue Unfortunatelly, reports, thousands of paper...they can accept anything. The real truth, nobody really is going to know...same thing with
72 Starlionblue : Unfortunatelly, reports, thousands of paper...they can accept anything. The real truth, nobody really is going to know...same thing with B747 of TW, K
73 Post contains links Starlionblue : http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1742302/
74 Post contains links Spacecadet : Spacecadet Just looked at your profile. Were'nt you at bit young in 1940. Did you shoot JFK as well. If Al Qaeda brought this plane down, then yes, I
75 Post contains links Starlionblue : Thread change: http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1742684/ for the NTSB investigation. BTW Spacecadet great post.
76 FDXmech : >>>I now of, so although there was a rather important design modification from a technical point of view (which is quite interesting for you as a mech
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