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BW: A Vs B Gets Ugly  
User currently offlineJoni From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (10 years 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2927 times:


Some interesting views at

http://yahoo.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_38/b3900083_mz054.htm


18 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineJoni From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (10 years 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2789 times:


On Airbus' response to 7e7:

"The more Airbus can get airlines wondering what its next move will be, the more the airlines are likely to delay a decision on ordering the 7E7, says Richard Aboulafia, an aerospace consultant with Teal Group in Fairfax, Va. "

...

"Alas for Boeing, the psychological warfare may be working. No major carrier has announced an order for the 7E7 since last spring when Japan's All Nippon Airways Co. (ALNPY ) ordered 50."

...

"many industry watchers were surprised when Boeing failed to land any 7E7 orders at the Farnborough Air Show in Britain in July. Then on Aug. 25, Singapore Airlines Ltd. delayed indefinitely a decision on ordering the 7E7 or the A330. "




User currently offlinePlanelymad From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 20 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (10 years 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2769 times:

There is some useful analysis on the 7E7 vs A330 markets which - unlike many posts in this forum - has some factual information behind it - at the following link:

http://www.planemarkets.com/mainlinejets.htm

Read it and make up your own minds who will win out.

It seems difficult to see Airbus introducing an interim aircraft in the form of an updated A330-200 when the current aircraft is selling well, and they have made a living out of being innovators (a position which Boeing is challenging with both the 777-300ER and the 7E7). With a little more time could produce something truly competitive to the 7E7. They'll have to do it at some point anyway to remain competitive with their future product range. I think they'll tough it out until they get something very juicy and meanwhile as Aboulafia says, they'll play the marketing game which they are expert at.


User currently offlineSolnabo From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 852 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (10 years 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2739 times:

If Boeing 7e7 orders are to be 200 before years end, they better hurry  Big grin

Micke/SE Big grin



Airbus SAS - Love them both
User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4106 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (10 years 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2606 times:

What ever happened to the 60 frames China was going to order 3 months ago? Airlines shouldn't wait around for Airbus, they can't make anything better right now, look at all the new technology in the 7E7! If anything, it would be a similar model, or another A330 redesign...not meant to bash Airbus, but they already have other designs being engineered, and I don't see them building from scratch.

User currently offlineCol From Malaysia, joined Nov 2003, 2116 posts, RR: 22
Reply 5, posted (10 years 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2561 times:

Customer confidence may also be playing a part. Airbus have delivered more on their promises recently, while Boeing has not been decisive enough. The 777 and its developments have helped, but is it enough to build back confidence?

User currently offlineAirbus Lover From Malaysia, joined Apr 2000, 3248 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (10 years 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2364 times:

FriendlySkies.

Sometimes with 'promising' too many new technologies? How do we know they are well tested and going to work well. It could delay EIS by significant time frame should any technology issues arise. It's not always good to have "all the new technology in the 7E7".

Having said that, I do think the 7E7 will have a bright future.


User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4106 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (10 years 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2277 times:

Airbus_Lover:

I'm not saying they are proven technologies. However, I am saying that Airbus probably couldn't do any better than the 7E7. It works both ways, neither company will be able to come up with a break-through technology that the other won't be able to match in the short run. However, based on Boeing's history, I am confident that all of the promises Boeing has made will be kept. Guess we'll all find out in '08!


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 977 posts, RR: 51
Reply 8, posted (10 years 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2261 times:

From the article-

But will this idea ever fly? A reworked A330 might cost a little less than the 7E7's $120 million list price, but almost certainly couldn't match the fuel savings and operating efficiencies that are the Boeing plane's key selling points.

We witnessed this effect with the 777. The 777 carried a significantly higher aquistion price, which has scared many customers away, but the vast majority have been more than willing to pay for the 777s killer performance.

Why would the 7E7 be any different?

"Alas for Boeing, the psychological warfare may be working. No major carrier has announced an order for the 7E7 since last spring when Japan's All Nippon Airways Co. (ALNPY ) ordered 50."

For now, Boeing likely has all of the 2008 delivery slots filled, just with the 2 firm orders/1 pending order and likely deposits on slot garuntees. With 2009 5 years away, Boeing has pleanty of time to fill these order slots.

What is important is the interest in the 7E7. There is hardly an airline in the world that has rejected the 7E7 or failed to say something positive about it, more than any Sonic Cruiser, 747-X, even A380 can say. There is interest, there is need, there just isn't the willingness to buy a major new fleet type yet.

Think of AA and CO alone, two major U.S. carriers who between them could order 150 once they are financially stable.... a state they will likely reach before 2008.

What ever happened to the 60 frames China was going to order 3 months ago?

China orders are only surpassed in beuracracy by India.... the next order will likely be either VN (80% likely IMO) or NW/KLM/Skyteam (40% likely IMO).


User currently offlineDc10guy From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 2685 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (10 years 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2214 times:

One thing is for sure, Boeing will do anything to keep from having to compete. Competition is something Boeing doesn't understand.


Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
User currently offlinePlanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6197 posts, RR: 34
Reply 10, posted (10 years 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2177 times:

"Think of AA and CO alone, two major U.S. carriers who between them could order 150 once they are financially stable.... a state they will likely reach before 2008."

"...there just isn't the willingness to buy a major new fleet type yet."


2009... 5 years from now is a long time and that is just one reason why I suspect that there hasn´t been any desire to sign orders. No one knows what will be the state of the industry in 4-5 years - and stable is not profitable. Indeed, there are just too many variables and uncertainties "to buy a major new fleet type... yet."



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineJoni From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (10 years 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1637 times:


DfwRevolution,

That the 777 worked well despite its high price has nothing to do with whether the 7E7 will work well despite it's high price. They're simply different planes competing against different planes in different markets and for partly different customers.



User currently offlineRJ111 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (10 years 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1447 times:

but the vast majority have been more than willing to pay for the 777s killer performance.

Which made me think...

Airliner operating/on order A343 = 26
Airlines operating/on order 772ER = 29

Hardly the "vast majority"

Although you could conclude that the larger airlines who are in a better position to choose quality over quantity, have done so.......or something like that.


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (10 years 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1368 times:


The EU says $5.2 billion in such loans are now outstanding and Airbus has already repaid $6.5 billion.

Boeing's gripe is that the pact lets Airbus avoid repaying the loans in full if sales of the aircraft that is being financed fall short of forecasts. Airbus says that has never occurred.

Even so, Boeing contends the deal gives Airbus an advantage by lowering its commercial risk, making it easier to obtain financing.


So :

Airbus is repaying its loans, $6.5 Billion sofar.
It has not been subsidized when programs under sold, Boeing problem is more a theoretical one.

Some some users should slowly reread & inhale this several times ..

It´s not what Boeing made us believe & has been shouted around for years on this forum.

I don´t think the billions in benefits and tax breaks in the U.S. and in foreign countries will be repaid, will they ?



User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 977 posts, RR: 51
Reply 14, posted (10 years 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1297 times:

That the 777 worked well despite its high price has nothing to do with whether the 7E7 will work well despite it's high price. They're simply different planes competing against different planes in different markets and for partly different customers.

No, it has everything to do with this argument. Airbus is making two very dubious claims- A. The A350 will be cheaper to acquire than the 7E7, and B. The A350 will be "good enough" to compete with the 7E7.

Let's say Airbus delivers on claim A (a big stretch I might add) and manufacture the A350 for less than the 7E7. Since Airbus current plans for the 7E7 do not include matching or exceeding the 7E7, but rather closing the 7E7's gap, the price of the A350 immediately becomes irrelevant.

Large airlines who intend to fly 30-60+ of a single type can without even flinching fork over the extra money to acquire the 7E7. In large fleets that fly for nearly 2 decades, that one extra percent here and there adds up big time. However, for smaller fleets that intend to acquire maybe 5-10, this isn't as important as lower acquisition cost.

This is exactly why 29 airlines operate 500 777s and 26 airlines operate 280 A340.


User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1885 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (10 years 1 week 1 day ago) and read 1185 times:

I still believe Airbus shouldn't rush and develop an all-new airplane with superior performance to 7E7. They are certainly capable of doing it. If the article says that the earliest it would fly would be 2011, then I think three extra years of wait is worth it. 777 flew 5 years after A340 and look where it is now...


STOP TERRORRUSSIA!!!
User currently offlineAvObserver From United States of America, joined Apr 2002, 2472 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (10 years 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 1147 times:

"You might think Airbus would want to clear up the confusion -- but you'd be wrong. The more Airbus can get airlines wondering what its next move will be, the more the airlines are likely to delay a decision on ordering the 7E7, says Richard Aboulafia, an aerospace consultant with Teal Group in Fairfax, Va. "Their objective isn't to build a plane, it's to undermine the 7E7 business case," he says.

This tells us as much about the Airbus strategy as we need to know.


User currently offlineBigB From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 596 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (10 years 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 1101 times:

777 flew 5 years after A340 and look where it is now

Thats funny because more 777s have be delivered than the A340. TOTAL.



ETSN Baber, USN
User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12569 posts, RR: 46
Reply 18, posted (10 years 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 1023 times:
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Thats funny because more 777s have be delivered than the A340. TOTAL.

That was exactly his point! The second a/c on the scene has secured more orders.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
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