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State Of Aviation In ROC  
User currently offlineLHMark From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 7255 posts, RR: 46
Posted (10 years 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2561 times:

We haven't had a 'ROC Represents' thread in a couple of years, and a lot has changed. Independence Air is in, AA is out (except for American Eagle). The Fares to and from this fair city are almost approaching reasonable levels, and I'm awaiting a chance to see the EMB-170

On a sad note, Rochester aviation guru Bill Law, whose school, Bill Law Aviation, trained more pilots than anyone in this burg, Died in a plane crash. He was a good guy who always had time to talk Aviation. I spent half an hour with Bill once, for no reason. He was just a garrulous, nice guy who loved to fly.

Anyone care to analyze the current state of ROC aviation more deeply?


"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
17 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineAa61hvy From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 13977 posts, RR: 57
Reply 1, posted (10 years 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2554 times:

It's non existant, 737s A319s (maybe) and RJ's.


Go big or go home
User currently offlineLhmark From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 7255 posts, RR: 46
Reply 2, posted (10 years 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2549 times:

We're also seeing the 717, Bae-146, and (for heart-stopping excitement) FedEx A310s and A300s.


"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
User currently offlineJcooke From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 81 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (10 years 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2537 times:

What's going on with 8/26? I've probably missed alot since I moved back to the PHL area in July. When I was up for the night (drove) back at the end of August they had a flashing X at the beginning of 8.

I think I'll be up in the next coming weeks on a MR/visit but I'm not sure if I'll use a UA CS25 and get 6 segments or fly up on UA for 4 segments. Considering there's plenty of turboprops and RJ's to choose from...ick  Smile Hopefully I can catch something worthy.

-JC


User currently offlineDesertJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7780 posts, RR: 16
Reply 4, posted (10 years 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2525 times:

Don't forget those Commutair B1900s to Albany.


Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
User currently offlineFlybyguy From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 1801 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (10 years 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2526 times:

I don't know what people in Rochester are complaining about. What about us people down in Ithaca? USairways soon to be a distant memory. Its the only airline flying out of this town (prices were cut-throat) $500-$800 rt to LGA PHL or PIT (I live in the Caribbean so I have to deal with AA's inflated prices over there as well). What's worse is that we will have no air-transport at all out of Ithaca in a couple months. To get home and not own a car is a challenge when traveling out of Ithaca. Pay the cutthroat taxis $115 to drive you to SYR where you can get reasonable airfares, but only to barely break even after the taxi. Or take the Ithaca Airline limousine (hardly worth the $50 for the 30min drive to SYR ... You could buy a one way CoachUSA ticket to NYC for less than that  Yeah sure)

I think people in Rochester, Syracuse, and Buffalo have it easy and far cheaper.



"Are you a pretender... or a thoroughbred?!" - Professor Matt Miller
User currently offlineDCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4506 posts, RR: 33
Reply 6, posted (10 years 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2526 times:

I'd say the state of aviation at ROC is improving, but not where it needs to be. It's far better than it was in, say, 1999. We have excellent low-fare service on major soutbound routes from JetBlue and AirTran. Independence has given us a lot of backfill on medium-size and medium-small East Coast routes; let's hope Indy lasts. But we still have some serious gaps, such as Boston, Chicago, Detroit, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh (US wanted $358 for a 2-month advance refundable in June--gack) and much of the West Coast.

Certainly our improving enplanements, up 10 percent from last year's 2.5 million and forecast to pass 1987's record of 2.6 million, are something to cheer about. The bright side of the disapperance of 727's, DC-9's, most 737's, and the huge growth in RJ's, is that we are gaining lots of frequency, and even with less seat capacity we're still recording record enplanements. Like other Rochesterians I miss the United 727's, USAir DC-9's, Empire F-28s, and Eastern 727's that once populated our apron. But if our carriers are to make money here, they need to fly the right size a/c and number of frequencies.

I stand by my longtime estimate that our natural enplanements level today, with a proper distribution of low fares, would be around 3-3.2 million. In the 1990's, with the economy still strong and Rochester businesses in better condition, it probably would have been around 3.5 or higher, had we had Southwest then. US Airways screwed us in a big, big way, which should never be forgotten.

I don't have recent numbers for air cargo, but I'd bet it hasn't been growing much--the increasing size of FedEx planes on the south side of the airport has been matched by the disappearance of DC-8's at US Airports. Anyone on the ground in Rochester have more detailed info? Side note: three cheers for Scott Kerhaert, getting the first shot of two FedEx A300's at ROC simultaneously in one frame! See the photo at http://www.myaviation.net/search/photo_search.php?id=00186236&size=large

I could barely believe it when the Democrat & Chronicle reported this week that US Airways is down to 21.5 percent of traffic, from around 50 percent during the 1990's. Our three low-fare carriers flew 30 percent of traffic in August. All of this is big progress. I think our market, like much of the country, will eventually settle out at around 50 LCC/ 50 network when the proper balance of LCC and network capacity is achieved sometime later in the decade.

The future? Unless US Airways goes under, which I think unlikely because this financial zombie seems to have nine lives, we probably won't ever see Southwest. It stinks that Buffalo gets them and we don't, but without the loss of US I don't know that ROC can support 10 new daily 737's all at once. If US does go under, I think the chance of both ROC and SYR getting WN is better than 50 percent, ROC being more likely because of our bigger population and higher per-capita income.

We have several options for closing existing low-fare gaps in our route map. AirTran or JetBlue could profitably serve Boston with two dailies; I'd bet once the EMB-190's arrive JetBlue could do three. Independence Air, if it proves to have a viable cost structure, will have killer dot-connecting potential with those little jets. Two or three dailies to Pittsburgh, and four to Philly, probably would do very well.

Chicago is a bigger problem. AirTran tried and failed in the late '90s to establish a focus operation at Midway. Southwest isn't flying to MDW from either ALB or BUF, which surprises me; but if they came here, probably would be similar. JetBlue still hasn't gotten enough gates at ORD to start the kind of operation they want there. Independence Air hasn't been around long enough to see if they'll try to spread into the Midwest in a big way. ATA is on shaky ground right now, and they're probably going to downsize the MDW operation as it is. They don't have any a/c suited for Upstate NY-Chicago routes; 738's are too big and the Saabs busy on their regional routes.

Once Indy gets going to the West Coast, we'll have much better options than we do now. AirTran makes you go all the way to Atlanta to connect, and only serves SFO, LAX, PHX. JetBlue has great connections to LGB, LAS, and OAK, but only redeye to ONT, SEA, and I think SAN (please correct me if wrong).

That's all for now, more later if I think of anything else.

Jim



Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
User currently offlineUnited_Fan From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 7496 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (10 years 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 2481 times:

LHMark,we get the E170 daily from Philly.

Airline Us Airways
Flight Number 1608
Departure City (Airport) Philadelphia, PA (PHL)
Departure Time 09/15/2004 02:23 PM
Arrival City (Airport) Rochester, NY (ROC)
Arrival Time 09/15/2004 03:09 PM
Remaining Flight Time 00:00
Aircraft Type E170
Current Altitude 0 feet
Current Groundspeed 0 mph
Flight Status Arrived


Mike,thanks for the props on my Fed Ex pic! With the sun going down earlier nowadays I won't have many more chances on weekdays to spot.

I haven't seen a DC-8 in a long time.

We did get a Delta 763 to drop off and pick up the Browns from the Bills' training camp.
http://myaviation.net/search/photo_search.php?id=00165707

I also got Indy Air on thier first day:
http://myaviation.net/search/photo_search.php?id=00153931

Fed Ex temporarily was putting a 727-200 back in here from MEM. It came in around 7pm. Great to be able to 'shoot' a 727 in daylight! They have since gone back to A300/10's.

http://myaviation.net/search/photo_search.php?id=00175005

Xerox just got a new Challenger,N1090X, it's gorgeous . It's silver,I'm still trying to get a shot of it,but I haven't got a descent angle on it.

We still get Kodak's Challenger.
http://myaviation.net/search/photo_search.php?id=00181130




'Empathy was yesterday...Today, you're wasting my Mother-F'ing time' - Heat.
User currently offlineDCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4506 posts, RR: 33
Reply 8, posted (10 years 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 2457 times:

I've long noticed that Kodak's challenger closely resembles the old Best Airlines paint scheme. Best served Rochester from about 1983-1987 with DC-9-10's.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © George W. Hamlin



Actually that was me who noticed the FedEx pic, Scott. Keep your eagle eyes open, one of these days they're going to fly an MD-10 or MD-11 in on substitution. Good work on the DL 763 and Indy too. The Indy pic is especially good because it's got our terminal building in the background.

Jim



Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
User currently offlineUnited_Fan From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 7496 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (10 years 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2409 times:

I meant to type,Jim,sorry . The Indy shot was courtesy of the Airshow,which you could stand parallel to rw 28 . Too bad the sun didn't cooperate that whole weekend.
Maybe we'll see a DC/MD-10,maybe around Christmas. The MD11 is doubtful,aren't they used on long range routes ?



'Empathy was yesterday...Today, you're wasting my Mother-F'ing time' - Heat.
User currently offlineZrb2 From United States of America, joined May 2000, 896 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (10 years 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2408 times:

I don't know what people in Rochester are complaining about. What about us people down in Ithaca?

I've got a soft spot for Ithaca. I went to college down there but only flew out of Tompkins County one time due to the crazy airfares back then (late 80's). For Spring break I remember going up to SYR to fly to FLL. Sounds like things haven't changed much re: airfares. I did visit the beautiful terminal they have on a recent visit to Ithaca....impressive!

Cheers Rochester,,,,you guys have become a low fare kingdom much like BUF (minus WN). Flying into WNY used to cost a boatload. Now if you're paying alot, you're not looking very hard.


User currently offlineUnited_Fan From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 7496 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (10 years 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2393 times:

Also,does anyone know if FL will use thier new 73G's when they start the service to FLL ?
We don't see ANY NG737's here anymore. Just 300's & 500's.



'Empathy was yesterday...Today, you're wasting my Mother-F'ing time' - Heat.
User currently offlineLHMark From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 7255 posts, RR: 46
Reply 12, posted (10 years 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2363 times:

Jim, thanks for the in-depth picture. I was wondering about WN's intent, were US to disintegrate.

I haven't been to the airport in a while. Have they successfully cordoned off the Phillips European so no non-ticketed passengers can get to it?



"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
User currently offlineDCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4506 posts, RR: 33
Reply 13, posted (10 years 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2314 times:

The new central security checkpoint is supposed to be finished in November. Enjoy Phillips European while you can! I was at CLE this summer, which now has a centralized checkpoint. They closed off CLE's concession mall, Catholic chapel, and views of the apron, from nonpax. It stinks. Now there's not even anyplace to buy a postcard of the airport outside of security, though you can get coffee.

Slaybaugh told the D & C last spring that apparently the area his offices now occupy will become a viewing area, so at least nonpax can watch Rwy 22 action. Don't know if there will be any concessions or anything outside security.

I doubt that AirTran will fly 73G's into Rochester; they're getting those for transcon routes, and extra density to Florida. Maybe we'll get one on substitution. Has the 717 in the new paint scheme been to ROC yet? There are some pix here on A.net of it at Buffalo.

Jim



Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
User currently offlineLHMark From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 7255 posts, RR: 46
Reply 14, posted (10 years 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2301 times:

The 717 I saw today was not in the new scheme. They fly over my house on University Ave all the time, but I have yet to see a new AirTran scheme.

I understand there'll be concession carts in the ROC check-in area. Man, that's gonna be tight. Pity anyone waiting to pick someone up from a delayed flight. They won't even be able to get one of those amazing Phillips smoked turkey sandwiches.



"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
User currently offlineDCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4506 posts, RR: 33
Reply 15, posted (10 years 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2277 times:

Scott: A FedEx MD-10 substitution wouldn't be surprising; they fly those daily on domestic routes such as MHT. A quick check of the database shows MD-11's shot mostly at MEM, foreign airports, and a couple of big domestic airports like MIA, JFK, and their hub or whatever it is at ANC. FedEx DC-10s are featured at lots of domestic airports.

Jim



Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5433 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (10 years 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2225 times:

Flybyguy, is Elmira a reasonable airport for Ithacans to use? It doesn't have all that many flights, but it's closer than SYR, no?


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineJcooke From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 81 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (10 years 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2201 times:

Massey, closer (depending) but the frequencies of flights I believe is more limited.

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