BoeingBus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1595 posts, RR: 18 Posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 8819 times:
Interesting how they can settle some labor disputes yesterday and purchase new planes today! Good for them!
The planned acquisitions were outlined under Alitalia's 2005-2008 industrial plan, and include the purchase of 3 Boeing 767 aircraft in 2007, 2 Boeing 777 aircraft in 2007 and 2 Boeing 777 aircraft in 2008.
The company said it would purchase 4 Embraer 170 or 190 aircraft in 2007 and an additional 8 Embraer 170 or 190 aircraft in 2008.
LHR27C From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 1279 posts, RR: 17 Reply 1, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 8700 times:
Interesting that AZ, an airline struggling to avoid bankruptcy, can talk about ordering new aircraft, whilst BA, who are far more in profit, are firmly committed to completely cost cutting and not making any new orders! Admittedly the purchases will not be until 2007 and 2008, by which time hopefully AZ's future will look a bit brighter.
Once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned forever skyward
Cedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 7804 posts, RR: 54 Reply 9, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 8362 times:
How can the Italian gov't keep AZ in the air without breaking EU rules about subsidising unprofitable industry? If there is some underhand financing going on, I hope LH, BA, AF, KL, SK, OZ, EZY, FR, and of course the ex-employees of SN go on the rampage.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
BestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 6778 posts, RR: 57 Reply 10, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 8328 times:
Q - we are bleeding money, are billions in debt, have only one profitable route... what shall we do..
A - Oh, lets write a plan where we will bleed even more money, increase our debt even further, buy old inefficient 767's that are being abandoned by other airlines, and still only have one profitable route...
AZ have about 35 too many aircraft as it is today...whats wrong with droping other routes that are loss making in order to become profitable.
Alitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4709 posts, RR: 46 Reply 11, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 8315 times:
Old inefficient 767s? Last I checked they're still making money for many airlines. Their not inefficient and if you look around, you'ld see some airlines have between 50-100 of them. Yes in the long run they'll need to be replaced...but they're perfectly fine.
TW741 From Liechtenstein, joined Sep 2004, 478 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 8292 times:
How can the Italian gov't keep AZ in the air without breaking EU rules about subsidising unprofitable industry? If there is some underhand financing going on....
Splitting the present AZ into 2 parts has the following effects:
The airline AZ will be considerably small compared to present AZ - once "reorganised" they will get the "last" financial injection allowed by the EU.
The groundpart AZ will be considerably large and will remain state-owned - meaning - they can continue to receive subsidies without penalty payments or whatever.
EU does not allow state-financing of airlines out of competitive reasons. But there is nothing mentioned about subsidizing "ground companies".
Maybe they will also play the game like AB - the staff (with a few exceptions but including the pilots and cabin crews) is not employed with AB - they are employed with CHS - and are "leased" to AB. So in fact those guys are not even airline employees at AB.
So why not apply such a model to the new AZ? Frees a lot of money for purchasing/leasing aircraft...
Angelairways From United Kingdom, joined Nov 1999, 501 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 8208 times:
Yes, it is quite a farce, but getting rid of the burdensome ground handling is an excellent idea, and they actually managed to negotiate productivity increases with pilots.
They still have quite a staff 'attitude' problem to sort out though (customer friendliness and work ethic - or lack thereof). Alitalia staff have an 11% unexplained absence rate as well.
I think the reason they mention 767s is because they intend to purchase them secondhand and cheap... or lease them cheap anyhow.
Despite the dismal situation, whilst I was predicting a guaranteed downfall by the end of september, I have a funny feeling they might JUST about make it through and turnaround. The only reason I say this is because the CEO, Giancarlo Cimoli, was previously CEO of the Italian Railways and managed to turn them around to profitability within just a few years. Now everybody knows that railways are among the most inefficient and unprofitable businesses to run - just look at the contrast between Virgin Trains and Virgin Atlantic in the UK...
So if Cimoli can do it with the trains then he might be able to do it with Alitalia. The key is to win over those pathetically protective and stubborn unions.
Angelairways From United Kingdom, joined Nov 1999, 501 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 8107 times:
Yep N79969, that is correct. they have enough cash flow to keep going until the end of the month, roughly.
However, if Cimoli succeeds in negotiating all the staff cuts, productivity increases and the separation of AZ Services as a separate company, the cash coming in from ticket sales will suddenly be sufficient for a longer period, because it will not have to be spent on the ground handling unit's losses directly.
If the full restructuring takes place, they will also get a €400m loan, alas.
Mind you, i am in no way a defender of clumsy loss making enterprises, and I am totally against subsidies to airlines, but i am just cautiously optimistic that there is a small chance of survival beyond Sep 30th. This was also reflected by an increase in alitalia share price as soon as the pilot productivity increases were negotiated.
Angelairways From United Kingdom, joined Nov 1999, 501 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 8084 times:
Ah.. more news just in...
Alitalia Reaches Deal with Ground Staff, Flight Attendants Remain
Alitalia yesterday reached an additional cost-cutting deal, adding a ground staff agreement to its agreement reached Tuesday with the airline's pilots. Flight attendants remain the sole hold-outs to cost-cutting agreements the airline says it must make to commence its restructuring plan.
According to Reuters, Alitalia yesterday reached an agreement with ground staff that will see reduced pay and 2,500 job cuts. The airline will meet with its flight attendants union again today.
BestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 6778 posts, RR: 57 Reply 24, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 7991 times:
I find it odd that you're speaking this way, considering that without EU money, your country would still be a farmer country.
Europeans, including Italy, were VERY generous with Ireland."
What an interesting comment... Indeed Ireland, and Spain were reciepients of EU investment for the future. Ireland used this money to turn the economy around. Ireland is now one of the strongest economies in Europe. What a smart investment. Ireland and Spain now pay the EU to help other economies to achieve the same success story.
I have no arguement against Governments funding companies (such as Iberia and Aer Lingus) when this money is successfully used to turn around the business. However Alitalia has had many many investments from the Goverment, both directly and indirectly, and has failed to turn around the company, and will fail again.
This AZ funding is unfair to other European companies, such as BA, LH, FR, etc who are attempting to compete in the same marketplace without such funding, and threatens more jobs elsewhere, such as in Volare and Meridiana, who cannot grow and succeed to their potential due to the unfair Subsidisation of AZ.
The world is really getting smaller these days
25 Marcob2: "Arent the Italians just wonderful... It's amazing how the laws of economics just dont apply down there." Dear BestWestern, since you are making thing
26 Lindy: From my point of view: I think that Alitalia went for 767 and 777 because they have made their calculations and they figured out that they will need e
27 BestWestern: Marcob2 - this is an aviation forum... I was talking about the basket case Italian airline Alitalia, and the Italian governments attempts to keep it a
28 ScottysAir: This is mean for more new Boeing aircraft with the 777 aircraft and it is make for expansion on the long haul flights out of MXP & FCO. I am complain
29 Sarrebal: Bestwestern, AZ funding is unfair to FR? Ahah....that was a good one! Because it was a joke, right?
30 UA744KSFO: BestWestern and Cedarjet, Racism is completely inappropriate when discussing the airline industry! My entire family is Italian and I really don't appr
31 Aeronuts: Interesting discussion, like many kids who wants the new toy's, the call to dump the "old" 767 and get the "new" 7E7 as if it's already a plane availa
32 Behramjee: Out of everyones viewpoints...LINDY's is the one that makes most sense Now we all know that AZ is severly short of cash and therefore the very thought
33 MarcoB2: If AZ is buying airplanes, that means that there's got to be a reason. I don't think the CEO decides to buy whatever and whenever he wants, right? So,
34 Rlwynn: Know what is kind of funny? The only Italian customer I have, Actually pays me in Pizzas. But that is just me being nice to him.
35 MarcoB2: You know what Rlwynn? I have a stong will to reply to your post with something that would make you hurt as much as you hurted me. But I am Italian, an
36 DIA: UA744KSFO said: "BestWestern and Cedarjet, Racism is completely inappropriate when discussing the airline industry! My entire family is Italian and I
37 Gearup: Good post DIA, As a Canadian of Irish birth I am a little disapointed at the Italian bashing thats going on here. Guys the contribution that Italians
38 Rlwynn: Why the hell would that hurt you? I do advertising, the guy has a small pizza and ice place. I do work for him and he pays me in pizzas. Has done so f
39 PANAM_DC10: Bahramjee I think AZ has options to convert any -200ERs with BOEING to -300ERs...am I right? Yes they have 6 options and IIRC they also have 6 purchas
40 Scotron11: I think this discussion is about AZ possibly purchasing additional aircraft, folks! Let's keep on the subject. I initially dismissed this post as I do
41 MarcoB2: Alright, that's it. You think you are funny, but your brain is too small to show you what's inside your country. 1) You spoke about Parmalat? What abo
42 Sarrebal: Rlwynn, I'm extremely racist. But just against stupid people. And they're from all over the world, even from the US. PS: Where do you want me to ship
43 MarcoB2: Officially 2,500 were the job cuts. However the gov't is trying to do everything to cut 5,000. I don't know if they will, but that's what the gov't wa
44 DfwRevolution: I have a stong will to reply to your post with something that would make you hurt as much as you hurted me. But I am Italian, and I will control mysel
45 Rlwynn: Hopefully the Italian government and the airline can see that they are on the ropes big time. I think that realization will be the only thing to save
46 Whitehatter: None of this actually makes any sense without a look at the GECAS leasing arrangements Alitalia has. There may be aircraft coming off lease which will
47 Aeronuts: Scotron11, must be english humor... "As to fleet commonality, how many planes does AZ have, 35? It hardly makes them a "major" carrier! More than like
48 Baw716: Hi everyone, Just for the record, I am an ex Alitalia manager, who developed a terrific franchise in a major US city and afterward got hit by 9/11 and
49 Alitalia744: BAW716 you have just earned my respect. Great post about the truth of Alitalia.
50 Baw716: Alitalia744, Grazie mille. Working at Alitalia was the greatest job I ever had. Yes, it was hard work, and sometimes it drove me crazy. Once I got to
51 777ER: Way to go Boeing and Embraer But I can't see why AZ should be buying new planes when they are trying to aviod going bankrupt.
52 Carpethead: Could it be the fact that long-haul flights are the bread-and-butter and make the most profits; while, intra-European flights are marginal or making l
53 PacificWestern: And since when is Alitalia the only debt ridden and mismanaged airline that is seeking to buy new aircraft? MiltonAir has done it as have others.
54 Alitalia744: BAW716 - hope all gets well. Alitalia, in my opinion has been and continues to be the best airline. It's shocking to me what some of the people on thi
55 777-500ER: LONG LIVE ALITALIA! FORZA RAGAZZI! Michael SFO
56 Alitalia744: Ciao MichaelSFO! come stai? Alitalia will survive.
57 BuyantUkhaa: Aren't half of those Embraers the same ones that were already on the order list of Alitalia Express? I just looked at the July issue of ATW with the f
58 Boo25: This seems ludicrous -don't they need to sort out a MASSIVE financial problem first? They have just LOST $400Million in 6 MONTHS because their staff r
59 AirMale: Alitalia will always be around, Mr Berlusconi and his friends will make sure. Bella Italia!!
60 Angelairways: If I had some spare money right now... I'd buy Alitalia shares... they are so cheap and I have a funny feeling they will just about pull through and t
61 BENNETT123: I think that some people are getting carried away here. Firstly, none of these aircraft will be delivered until 2007. Secondly, they are quite modest
62 TW741: ok the thread is AZ buying Boeing/Emb airplanes - but there is such a mix of posts in here .... To my mind one thing is important - Italians prefer to
63 Zvezda: I've just added Baw716 to my list of respected users. Great post. I'm disapointed that so many rush to cry "Racist!" over an ethnic sense of humor. I
64 Steman: Dear TW741, many thanks for your nice words about Italians. However what you have written is far from being the truth. The truth is that Italians pref