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Alitalia To Buy Boeing, Embraer Planes  
User currently offlineBoeingBus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1596 posts, RR: 17
Posted (10 years 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 9461 times:

Interesting how they can settle some labor disputes yesterday and purchase new planes today! Good for them!


The planned acquisitions were outlined under Alitalia's 2005-2008 industrial plan, and include the purchase of 3 Boeing 767 aircraft in 2007, 2 Boeing 777 aircraft in 2007 and 2 Boeing 777 aircraft in 2008.

The company said it would purchase 4 Embraer 170 or 190 aircraft in 2007 and an additional 8 Embraer 170 or 190 aircraft in 2008.

http://yahoo.reuters.com/financeQuoteCompanyNewsArticle.jhtml?duid=mtfh02848_2004-09-16_12-26-03_l1636401_newsml


Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
74 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLHR27C From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 1279 posts, RR: 16
Reply 1, posted (10 years 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 9342 times:

Interesting that AZ, an airline struggling to avoid bankruptcy, can talk about ordering new aircraft, whilst BA, who are far more in profit, are firmly committed to completely cost cutting and not making any new orders! Admittedly the purchases will not be until 2007 and 2008, by which time hopefully AZ's future will look a bit brighter.


Once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned forever skyward
User currently offlineArniepie From Belgium, joined Aug 2005, 1265 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (10 years 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 9337 times:

I hope they are allowed to pay with pizza's because they surely ain't got the cash for it!!


[edit post]
User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4105 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (10 years 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 9318 times:

Why would they buy 767s in 2007 when they could get CHEAPER 7E7s with better economics in 2008? Oh well, good news for Boeing and Embraer if AZ is still around then.

User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3509 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (10 years 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 9306 times:

Why would they buy 767s in 2007 when they could get CHEAPER 7E7s with better economics in 2008? Oh well, good news for Boeing and Embraer if AZ is still around then.

Yet another proof that they have no clue what they're doing. This airline is sick from the top to the bottom.

[Edited 2004-09-16 15:08:49]

User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7957 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (10 years 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 9275 times:

Maybe the purchase of only three 7E7 wouldn't be a financially wise decision (Spare parts, maintenance, training ... )? Six or or ten 7E7 - fine, but only three?

Furthermore, those 767 may be pre-used. I wonder why they don't plan to lease them, though.



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineTACAA320 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (10 years 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 9255 times:

Can AZ pay for that?????????




//////////////////////////////////////


User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7149 posts, RR: 57
Reply 7, posted (10 years 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 9052 times:

Cedar, Laws of economics don't apply to Alitalia. They will not go under.




The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4748 posts, RR: 44
Reply 8, posted (10 years 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 9046 times:

Has anyone thought that the cost of introducing a new fleet type, associated engineering required, training, support facilities, etc. may be more costly than the associated savings?

Alitalia will be around in 2008. They will fly 7E7's some day, at this point in time, it does not make sense financially.

-g



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineCedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8114 posts, RR: 54
Reply 9, posted (10 years 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 9004 times:

How can the Italian gov't keep AZ in the air without breaking EU rules about subsidising unprofitable industry? If there is some underhand financing going on, I hope LH, BA, AF, KL, SK, OZ, EZY, FR, and of course the ex-employees of SN go on the rampage.


fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7149 posts, RR: 57
Reply 10, posted (10 years 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 8970 times:

Q - we are bleeding money, are billions in debt, have only one profitable route... what shall we do..

A - Oh, lets write a plan where we will bleed even more money, increase our debt even further, buy old inefficient 767's that are being abandoned by other airlines, and still only have one profitable route...

AZ have about 35 too many aircraft as it is today...whats wrong with droping other routes that are loss making in order to become profitable.

Roll on FR on CIA BGY...



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4748 posts, RR: 44
Reply 11, posted (10 years 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 8957 times:

BestWestern-

Old inefficient 767s? Last I checked they're still making money for many airlines. Their not inefficient and if you look around, you'ld see some airlines have between 50-100 of them. Yes in the long run they'll need to be replaced...but they're perfectly fine.




Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineTW741 From Liechtenstein, joined Sep 2004, 478 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (10 years 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 8934 times:

Cedarjet
How can the Italian gov't keep AZ in the air without breaking EU rules about subsidising unprofitable industry? If there is some underhand financing going on....


Splitting the present AZ into 2 parts has the following effects:
The airline AZ will be considerably small compared to present AZ - once "reorganised" they will get the "last" financial injection allowed by the EU.
The groundpart AZ will be considerably large and will remain state-owned - meaning - they can continue to receive subsidies without penalty payments or whatever.
EU does not allow state-financing of airlines out of competitive reasons. But there is nothing mentioned about subsidizing "ground companies".

Maybe they will also play the game like AB - the staff (with a few exceptions but including the pilots and cabin crews) is not employed with AB - they are employed with CHS - and are "leased" to AB. So in fact those guys are not even airline employees at AB.
So why not apply such a model to the new AZ? Frees a lot of money for purchasing/leasing aircraft...

Just my thoughts
=TW741=



TWA - we showed you how good we have been!
User currently offlineSarrebal From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 67 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (10 years 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 8907 times:

The usual racist and stupid comments about Italians...

And it's funny to see Irish people talking about how to run a company in a profitable way.... They must have lost their memory.

Cedarjet,
Shame on your company then. Your accounting executives must be a little lazy...


User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7149 posts, RR: 57
Reply 14, posted (10 years 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 8881 times:

Perhaps Sarrebal should look closer to home.. How many loss making american carriers are flying today... (actually, perhaps name the profitable ones... it will be a shorter list)


Regarding Racism - How are your comments re the Irish are different to mine re Italians??

But I have a question Name one loss making Irish airline in operation today?


[Edited 2004-09-16 16:35:40]


The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (10 years 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 8880 times:

I have a feeling that neither Boeing nor Embraer will be chalking these airplanes up on their backlog.

User currently offlineAngelairways From United Kingdom, joined Nov 1999, 502 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (10 years 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 8850 times:

Yes, it is quite a farce, but getting rid of the burdensome ground handling is an excellent idea, and they actually managed to negotiate productivity increases with pilots.

They still have quite a staff 'attitude' problem to sort out though (customer friendliness and work ethic - or lack thereof). Alitalia staff have an 11% unexplained absence rate as well.

I think the reason they mention 767s is because they intend to purchase them secondhand and cheap... or lease them cheap anyhow.

Despite the dismal situation, whilst I was predicting a guaranteed downfall by the end of september, I have a funny feeling they might JUST about make it through and turnaround. The only reason I say this is because the CEO, Giancarlo Cimoli, was previously CEO of the Italian Railways and managed to turn them around to profitability within just a few years. Now everybody knows that railways are among the most inefficient and unprofitable businesses to run - just look at the contrast between Virgin Trains and Virgin Atlantic in the UK...

So if Cimoli can do it with the trains then he might be able to do it with Alitalia. The key is to win over those pathetically protective and stubborn unions.



User currently offlineSarrebal From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 67 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (10 years 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 8822 times:

Bestwestern,

Every US carrier but WN and B6 is losing money.
That doesn't mean Americans are not able to run businesses.

I work for an Italian company and we have a textbook management. And no, we do not pay vendors with pizza (that was the racist and stupid comment).


User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (10 years 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 8811 times:

Angelairways,

Apparently Cimoli only has a few days and not years to fix Alitalia. I read they have enough cash to pay staff through the end of the month and that is it. Is this correct?


User currently offlineSebolino From France, joined May 2001, 3681 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (10 years 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 8777 times:

Bestwestern,

I find it odd that you're speaking this way, considering that without EU money, your country would still be a farmer country.
Europeans, including Italy, were VERY generous with Ireland.


User currently offlineAngelairways From United Kingdom, joined Nov 1999, 502 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (10 years 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 8749 times:

Yep N79969, that is correct. they have enough cash flow to keep going until the end of the month, roughly.

However, if Cimoli succeeds in negotiating all the staff cuts, productivity increases and the separation of AZ Services as a separate company, the cash coming in from ticket sales will suddenly be sufficient for a longer period, because it will not have to be spent on the ground handling unit's losses directly.

If the full restructuring takes place, they will also get a €400m loan, alas.

Mind you, i am in no way a defender of clumsy loss making enterprises, and I am totally against subsidies to airlines, but i am just cautiously optimistic that there is a small chance of survival beyond Sep 30th. This was also reflected by an increase in alitalia share price as soon as the pilot productivity increases were negotiated.



User currently offlineAngelairways From United Kingdom, joined Nov 1999, 502 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (10 years 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 8726 times:

Ah.. more news just in...

Alitalia Reaches Deal with Ground Staff, Flight Attendants Remain
*************************************************


Alitalia yesterday reached an additional cost-cutting deal, adding a ground staff agreement to its agreement reached Tuesday with the airline's pilots. Flight attendants remain the sole hold-outs to cost-cutting agreements the airline says it must make to commence its restructuring plan.

According to Reuters, Alitalia yesterday reached an agreement with ground staff that will see reduced pay and 2,500 job cuts. The airline will meet with its flight attendants union again today.



User currently offlineBoeingBus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1596 posts, RR: 17
Reply 22, posted (10 years 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 8729 times:

Thanks Sebolino... you beat me to it...


Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
User currently offlineBENNETT123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7604 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (10 years 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 8633 times:

I am not clear whether this is going to mean increased capacity or are they replacing some existing aircraft.

If the former, where will they be used, if the latter what is to be replaced.

I was not aware that the B767 was going to be in production in 2007, so these will probably be used airframes. I would anticipate them being leased.

I think that the 7E7 is likely to be ordered in future, but not yet.

By 2007, many of their MD82 are likely to be replaced because they do not meet CAT4, meaning that additional capacity will be needed.

In the longer term, I see every reason to buy the 7E7 in about 2010, to replace any remaining MD82 and the B767.


User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7149 posts, RR: 57
Reply 24, posted (10 years 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 8633 times:

"Bestwestern,

I find it odd that you're speaking this way, considering that without EU money, your country would still be a farmer country.
Europeans, including Italy, were VERY generous with Ireland."


What an interesting comment... Indeed Ireland, and Spain were reciepients of EU investment for the future. Ireland used this money to turn the economy around. Ireland is now one of the strongest economies in Europe. What a smart investment. Ireland and Spain now pay the EU to help other economies to achieve the same success story.

I have no arguement against Governments funding companies (such as Iberia and Aer Lingus) when this money is successfully used to turn around the business. However Alitalia has had many many investments from the Goverment, both directly and indirectly, and has failed to turn around the company, and will fail again.

This AZ funding is unfair to other European companies, such as BA, LH, FR, etc who are attempting to compete in the same marketplace without such funding, and threatens more jobs elsewhere, such as in Volare and Meridiana, who cannot grow and succeed to their potential due to the unfair Subsidisation of AZ.



The world is really getting smaller these days
25 Marcob2 : "Arent the Italians just wonderful... It's amazing how the laws of economics just dont apply down there." Dear BestWestern, since you are making thing
26 Lindy : From my point of view: I think that Alitalia went for 767 and 777 because they have made their calculations and they figured out that they will need e
27 BestWestern : Marcob2 - this is an aviation forum... I was talking about the basket case Italian airline Alitalia, and the Italian governments attempts to keep it a
28 ScottysAir : This is mean for more new Boeing aircraft with the 777 aircraft and it is make for expansion on the long haul flights out of MXP & FCO. I am complain
29 Sarrebal : Bestwestern, AZ funding is unfair to FR? Ahah....that was a good one! Because it was a joke, right?
30 UA744KSFO : BestWestern and Cedarjet, Racism is completely inappropriate when discussing the airline industry! My entire family is Italian and I really don't appr
31 Aeronuts : Interesting discussion, like many kids who wants the new toy's, the call to dump the "old" 767 and get the "new" 7E7 as if it's already a plane availa
32 Post contains images Behramjee : Out of everyones viewpoints...LINDY's is the one that makes most sense Now we all know that AZ is severly short of cash and therefore the very thought
33 MarcoB2 : If AZ is buying airplanes, that means that there's got to be a reason. I don't think the CEO decides to buy whatever and whenever he wants, right? So,
34 Rlwynn : Know what is kind of funny? The only Italian customer I have, Actually pays me in Pizzas. But that is just me being nice to him.
35 MarcoB2 : You know what Rlwynn? I have a stong will to reply to your post with something that would make you hurt as much as you hurted me. But I am Italian, an
36 DIA : UA744KSFO said: "BestWestern and Cedarjet, Racism is completely inappropriate when discussing the airline industry! My entire family is Italian and I
37 Post contains images Gearup : Good post DIA, As a Canadian of Irish birth I am a little disapointed at the Italian bashing thats going on here. Guys the contribution that Italians
38 Rlwynn : Why the hell would that hurt you? I do advertising, the guy has a small pizza and ice place. I do work for him and he pays me in pizzas. Has done so f
39 PANAM_DC10 : Bahramjee I think AZ has options to convert any -200ERs with BOEING to -300ERs...am I right? Yes they have 6 options and IIRC they also have 6 purchas
40 Scotron11 : I think this discussion is about AZ possibly purchasing additional aircraft, folks! Let's keep on the subject. I initially dismissed this post as I do
41 MarcoB2 : Alright, that's it. You think you are funny, but your brain is too small to show you what's inside your country. 1) You spoke about Parmalat? What abo
42 Sarrebal : Rlwynn, I'm extremely racist. But just against stupid people. And they're from all over the world, even from the US. PS: Where do you want me to ship
43 MarcoB2 : Officially 2,500 were the job cuts. However the gov't is trying to do everything to cut 5,000. I don't know if they will, but that's what the gov't wa
44 Post contains images DfwRevolution : I have a stong will to reply to your post with something that would make you hurt as much as you hurted me. But I am Italian, and I will control mysel
45 Rlwynn : Hopefully the Italian government and the airline can see that they are on the ropes big time. I think that realization will be the only thing to save
46 Whitehatter : None of this actually makes any sense without a look at the GECAS leasing arrangements Alitalia has. There may be aircraft coming off lease which will
47 Aeronuts : Scotron11, must be english humor... "As to fleet commonality, how many planes does AZ have, 35? It hardly makes them a "major" carrier! More than like
48 Baw716 : Hi everyone, Just for the record, I am an ex Alitalia manager, who developed a terrific franchise in a major US city and afterward got hit by 9/11 and
49 Alitalia744 : BAW716 you have just earned my respect. Great post about the truth of Alitalia.
50 Baw716 : Alitalia744, Grazie mille. Working at Alitalia was the greatest job I ever had. Yes, it was hard work, and sometimes it drove me crazy. Once I got to
51 Post contains images 777ER : Way to go Boeing and Embraer But I can't see why AZ should be buying new planes when they are trying to aviod going bankrupt.
52 Carpethead : Could it be the fact that long-haul flights are the bread-and-butter and make the most profits; while, intra-European flights are marginal or making l
53 PacificWestern : And since when is Alitalia the only debt ridden and mismanaged airline that is seeking to buy new aircraft? MiltonAir has done it as have others.
54 Alitalia744 : BAW716 - hope all gets well. Alitalia, in my opinion has been and continues to be the best airline. It's shocking to me what some of the people on thi
55 Post contains images 777-500ER : LONG LIVE ALITALIA! FORZA RAGAZZI! Michael SFO
56 Post contains images Alitalia744 : Ciao MichaelSFO! come stai? Alitalia will survive.
57 BuyantUkhaa : Aren't half of those Embraers the same ones that were already on the order list of Alitalia Express? I just looked at the July issue of ATW with the f
58 Boo25 : This seems ludicrous -don't they need to sort out a MASSIVE financial problem first? They have just LOST $400Million in 6 MONTHS because their staff r
59 AirMale : Alitalia will always be around, Mr Berlusconi and his friends will make sure. Bella Italia!!
60 Angelairways : If I had some spare money right now... I'd buy Alitalia shares... they are so cheap and I have a funny feeling they will just about pull through and t
61 BENNETT123 : I think that some people are getting carried away here. Firstly, none of these aircraft will be delivered until 2007. Secondly, they are quite modest
62 TW741 : ok the thread is AZ buying Boeing/Emb airplanes - but there is such a mix of posts in here .... To my mind one thing is important - Italians prefer to
63 Zvezda : I've just added Baw716 to my list of respected users. Great post. I'm disapointed that so many rush to cry "Racist!" over an ethnic sense of humor. I
64 Steman : Dear TW741, many thanks for your nice words about Italians. However what you have written is far from being the truth. The truth is that Italians pref
65 Scotron11 : Aeronut......my error........I meant long-haul...........apologies!
66 Azmd80 : AZ is now facing hard times. In my opinion the anniuncement of new orders could be also linked to a marketing metter. Without any doubt Az will not bu
67 HlywdCatft : I have just suggested deletion for anybody who is posting Anti Italian posts on here... As for Alitalia, yes they are in the hole again, but so are ot
68 Alitalia744 : UA744KSFO - veramente! so true. Alitalia is truly a world-class carrier if people would only try them. To me, it's not about having a flight attendant
69 JAL : How will they pay for them?
70 Matt777 : Although I wasn't born in Italy [my greatgrandfather was from Torino], I enjoy fully every day of my life being in this magnificent country that was b
71 Matt777 : Oh and for the record: Here the statistics of June 2004 Source: AEA.be Nº of Bags Missing per 1 000 pax Air France 13.5 Alitalia 11.7 British Airways
72 UA744KSFO : OK, my last post got deleted because I wrote it in Italian, so I'll translate it. I've flown with Alitalia before and I like them a lot. If we're goin
73 Baw716 : Boo25, I want to address something you stated in your post: "Most EU airlines have faced massive restructuring and made huge sacrifices since Sept 200
74 HlywdCatft : I flew Alitalia about 10 years ago. I thought that they were a great airline. I got really good service and I only flew in coach. The crew was very po
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