L1011Lover From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 971 posts, RR: 15 Posted (8 years 9 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2759 times:
... in its July 1st 1990 timetable TWA advertised its extensive European Route network as follows:
"With our network of over 125 cities in the US and 22 in Europe, TWA connects more of the US to more of Europe than any other airline.
Everyday, TWA offers the most flights across the Atlantic. And you can fly nonstop to Europe from any of TWA´s gateway cities: New York, Newark, Los Angeles, Washington, Boston, Baltimore, Chicago, St. Lois, Philadelphia.
In Europe, TWA gives you more options to continue to other points beyond. We´re the only US airline with a hub in Paris offering you convenient connections to TWA´s most popular destinations.
So when you plan your next trip to Europe, choose the airline that gives you more. Today´s TWA. Find out how good we really are."
According to the timetable TWA offered the following Transatlantic and continuing internal European flights:
TWA also offered service between the following city pairs FRA-TXL, FRA-VIE, CDG-MUC, CDG-STR using other flight numbers than any of the transatlantic flights. TW930, TW822 for instance.
So, can anyone share any information on how Pan Am´s Transatlantic and European network looked like at the time?
I know TWA and Pan Am were always competing on the Transatlantic routes and the number 1 title.
Both carriers still had their LHR rights during the summer of 1990 but were about to sell them to AA and UA soon. TWA was still running its Paris hub, while Pan Am used to have a big hub or focus city in Frankfurt. I think they were about equal in LHR and I would guess they were also about equal across the pond, but if memory serves me right Pan Am was much bigger within Europe, while TWA of course was way bigger within continental US.
Also what was Pan Am´s flight numbering system for its Transatlantic flights? It always seemed to me that Delta adopted the flight numbers when they bought and took over Pan Am´s European rights, is that true?
In July of 1996 around the time when TWA800 occured the airline was still offering the following flights:
BOAC911 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 445 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (8 years 9 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2616 times:
TWA's timetable often were not a reliable source of information. Last minute changes to times & frequencies occured often, and the timetables were out of date even before they became effective.
It may be of interest to you that on the JFK-LIS-BCN route (which operated usually in the winter months in the 1980's w/ L-1011, and was a route they took over from Pan Am in 1975 during a major re-shuffling of Trans-Atlantic operations of both carriers to improve 747 loads) the Tristars were sometimes parked for a night at BCN before they backtracked the following day. This is done very seldomly by U.S. carriers on trans-atlantic operations.
Summer operation was via MAD, and usually with 747 equipment (TW 904/903.
Aa717driver From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 1566 posts, RR: 14 Reply 3, posted (8 years 9 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2564 times:
The JFK-LIS-BCN became a 762 in the mid-90's and went to 757 in the late '90's. Great trip. It paid 17:30 for a three day trip and the relief pilot always got at least one leg.
The JFK-ATH route was abandoned in '97 partly because of the requirement to use a 747 and because of problems with the station. Many pax and non-revs were shaken down by the agents in order to get a seat out. They would offer to let you on a "full" flight if you paid an additional $100-$200. Incidentally, the inspector sent over to investigate was taken out and wined and dined by the station personel and nothing out of the ordinary was found by her...
Unfortunately, there are a lot of stories like that littering TWA's past. TC
BOAC911 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 445 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (8 years 9 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2525 times:
Yes FoxDelta. you are correct. BCN-NCE was served briefly either shortly before or after Olympic Games, but was not profitable and was quickly discontinued. In the 1950's and 1960's Nice was served by TWA and Pan Am as continuation of JFK-LIS-MAD (TW) or JFK-LIS-BCN (PA). Actually Pan Am served Barcelona in the early 1960's on a incredible long routing for today's standards: MIA-SJU-LIS-BCN-NCE-FCO with 707.
Yyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 15999 posts, RR: 59 Reply 6, posted (8 years 9 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2499 times:
The JFK-ATH route was abandoned in '97 partly because of the requirement to use a 747 and because of problems with the station.
Why? The 762ER could handle this route from a range standpoint. What problems incidently?
Many pax and non-revs were shaken down by the agents in order to get a seat out. They would offer to let you on a "full" flight if you paid an additional $100-$200. Incidentally, the inspector sent over to investigate was taken out and wined and dined by the station personel and nothing out of the ordinary was found by her...
Are you serious? This is nothing less than extortion and corruption ona massive scale. Why didnt this make the press? Why weren't dozens of TW employees arrested and charged?
Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
TW741 From Liechtenstein, joined Sep 2004, 478 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (8 years 9 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2506 times:
TWA's timetable often were not a reliable source of information
which is quite right for the transatlantic flights. Very often the routings where combined and flight numbers changed.
VIE for instance was served as JFK-ZRH-VIE, JFK-AMS-VIE, JFK-BRU-VIE and JFK-FRA-VIE seeing steady changing flight numbers.
For a long time we had "direct service with plane change at intermediate stop" meaning Pax had to change to a 727 at FRA or ZRH.
This service was also in place for example to HAM.
SVO was in service for a season - I think it was 1991 but not sure - as a direct service via BRU.
The TXL service - yes this was the remains of the "American Shuttles" into Berlin - was at the end to 1 flight connecting to TW740/741 JFK-FRA-JFK.
Believe it or not - altough having worked for TW at VIE until the last flight left I cant remember all routings and flight numbers we saw. We had 727-100s and later 727-200s as feeders from/to FRA, ZRH and shortly BRU, followed by 1 stop service L10´s via FRA (TW740/741) and AMS (TW814/815). When we got the 767 we where shortly routed via BRU and GVA before getting by July1st 94 the nonstop B767 service into VIE which we kept until shutdown of VIE. For a few flights we also had the 767-300 here in VIE (with the shamrock-green seats of EI inside - uhhhhh). And a few days before we had the last flight we had 2 aircraft in VIE - the regular 767 and a 747 coming in from CDG to pickup equipment...
The list of L1011Lover shows that 1996 was the year of big cuttings in the international network - it was somehow the final beginning of the end of TW as a big player over the atlantic ... (not to discuss C.Icahns games in selling of routes previous to that...)
Dutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 58 Reply 10, posted (8 years 9 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2360 times:
TWA for a short time flew a seasonal Boston-Rome nonstop flight with a 707 on a daily basis, and also had an unusual JFK-BOS-Azores-Lisbon-Madrid flight which operated twice per week with a 707. Does anyone remember TWA's service to Africa.....I think that TWA flew via Athens onto a couple destinations in Africa, Addis Ababa comes to mind (forgive the spelling). Of course, during this time period, TWA also had its round the world 707 service that from SFO to JFK via LAX, HNL, GUM, HKG, BOM, TLV, FCO, PARIS and some flights also stopped at Tapei, Okinawa and Athens. Before closing down, TW served the Gulf for a short time.
If one looks back when comparing TWA to Pan Am on transatlantic services, TWA was traditionally stronger to Paris and southern Europe while PanAm was the leader to Germany,northern and central Europe - both competed into London. As pointed out, in 1975, with both airlines having financial problems and an oil embargo going on, TW and PA got governmental permission to meet and divide up the world - Pan Am dropped routes to Paris, Rome, etc while TWA dropped its pacific/RTW services and routes to Frankfurt and other cities. Over time, both airlines re-instated routes and went head to head out of NYC to most European capitals. And, we all know what happened to TW's LHR routes (to AA) and PA's LHR routes (to UA).
SevenHeavy From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 1127 posts, RR: 10 Reply 15, posted (8 years 9 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1667 times:
I flew the LHR-LAX-LHR service with TWA many times on a B741 in the 80's/90's. As stated the route was very tight for this aircraft when operating westbound. There were often problems getting the required fuel onboard on hot summer days and occasionally they were routed via YWG or somewhere similar. I believe it was also common practice to file flight plans to YWG (or similar!) with LAX as an alternate and then once overhead YWG get "recleared" to LAX once it was established there was sufficient fuel remaining to complete the flight with the required reserves. This was due to the flight planners being unable to find a route where the flight could be operated with sufficient fuel reserves to be within FAA/CAA limits.
Laxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 22247 posts, RR: 51 Reply 16, posted (8 years 9 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1603 times:
Yup LHR-LAX was indeed tight for both the TW and PA B747-100s. Both airlines did try to operate their few B747-200s on the route however odds were still in favor of flying on a -100.
As mentioned by SevenHeavy, TWA did on the occasion operate via YWG, while Pan Am seemed to like YWG and SLC, or if it was a more northerly routing either SEA or SFO. Things got so bad for TW that the airline for a few years embargod any frequent flyer awards being used on the nonstop flights.
TWA maintained pretty much the save schedule for more than 15 years between the cities. TWA761 would depart LHR around noon, while the return TWA760 would depart LAX 5-6pm.
Pan Am varied its schedule a bit season to season, with daily nonstop flights in the summer and onestops via SFO or SEA a few days a week in the winter. The nonstop PA121 departed LHR according to seasons either around 10am, or later in the afternoon around 2pm, while the return from PA120 from LAX operated either around a 12noon departure, or a later 5-6pm departure.
Besides London services, both airlines operated other nonstops to Europe. TWA operated for several summers with B747 and finaly with B763s to Paris 3 or 4 times perweek, while Pan Am for several years in the 80s operated daily or nearly daily B747 nonstops to Frankfurt.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
TWA902fly From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 3053 posts, RR: 4 Reply 17, posted (8 years 9 months 4 days ago) and read 1542 times:
TWA902... thats my name and its been mentioned... i flew on that JULY 1997, that day TW 902 was JFK-BCN-CDG, a 747-100 service. And it wasn't an aircraft replacement, it was in the schedule when we bought the tickets, return was TW 918 or 916, 767-200 service BCN-JFK, and ofcourse back in those days i connected to the flights from ORD 727 ORD-JFK and MD-83 JFK-ORD. It was still a fabulous airline in 1997, i miss them
life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
CV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 18, posted (8 years 9 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1469 times:
TWA in LIS was in late 70's operated with the good old 707 and then upgraded to the L1011 in the winter and 747 in the summer. Interesting to know is the fact that some of you know that in early/mid 80's TWA started to buy pairs of 2nd. hand 747 from some european airlines like BA, Iberia and TAP. TAP both 747 CS-TJA and CS-TJB where registred N301TW and N302TW and normally were common visitors to LIS, I think due to the fact that both used emergency placards both i english and portuguese saved some money. My wife flew N302TW from LIS to JFK in 1987, the flight would arrive very early in the morning from JFK, drop the passengers, fly to MAD or BCN and return at noon time back to JFK. When I flew in 1989 from LIS to JFK with TWA they had already dropped 2 days a week flying from LIS, so you had to pick the first MAD flight with TAP, flight TP700 operated with 727-200, and then get the MAD/JFK TW flight with 747. So we crossed Portugal backwards to cross it again latter!!!!
Latter they started using the 767-200ER and from time to time they used the 767-300. Finnally they closed LIS operations flying the 757-200. The last flight they did, the TWA 757 took-off made a turn and overflew LIS airport and shook his wings for the last time over LIS airport, a very emotional and sad moment for all of us!
Algoz From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 130 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (8 years 9 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 1419 times:
Pan Am did indeed use 747-100 to both LAX and SFO. However, they did also have a number of 747-200 aircraft which were also used, in addition to 747SP which were used in earlier years. On many occasions I recall not getting a seat (staff standby) even though the aircraft left with empty seats. This was due to weight restrictions (Pan Am also carried quite a bit of freight in the hold).
Aa717driver From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 1566 posts, RR: 14 Reply 20, posted (8 years 9 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1333 times:
yyz717--The max comfortable range on the original 762ER's was about 9 hours. We did LGW-STL and with a full load and bad winds, you didn't have much choice of alternates. JFK-ATH was 10 hours plus with a 747 doing M.84. The "new" 767-200ER(like Continental operates) is a true ER aircraft that has a lot longer legs than the old ones.
As to your other question: Why weren't people arrested? It was Greek employees operating in Greece. That type of shakedown goes on all the time in a variety of countries(including rural areas of the U.S.). Hardly breaking news.TC