Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
TW´s 1990 Transatltantic Network Compared To PA´s?  
User currently offlineL1011Lover From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 989 posts, RR: 14
Posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3515 times:

Hello all,

... in its July 1st 1990 timetable TWA advertised its extensive European Route network as follows:

"With our network of over 125 cities in the US and 22 in Europe, TWA connects more of the US to more of Europe than any other airline.
Everyday, TWA offers the most flights across the Atlantic. And you can fly nonstop to Europe from any of TWA´s gateway cities: New York, Newark, Los Angeles, Washington, Boston, Baltimore, Chicago, St. Lois, Philadelphia.
In Europe, TWA gives you more options to continue to other points beyond. We´re the only US airline with a hub in Paris offering you convenient connections to TWA´s most popular destinations.
So when you plan your next trip to Europe, choose the airline that gives you more. Today´s TWA. Find out how good we really are."

According to the timetable TWA offered the following Transatlantic and continuing internal European flights:

days
1234567 TW723 BWI-LGW-FRA
1234567 TW754 BOS-LHR
1234567 TW810 BOS-CDG
1234567 TW770 ORD-LHR
1234567 TW760 LAX-LHR
1-3-5-- TW860 LAX-CDG-FCO (1,3)/TLV (5)
1--4567 TW834 EWR-CDG-CAI (7)/FCO (4,5,6)/TLV (1)
1234567 TW814 JFK-AMS
1-345-7 TW880 JFK-ATH
1234567 TW902 JFK-BCN
1234567 TW768 JFK-BRU
1234567 TW816 JFK-CPH
1234567 TW740 JFK-FRA-IST
1234567 TW900 JFK-LIS
1234567 TW702 JFK-LHR-FRA
1234567 TW708 JFK-LHR
1234567 TW704 JFK-LHR
1234567 TW700 JFK-LHR
1234567 TW904 JFK-MAD
1234567 TW842 JFK-MXP
1234567 TW826 JFK-FBU-ARN
1234567 TW804 JFK-CDG-ZRH
1234567 TW800 JFK-CDG-CAI (1)/TLV (3,4)
1234567 TW840 JFK-FCO
-23-56- TW848 JFK-FCO-CAI (2,5)
---4-67 TW884 JFK-TLV
1234567 TW756 PHL-LHR
1234567 TW720 STL-LGW
1234567 TW818 STL-CDG
1234567 TW894 IAD-CDG-GNV

TWA also offered service between the following city pairs FRA-TXL, FRA-VIE, CDG-MUC, CDG-STR using other flight numbers than any of the transatlantic flights. TW930, TW822 for instance.

So, can anyone share any information on how Pan Am´s Transatlantic and European network looked like at the time?
I know TWA and Pan Am were always competing on the Transatlantic routes and the number 1 title.
Both carriers still had their LHR rights during the summer of 1990 but were about to sell them to AA and UA soon. TWA was still running its Paris hub, while Pan Am used to have a big hub or focus city in Frankfurt. I think they were about equal in LHR and I would guess they were also about equal across the pond, but if memory serves me right Pan Am was much bigger within Europe, while TWA of course was way bigger within continental US.
Any thoughts?
Also what was Pan Am´s flight numbering system for its Transatlantic flights? It always seemed to me that Delta adopted the flight numbers when they bought and took over Pan Am´s European rights, is that true?

In July of 1996 around the time when TWA800 occured the airline was still offering the following flights:

TW810 BOS-CDG
TW880 JFK-ATH
TW902 JFK-BCN
TW888 JFK-CAI-RUH
TW740 JFK-FRA
TW900 JFK-LIS
TW904 JFK-MAD
TW842 JFK-MXP
TW800 JFK-CDG
TW848 JFK-FCO
TW884 JFK-TLV
TW720 STL-LGW
TW818 STL-CDG

Its European network was practically nonexistent and another steep decrease of International Transatlantic flights followed the TWA800 tragedy. FRA and ATH for instance were abandoned in january 1997.

Can anyone think of any other TWA Transatlantic flights between 1990 and 1996? Or any services that were abandoned before the 1990?

Any thoughts, ideas and information highly appreciated.

Best regards,

L1011Lover

20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineDelta777Jet From Germany, joined Jun 2000, 1259 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3393 times:

As far as I know Munich and Berlin were also served in 1990 (either via Paris, Bruxxles or Amsterdam!)!

Athens services ended in May 1997 (not in January 1997)

Pan Am`s transatlantic flights were PA001-199!

When did TWA start it`s Mowscow service? 1991/1192? It just lasted one season (flights very via BRU)!

Regards

Patrick
Berlin, Germany



Fly easyJet
User currently offlineBOAC911 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 452 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3372 times:

TWA's timetable often were not a reliable source of information. Last minute changes to times & frequencies occured often, and the timetables were out of date even before they became effective.

It may be of interest to you that on the JFK-LIS-BCN route (which operated usually in the winter months in the 1980's w/ L-1011, and was a route they took over from Pan Am in 1975 during a major re-shuffling of Trans-Atlantic operations of both carriers to improve 747 loads) the Tristars were sometimes parked for a night at BCN before they backtracked the following day. This is done very seldomly by U.S. carriers on trans-atlantic operations.

Summer operation was via MAD, and usually with 747 equipment (TW 904/903.


User currently offlineAa717driver From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 1566 posts, RR: 13
Reply 3, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3320 times:

The JFK-LIS-BCN became a 762 in the mid-90's and went to 757 in the late '90's. Great trip. It paid 17:30 for a three day trip and the relief pilot always got at least one leg.

The JFK-ATH route was abandoned in '97 partly because of the requirement to use a 747 and because of problems with the station. Many pax and non-revs were shaken down by the agents in order to get a seat out. They would offer to let you on a "full" flight if you paid an additional $100-$200. Incidentally, the inspector sent over to investigate was taken out and wined and dined by the station personel and nothing out of the ordinary was found by her... Insane

Unfortunately, there are a lot of stories like that littering TWA's past. Sad TC



FL450, M.85
User currently offlineFoxDelta From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 126 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3294 times:

Also the BCN run was at times routed JFK-BCN-NCE, I am not too sure about traffic rights between BCN and NCE, but definitely TWA had traffic rights BCN-LIS when the flight was routed this way...

User currently offlineBOAC911 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 452 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3281 times:

Yes FoxDelta. you are correct. BCN-NCE was served briefly either shortly before or after Olympic Games, but was not profitable and was quickly discontinued. In the 1950's and 1960's Nice was served by TWA and Pan Am as continuation of JFK-LIS-MAD (TW) or JFK-LIS-BCN (PA). Actually Pan Am served Barcelona in the early 1960's on a incredible long routing for today's standards: MIA-SJU-LIS-BCN-NCE-FCO with 707.

User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 6, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3255 times:

The JFK-ATH route was abandoned in '97 partly because of the requirement to use a 747 and because of problems with the station.

Why? The 762ER could handle this route from a range standpoint. What problems incidently?

Many pax and non-revs were shaken down by the agents in order to get a seat out. They would offer to let you on a "full" flight if you paid an additional $100-$200. Incidentally, the inspector sent over to investigate was taken out and wined and dined by the station personel and nothing out of the ordinary was found by her...

Are you serious? This is nothing less than extortion and corruption ona massive scale. Why didnt this make the press? Why weren't dozens of TW employees arrested and charged?




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineTW741 From Liechtenstein, joined Sep 2004, 478 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3262 times:

TWA's timetable often were not a reliable source of information

which is quite right for the transatlantic flights. Very often the routings where combined and flight numbers changed.
VIE for instance was served as JFK-ZRH-VIE, JFK-AMS-VIE, JFK-BRU-VIE and JFK-FRA-VIE seeing steady changing flight numbers.
For a long time we had "direct service with plane change at intermediate stop" meaning Pax had to change to a 727 at FRA or ZRH.
This service was also in place for example to HAM.
SVO was in service for a season - I think it was 1991 but not sure - as a direct service via BRU.
The TXL service - yes this was the remains of the "American Shuttles" into Berlin - was at the end to 1 flight connecting to TW740/741 JFK-FRA-JFK.

Believe it or not - altough having worked for TW at VIE until the last flight left I cant remember all routings and flight numbers we saw. We had 727-100s and later 727-200s as feeders from/to FRA, ZRH and shortly BRU, followed by 1 stop service L10´s via FRA (TW740/741) and AMS (TW814/815). When we got the 767 we where shortly routed via BRU and GVA before getting by July1st 94 the nonstop B767 service into VIE which we kept until shutdown of VIE. For a few flights we also had the 767-300 here in VIE (with the shamrock-green seats of EI inside - uhhhhh). And a few days before we had the last flight we had 2 aircraft in VIE - the regular 767 and a 747 coming in from CDG to pickup equipment...

The list of L1011Lover shows that 1996 was the year of big cuttings in the international network - it was somehow the final beginning of the end of TW as a big player over the atlantic ... (not to discuss C.Icahns games in selling of routes previous to that...)

Regards
=TW741=



TWA - we showed you how good we have been!
User currently offlineBOAC911 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 452 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3202 times:

For today's standard's the L-1011 was incredibly loud during take-off. The engines were powerful but loud. It don't understand why Eastern called its Tristars "Whisperliners"

User currently offlineN1120a From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26444 posts, RR: 75
Reply 9, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3150 times:

L-1011s are really quiet and smooth inside, that is why EA called them Whisperliners. It is usually about PAX comfort, not airport noise regs. What about the requirement of a 747 on JFK-ATH?


Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 10, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 3116 times:

TWA for a short time flew a seasonal Boston-Rome nonstop flight with a 707 on a daily basis, and also had an unusual JFK-BOS-Azores-Lisbon-Madrid flight which operated twice per week with a 707. Does anyone remember TWA's service to Africa.....I think that TWA flew via Athens onto a couple destinations in Africa, Addis Ababa comes to mind (forgive the spelling). Of course, during this time period, TWA also had its round the world 707 service that from SFO to JFK via LAX, HNL, GUM, HKG, BOM, TLV, FCO, PARIS and some flights also stopped at Tapei, Okinawa and Athens. Before closing down, TW served the Gulf for a short time.

If one looks back when comparing TWA to Pan Am on transatlantic services, TWA was traditionally stronger to Paris and southern Europe while PanAm was the leader to Germany,northern and central Europe - both competed into London. As pointed out, in 1975, with both airlines having financial problems and an oil embargo going on, TW and PA got governmental permission to meet and divide up the world - Pan Am dropped routes to Paris, Rome, etc while TWA dropped its pacific/RTW services and routes to Frankfurt and other cities. Over time, both airlines re-instated routes and went head to head out of NYC to most European capitals. And, we all know what happened to TW's LHR routes (to AA) and PA's LHR routes (to UA).


User currently offlineDETA737 From Portugal, joined Oct 2000, 612 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3123 times:

Here are all of the Pan Am flights operated in the second week of August of 1990. Not all are scheduled, there are many holiday charters out of Berlin you'll notice.

DTW-LHR 7x 310
IAD-CDG 7x 310
IAD-FRA 7x 747
IAD-LHR 7x 747
JFK-ARN 6x 310
JFK-BRU 7x 310
JFK-BUD 3x 310
JFK-CDG 7x 747
JFK-CDG-GVA 7x 310
JFK-FCO 7x 747
JFK-FRA-BOM 3x 747
JFK-FRA-DEL 4x 747
JFK-FRA-KHI 3x 310
JFK-FRA-NBO 3x 310
JFK-FRA-RUH-KHI 2x 310
JFK-HAM 4x 310
JFK-HEL 4x 310
JFK-LHR 21x 747
JFK-MAD 7x 747
JFK-MUC 6x 310
JFK-MXP 7x 747
JFK-NCE 7x 310
JFK-SVO 6x 747
JFK-TXL 5x 310
JFK-VIE 5x 310
JFK-WAW 5x 310
JFK-ZRH 7x 747
LAX-LHR 4x 747
MIA-CDG 4x 747
MIA-FRA 1x 747
MIA-LHR 7x 747
SEA-LHR 6x 747
SFO-LHR 7x 747

PARIS
CDG-TLV 7x 727

FRANKFURT
FRA-ATH 7x 727
FRA-BOM 3x 747
FRA-BUD-DBV 1x 727
FRA-BUD-KRK 1x 727
FRA-BUD-OTP 1x 727
FRA-DBV 1x 727
FRA-DEL 4x 747
FRA-IST 4x 727
FRA-IST-ESB 3x 727
FRA-KHI 3x 310
FRA-LHR 7x 747, 14x 727
FRA-NBO 3x 310
FRA-NUE 7x 727
FRA-PRG 2x 727
FRA-PRG-BEG 1x 727
FRA-PRG-KRK 1x 727
FRA-PRG-OTP 1x 727
FRA-RUH-KHI 3x 310
FRA-SVO-LED 3x 727
FRA-TXL 20x 310, 89x 727
FRA-WAW 3x 727
FRA-WAW-KRK 1x 727

BERLIN
TXL-AMS 1x 727
TXL-AYT 2x 310
TXL-DBV 1x 727
TXL-DLM 2x 310; 1x 727
TXL-DUS 18x 727
TXL-ESB 3x 727
TXL-FAO 1x 727
TXL-FRA 20x 310; 89x 727
TXL-HAM 51x 727
TXL-ADB 1x 310; 1x 727
TXL-MUC 54x 722
TXL-NUE 21x 727
TXL-PMI 1x 727
TXL-SPU 1x 727
TXL-STR 40x 727
TXL-VCE 1x 727

LONDON (HEATHROW)
LHR-AMS 7x 727
LHR-BRU 6x 310
LHR-OSL 5x 727
LHR-OSL-HEL 2x 727
LHR-FRA 7x 747
LHR-HAM 14x 727
LHR-MUC 7x 727

PARIS
CDG-FRA 3x 747
CDG-GVA 7x 310
CDG-TLV 7x 727

ZURICH
ZRH-STR 7x 727
ZRH-ZAG-BEG 4x 727
ZRH-ZAG-DBV 3x 727




User currently offlineDc863 From Denmark, joined Jun 1999, 1558 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3015 times:

The L10s engines are marginally above today's regarding decibel levels.

User currently offlineAirxLiban From Lebanon, joined Oct 2003, 4511 posts, RR: 53
Reply 13, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2943 times:

does anyone know what equipment TWA operated on the LAX-LHR flights?

AFAIK the LAX-LHR route is pushing the range of the 747-100...

same with Pan Am. i know that a preceding post says "747" but does that mean 741 or 747SP?




PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 14, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2937 times:

Both TWA and PanAm operated 747-100s on the LAX-LHR routes.



User currently offlineSevenHeavy From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 1156 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2423 times:

I flew the LHR-LAX-LHR service with TWA many times on a B741 in the 80's/90's. As stated the route was very tight for this aircraft when operating westbound. There were often problems getting the required fuel onboard on hot summer days and occasionally they were routed via YWG or somewhere similar. I believe it was also common practice to file flight plans to YWG (or similar!) with LAX as an alternate and then once overhead YWG get "recleared" to LAX once it was established there was sufficient fuel remaining to complete the flight with the required reserves. This was due to the flight planners being unable to find a route where the flight could be operated with sufficient fuel reserves to be within FAA/CAA limits.

Regards,

SevenHeavy



So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25148 posts, RR: 46
Reply 16, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2359 times:

Yup LHR-LAX was indeed tight for both the TW and PA B747-100s. Both airlines did try to operate their few B747-200s on the route however odds were still in favor of flying on a -100.

As mentioned by SevenHeavy, TWA did on the occasion operate via YWG, while Pan Am seemed to like YWG and SLC, or if it was a more northerly routing either SEA or SFO. Things got so bad for TW that the airline for a few years embargod any frequent flyer awards being used on the nonstop flights.

TWA maintained pretty much the save schedule for more than 15 years between the cities. TWA761 would depart LHR around noon, while the return TWA760 would depart LAX 5-6pm.
Pan Am varied its schedule a bit season to season, with daily nonstop flights in the summer and onestops via SFO or SEA a few days a week in the winter. The nonstop PA121 departed LHR according to seasons either around 10am, or later in the afternoon around 2pm, while the return from PA120 from LAX operated either around a 12noon departure, or a later 5-6pm departure.

Besides London services, both airlines operated other nonstops to Europe. TWA operated for several summers with B747 and finaly with B763s to Paris 3 or 4 times perweek, while Pan Am for several years in the 80s operated daily or nearly daily B747 nonstops to Frankfurt.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineTWA902fly From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 3125 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2298 times:

TWA902... thats my name and its been mentioned... i flew on that JULY 1997, that day TW 902 was JFK-BCN-CDG, a 747-100 service. And it wasn't an aircraft replacement, it was in the schedule when we bought the tickets, return was TW 918 or 916, 767-200 service BCN-JFK, and ofcourse back in those days i connected to the flights from ORD 727 ORD-JFK and MD-83 JFK-ORD. It was still a fabulous airline in 1997, i miss them

TWA902



life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
User currently offlineCV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2225 times:


Hi!

TWA in LIS was in late 70's operated with the good old 707 and then upgraded to the L1011 in the winter and 747 in the summer. Interesting to know is the fact that some of you know that in early/mid 80's TWA started to buy pairs of 2nd. hand 747 from some european airlines like BA, Iberia and TAP. TAP both 747 CS-TJA and CS-TJB where registred N301TW and N302TW and normally were common visitors to LIS, I think due to the fact that both used emergency placards both i english and portuguese saved some money. My wife flew N302TW from LIS to JFK in 1987, the flight would arrive very early in the morning from JFK, drop the passengers, fly to MAD or BCN and return at noon time back to JFK. When I flew in 1989 from LIS to JFK with TWA they had already dropped 2 days a week flying from LIS, so you had to pick the first MAD flight with TAP, flight TP700 operated with 727-200, and then get the MAD/JFK TW flight with 747. So we crossed Portugal backwards to cross it again latter!!!!
Latter they started using the 767-200ER and from time to time they used the 767-300. Finnally they closed LIS operations flying the 757-200. The last flight they did, the TWA 757 took-off made a turn and overflew LIS airport and shook his wings for the last time over LIS airport, a very emotional and sad moment for all of us!
regards


User currently offlineAlgoz From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 130 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2175 times:

Pan Am did indeed use 747-100 to both LAX and SFO. However, they did also have a number of 747-200 aircraft which were also used, in addition to 747SP which were used in earlier years. On many occasions I recall not getting a seat (staff standby) even though the aircraft left with empty seats. This was due to weight restrictions (Pan Am also carried quite a bit of freight in the hold).

User currently offlineAa717driver From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 1566 posts, RR: 13
Reply 20, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2089 times:

yyz717--The max comfortable range on the original 762ER's was about 9 hours. We did LGW-STL and with a full load and bad winds, you didn't have much choice of alternates. JFK-ATH was 10 hours plus with a 747 doing M.84. The "new" 767-200ER(like Continental operates) is a true ER aircraft that has a lot longer legs than the old ones.

As to your other question: Why weren't people arrested? It was Greek employees operating in Greece. That type of shakedown goes on all the time in a variety of countries(including rural areas of the U.S.). Hardly breaking news.TC



FL450, M.85
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
El Al Security Compared To Other Airlines... posted Thu Aug 10 2006 13:48:21 by B742
CVG Fares Very High Compared To Rest Of Nation posted Thu Jul 27 2006 18:37:32 by DAYflyer
Why Is LHR So Coveted Compared To LGW And STN? posted Fri Jul 21 2006 01:31:40 by Tracks
Economics Of The 767-300ER Compared To The 787-8? posted Tue May 30 2006 15:35:07 by OyKIE
AC's A321 Y Seating Compared To A319/A320s? posted Thu Apr 13 2006 19:25:45 by Samurai 777
Improved Performance Of MEL Compared To SYD posted Sat Jan 21 2006 01:30:10 by Antskip
How Efficient Is Jetblues E190 Compared To A320? posted Sat Jan 14 2006 19:31:10 by OyKIE
A380 Efficiency Compared To Airbus Counterparts posted Fri Aug 19 2005 01:49:43 by PyroGX41487
737-900ER Compared To 707? posted Tue Aug 2 2005 11:25:58 by BOEING787
A350 Compared To 787 And 772ER According To Airbus posted Sun Jul 24 2005 20:31:48 by Sabenapilot