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Libya To Order Boeing Jets  
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24320 posts, RR: 47
Posted (9 years 7 months 1 day ago) and read 7452 times:

Following todays lifting of trade sanctions against Libya, the U.S. State Department has given consent for Boeing to provide Libyan Arab Airlines with 22 new aircraft, as part of a formal order to be made public shortly.




From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
49 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7503 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (9 years 7 months 1 day ago) and read 7374 times:

If this is true, I am very shocked, seeing how their government does not like the US government!


"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineLeviticus From New Zealand, joined Oct 2007, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (9 years 7 months 1 day ago) and read 7347 times:

How about having Libyan Airlines as the launch customer for the 7E7  Laugh out loud

User currently offlineSolnabo From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 847 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (9 years 7 months 23 hours ago) and read 7312 times:

Sounds like cow manure to me  Insane

Micke



Airbus SAS - Love them both
User currently offlineCloudy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (9 years 7 months 23 hours ago) and read 7307 times:

If this is true, I am very shocked, seeing how their government does not like the US government!
-----

Libya has stopped supporting terrorism, has given up all weapons of mass destruction, and is compensating victims of previous terrorist actions (particularily Pan Am 103). They have also satisfied the US and its Allies that they are sincere by showing us a lot of stuff we didn't previously know about(like their nuclear program), and by cooperating with inspections. As a result of these actions, US-Libyan relations have greatly improved. That is why the sanctions were just lifted. Ordering Boeing aircraft is a good sign becuase it shows that Libya does not expect this new situation to change for a very long time - you don't order new aircraft if you don't expect to be able to get parts and support in the future.


User currently offlineBENNETT123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7204 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (9 years 7 months 23 hours ago) and read 7276 times:


At one time your government did not theirs either.

Times change.

If I was very cynical, I might wonder if sanctions were lifted on condition that they bought Boeing.

Welcome to the dirty world of politics.

It would be interesting know what they buy.

My guess is B737NG to replace the F28/B727 and probably B767 to replace the B707/A310.

Given their age, I suspect that most will not fly again.

Fokker F28 1978
Boeing B727 1975 to 1978
Airbus A310 1984
Boeing B707 1967 to 1976

The B707/B727 and F28 are not CAT 3 compliant. Although I saw B727/F28 flying in 2002.

The A310 may be converted to cargo, but is more likely to be sold if they are going all Boeing.


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 912 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (9 years 7 months 23 hours ago) and read 7253 times:

They have also satisfied the US and its Allies that they are sincere by showing us a lot of stuff we didn't previously know about(like their nuclear program), and by cooperating with inspections. As a result of these actions, US-Libyan relations have greatly improved. That is why the sanctions were just lifted

As frustrating as the U.S. sanctions may be to some people, Libya and Vietnam have shown that it really doesn't take much to improve relations with the U.S. If the U.S. can fight a war causing hundreds of thousands of casualties with Vietnam, then 20 years later be selling aircraft and discussing passenger freedom rights, then diplomacy is possible with just about anyone.

Maybe some concessions on both sides are necessary for oh say.... Iran  Wow!

How about having Libyan Airlines as the launch customer for the 7E7

Yeah if you can't get AA to sign on, why not eh ?  Big grin

I think these are likely to be a mix of 767-300ER and 737NG. Or maybe 777s and 737NGs? Does Libya have the traffic for an aircraft larger than the 763ER?

If I was very cynical, I might wonder if sanctions were lifted on condition that they bought Boeing. Welcome to the dirty world of politics.

Yeah... all of 22 aircraft means the U.S. would immediatly lift a export ban  Insane

If Boeing had that much influence, the 100 frame tanker order would have zipped through congress in the Express Lane without anyone blinking an eye. 22 aircraft are modest, but this isn't a mega-order that would give the aerospace lobby a reason to drastically reverse U.S. foreign policy.

[Edited 2004-09-21 03:49:46]

User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13255 posts, RR: 62
Reply 7, posted (9 years 7 months 23 hours ago) and read 7206 times:
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Yeah... all of 22 aircraft means the U.S. would immediatly lift a export ban

No, but an order of 22 airframes from a U.S. company could have been the difference between immediately lifting the ban and waiting six months or so to lift it.

Besides, 22 aircraft from Boeing means that's 22 less aircraft that Airbus can sell.




"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineAfay1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 1293 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (9 years 7 months 23 hours ago) and read 7154 times:

This comes as cold comfort to the PanAm 103 and UTA victims. However, as hard as it is (and if it proves to be true in the long run), I guess it just shows that people, and countries, can change.

User currently offlineBENNETT123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7204 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (9 years 7 months 22 hours ago) and read 7112 times:


Actually what I meant is that Gadaffi got a list of things that he had to do, and that buying Boeing was just one part of it.

Given that there is a gap between the end of B767 orders and the B7E7, then the sale might be fairly important to the White House at present.

Also another order could bridge the gap between the currently ordered B767 and the KC767. Unless they get some orders soon there is going to be a production gap on the B767.

Finally it means putting one over Airbus.

Seems like an order well worth having.


User currently offlineWedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5830 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (9 years 7 months 22 hours ago) and read 7068 times:
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I'm sure Airbus will be crying about arrangement in the near future.

User currently offlineSpacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3517 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (9 years 7 months 22 hours ago) and read 7048 times:

If I was very cynical, I might wonder if sanctions were lifted on condition that they bought Boeing.

We had no choice but to lift sanctions. If you tell a country "you do these things and we'll lift sanctions" and then they do all those things, you can't then go and say "well, we didn't really mean it, we're keeping the sanctions anyway". Because then every country in the world knows you don't keep your word, and no country has any reason for making a deal with you anymore because they know you'll just break it.

You can be as cynical as you want, but honor and honesty actually do play a part in politics too. We may not have wanted to lift sanctions (in fact Bush's foot-dragging suggests we didn't), but the reality is if we ever want sanctions to actually work, we have to honor our agreements to countries that meet our demands under them.

And as much as I personally dislike Bush, I agree with whoever above wrote about how this is an example of how easy we really are to get along with. Countries that don't get along with us don't get along with us because they choose not to get along with us. If we can do business with Vietnam and Libya, not to mention Russia and all of its former republics, China, Japan, Germany, etc., then we can do business with anybody. We have a long history in this country of turning enemies into allies. All we asked Libya to do was to stop supporting terrorism, give up their WMD program and compensate their past victims. And to their credit, they did. End of story. I doubt we'll ever be "friends" with Libya but we can and we have to at least treat them like a normal country now.

I don't think it's so surprising that Libya would want Boeing jets. Libya's wanted to do business with us for a long time; Khadafi's still something of a nutcase but he realizes that being able to deal with us would only help his economy. He's been trying to get those sanctions lifted for years and has now finally managed to do it. Buying Boeing would be a pretty powerful symbol for him, if nothing else; it's showing his people that he can be a benevolent dictator (able to forgive and forget), and showing the rest of the world that he is not bound by politics in making business decisions. Who knows what the real reason is, but I'm not surprised by it, whatever it is.



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4716 posts, RR: 44
Reply 12, posted (9 years 7 months 21 hours ago) and read 6937 times:

Doesnt Libya's national airline already operate a small number of A 320s???

I expect Airbus to get the narrow body order if they already have A 320s and BOEING to get a B 763ER / B 7E7 order...Libya's airline does not need the extra range and capacity offered by a B 777-200ER.

However one mustne doubt that maybe and just maybe if Libya's national airline has leased in A 320s...they may return it back to the lessor and order indeed a full range of B 737NGs + B 763s + B 7E7s all brand new from BOEING.

But since FRANCE also has a big say with Libyan politics with regards to that UTA plane bombing...expect some serious talk for A 320s for narrow body fleet whilst widebody can be BOEING.


User currently offlineSxmarbury33 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 445 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (9 years 7 months 21 hours ago) and read 6917 times:

My question is why dont they pick up some second hand planes from the US market which is being flooded by them?

User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5477 posts, RR: 51
Reply 14, posted (9 years 7 months 20 hours ago) and read 6870 times:

There are no more sanctions.. it was annouced that Bush lifted them today.

I wouldn't be surprised if this is true. Tripoli-JFK-IAH is just around the corner... oil ticket sales.

BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineWarren747sp From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1136 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (9 years 7 months 20 hours ago) and read 6866 times:

Of course, they are going to order Boeing jets.
They had to pay France twice for the UTA victims after Libya had already settled with France many years ago. There must be a bitter taste left somewhere.



747SP
User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 11847 posts, RR: 18
Reply 16, posted (9 years 7 months 19 hours ago) and read 6775 times:
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FORUM MODERATOR

Way to go Boeing Big thumbs up

Does anyone have any idea on how many frames will be ordered per model?


User currently offlineN1120a From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26196 posts, RR: 76
Reply 17, posted (9 years 7 months 18 hours ago) and read 6725 times:

Then again, it takes a US destroyer shooting down an A300 with 290 people on board to get a few new planes into Iran.


Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineTW741 From Liechtenstein, joined Sep 2004, 478 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (9 years 7 months 18 hours ago) and read 6666 times:

Bennet123
The B707/B727 and F28 are not CAT 3 compliant. Although I saw B727/F28 flying in 2002


F28 and B727 are still in regular use like into Malta.


Behramjee
Doesnt Libya's national airline already operate a small number of A 320s???

The LN flights into VIE are shown with A320.
Maybe they still have this aircraft in use, don't know:

View Large View Medium

Photo © Peter Tonna





Also, why shouldn´t they order Boeing Jets? Just because of the past?
I wonder if any discussion or posting with carriers from Arab countries involved really must get a poltical discussion ??

=TW741=

[Edited 2004-09-21 09:22:29]


TWA - we showed you how good we have been!
User currently offlineMrniji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 7 months 16 hours ago) and read 6538 times:

Libya has stopped supporting terrorism, has given up all weapons of mass destruction, and is compensating victims of previous terrorist actions (particularily Pan Am 103).

I am still waiting for a valid proof from the STate Department for all these allegations. .. Maybe Colin Powell can call for another interesting PPT-Presentation in front of the UN and show us prooves, as he did before the Iraq war

This entire move is surprising in my eyes. Wondering why they did not go with Airbus after being - probably unjustified - sanctioned by the US  Confused


User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4716 posts, RR: 44
Reply 20, posted (9 years 7 months 16 hours ago) and read 6498 times:

Instead of JFK...EWR and IAH would be a better option as both cities are huge CO hubs and CO can feed Libyan's flights from these two hubs to TRIP.

For EWR...flights should be either nonstop or via a European city.

For IAH flights...flights should be via LOS...but the B 763ER cant do that however the B 7E7-800/900 can  Big grin

European destinations which are important for oil $$$ into TRIPOLI are AMS-LHR-CDG-FRA-MXP and MAD. LHR and CDG could do with the widebodies whilst the rest can have A 320s/B 737NGs.

Yes it would be a very sensible option for Libyan to approach a struggling US airline like DL to buy some of its used B 738s and B 763ERs...JP MORGAN advised DL to sell all their 21 B 764s...so is there a chance?

Libyan could also think about UALs stored B 777-200ERs in the desert but I dont think so they need the extra capacity of the B 772ER but the range of this aircraft would come in handy on nonstop EWR and IAH routes from TRIP for sure.


User currently offlineMalb777 From Australia, joined Jul 2004, 462 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (9 years 7 months 16 hours ago) and read 6458 times:

What a great world it would be if countries could order what they like from who ever and not have all this" political bulls*&t " trying to work out why and how and was it a condition of sanction lifting etc. Libya wants to buy Boeing then let them get on with it.
In light of this thread , if Iraq does not buy Boeing at the end of the current conflicts will there will be a thread saying Iraq has turned its back on its
savior's ( for want of a better word) and gone with a country that offered no help, and this was political decision. come on guys its a big world out there with people who know what they are doing .
After all I cant see to many people in here with foreign Affairs , business Management or similar positions in there profiles



thank god i was not born a bird. this type of flying is much better
User currently offlineTs-ior From Tunisia, joined Oct 2001, 3410 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (9 years 7 months 14 hours ago) and read 6335 times:


Due to the geographic position of Tripoli and Benghazi, all the key destinations wanted to be served by LN could be reached by a 73NG or an 32S. As far as Boeing is concerned, i think that the B738 could be suitable for the airline, but what to do with the experience they get with the A320s ?! It is the role of the politicians here !!!

For long-hauls, a 764 could be suitable for the Lybian fleet.


User currently offlineBeechNut From Canada, joined Apr 2004, 719 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (9 years 7 months 12 hours ago) and read 6055 times:

I think you guys are leaving out a very good possibility in the order, an aircraft that would be perfect for a country the size of Libya with mostly short/medium routes: the MD95...oops sorry, the B717. Surely this would be a good opportunity to inject a little life into that moribund production line.

It's sort of midway between the F28 and 727. The order could very well include a mix of 737NG (as direct 727 replacements), B717 (as F28 replacements but not necessarily on a 1:1 basis), and 767 as the (gasp!) 707/A310 replacement.

Is Libya REALLY still flying the 707 in pax service??? S**t, might be time to head out there before this order is filled if they do, for a ride. I've flown on Viscounts and DC-8s before, but never the 707 (too bad I missed the VC10 too, maybe I'll have to sub an IL62m instead).

Mike


User currently offlineDayflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (9 years 7 months 11 hours ago) and read 5850 times:

If they are smart, they would pick up the cancelled/deferred DL 777 & 737-800 planes for a song.


One Nation Under God
25 Miamix707 : Sad to see how screwed up my own country is... c'mon lets be more mature here. Just because they didn't order Airbuses is your cuntry screwed up? It h
26 Nyc777 : Any word on type of Boeings that might be ordered? It looks like that they're only starting discussions...I'm sure the Libyans will also be talking to
27 DIA : I can't speak for any of the opinions here. . .but I do have a Libyan-American friend who travels between the U.S. and Libya quite often. Therefore, I
28 BENNETT123 : BeechNut If you want to get a ride on a VC10, why don't you contact the Public Relations Officer at Brize. www.raf.mod.uk/rafbrizenorton These planes
29 Post contains images Aa717driver : spacecadet--Outstanding post! Libya has come around and they should be rewarded for that. Mrnji--You need proof that Libya WAS a terrorist state? What
30 LHMark : Hey, Boeing builds good jets. They may be just what LAA needs to put an effective airline again. THe whys of the order are immeterial. In internationa
31 N328KF : N1120a: It was a cruiser. And the Airbus was in the wrong place at the wrong time. The pilot situation is very tense...shit happens in warfare. People
32 BENNETT123 : N328KF Firstly, the ship was stationed within 5 miles of the centre of airway A59, which the A300 should have followed. Given this point, there was ev
33 Post contains images Jasepl : Hmmm... So that's why the sanctions were lifted!
34 Post contains links Lt-AWACS : From today's Houston Chronicle, an excerpt http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/business/2806523 Continental files for Libya service: Continental
35 LTBEWR : Let us not forget that Lybia is significant oil producer, and probably one of the largest in North Africa. By the substantial reduction in sanctions,
36 Captoveur : "My question is why dont they pick up some second hand planes from the US market which is being flooded by them?" If you have the cash to buy new equi
37 Starlionblue : "My question is why dont they pick up some second hand planes from the US market which is being flooded by them?" If you have the cash to buy new equi
38 Imonti : I think I can grasp this concept. Us lift ban, we buy their planes, we put out our hands for AID and donations and financial help, US says they were n
39 DfwRevolution : , but what to do with the experience they get with the A320s ?! It is the role of the politicians here !!! Eh... pleanty of carriers have swapped the
40 Captoveur : "All true, but buying new planes from Boeing is also very much a political gesture" No shit.. It has been going on for generations and it will go on f
41 Srbmod : I wonder if they'll want those 8 C-130s they ordered back in the 1970s that are parked up @ MGE?
42 BENNETT123 : DfwRevolution What is the point of buying expensive kit, and then giving it to a 19 year old kid. If he can't tell an A300 climbing from an F14 diving
43 Ant72LBA : Congrats to Spacecadet on a well reasoned post that appears to have set the tone for an unusually balanced topic. If Libya is free of sanctions then t
44 Post contains images DfwRevolution : What is the point of buying expensive kit, and then giving it to a 19 year old kid. If he can't tell an A300 climbing from an F14 diving, then either
45 Glideslope : Ant72LBA Wrote: "who are we to argue with their choice?" ROFLMAO!!! Hello! You are posting on A.net. What do you expect?
46 Post contains images Ant72LBA : maybe should have added at the end of that!
47 BENNETT123 : DfwRevolution So unless you are suggesting tranquilisers or disarming the military, you are saying that wherever the US military goes they should take
48 Afay1 : There was a visual confirmation on KAL007, and the pilot of the fighter that shot it down is proud of it to this day. In his, and his government's eye
49 N328KF : BENNETT123: I have read what is available to me to read on the incident. Like I said, shit happens...people make mistakes. The difference is that if i
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