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TWO New RDU Routes That Would Work For DL  
User currently offlineWomack17 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 482 posts, RR: 5
Posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 4278 times:
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I posted this on a another post and decided to re-post as a new topic hoping to get more feedback - If you are going to disagree please do so with the same courtesy I offer in all my disagreeing postings.

I was thinking about new and workable routings that Delta might want to give a look. They could start using some of those aircraft they might be considering for a trip to desert.

"At this very time RDU is seriously under-served with non-stop or even one-stop service to the West Coast. The O&D numbers are there for several destinations with the highest numbers belonging to LAX. The SLC numbers are fairly consistent also. With all of the new DL flights coming into RDU - it certainly looks as though one trip ot two trips to the West Coast would do the trick. Hell at this point I would be glad to Delta them use one of those newly vacant DFW MD-90's on a RDU-SLC-LAX-SLC-RDU routings and they can even pull one of those older 733 for a LAX-RDU-ILM-RDU-LAX routings. That route would be consistently full with all of the movie studios in Wilmington and no direct flight for them into LAX. Just a few thoughts on these would be appreciated. Thanks."

[Edited 2004-09-22 09:23:54]
Edited twice to correct grammatical errors.

[Edited 2004-09-22 09:28:59]


Oh how I miss Midway Airlines. A class act right to then end.
34 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineUadc8contrail From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1782 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 4247 times:

Womack,
after waiting last sunday for 7HRS to get out of RDU, i now can see that RDU is underserverved.......any airline would be crazy not to offer WEST COAST(LAX,LAS)service, and what will it take is for a L.C.C. to start it up and start making cash and then you will see a legacy try to pulll it off as well. rdu is a perfect example of what airlines need to do to look out of the box when it comes to pulling in some cash



bus driver.......move that bus:)
User currently offlineKcrwflyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3791 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4208 times:

well since everyone is obsessed with RDU, i guess ill join the line.  Smile

What happened to America west? Or do their planes just hover over LAS and PHX and then turn back to RDU?


User currently offlinePaul777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 95 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4175 times:

Womack, I would love to see this happen sometime soon. Only thing is: I think it would be better to let some of the financial clouds hanging over Delta improve (if possible ) before we get a West Coast route for a few months and then it gets yanked. Just a thought.

User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22680 posts, RR: 20
Reply 4, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4097 times:

I think that SLC service would certainly be feasible in order to feed West Coast flights, and that RDU could certainly benefit from some more service to points West, but I'm not sure that DL is the one to provide it. On a side note, if US goes under, I'd look for DL to start CLT-RDU very, very quickly.


I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32571 posts, RR: 72
Reply 5, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4097 times:

On a side note, if US goes under, I'd look for DL to start CLT-RDU very, very quickly.

American Eagle would be on that route much quicker than Delta.



a.
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22680 posts, RR: 20
Reply 6, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4089 times:

MAH- I meant to type CLT-SLC. You and I both know that there's no way in hell that DL ever fly CLT-RDU.


I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6747 posts, RR: 18
Reply 7, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4046 times:

Hey, now you all know that I would be happy to see some service to SLC or LAX. I believe that the LAX route is well overdue.

But RDU does have some good destinations, but the West Coast destinations are seriously lacking.

I don't know what DL would do except perhaps a SLC flight in the next few months. I don't think they would do any other West Coast destinations. I just don't see it in the cards. Plus I dont' think they have the space at RDU to do another mainline flight. The ATL flights take up one gate all day. The CVG mainlines take up the other gate most of the day. The remainging 2 gates they have are exclusively RJ. Unless they reschedule some of their CVG flights to allow some space and use a 738.. it's gonna be kinda tough.

But who knows what is in store for RDU from DL.



Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineWomack17 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 482 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4009 times:
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I think it is hysterical that I corrected my initial words twice and still came up with this grammatical masterpiece.

"Hell at this point I would be glad to Delta them use one of those newly vacant DFW MD-90's on a RDU-SLC-LAX-SLC-"

As hard as it is to believe I actually taught high school English for many years. Embarrassment

So being a former English teacher let me see if I can make sense of this mess. I shall endeavor to try it again this way...

Hell, at this point, I would be glad to see Delta use any one of those newly vacant DFW MD-90's on a RDU-SLC-LAX-RDU and then run one of those newly empty 733's on a RDU-LAX-SLC-RDU routing to compliment the other one.

By the way-Uadc8contrail, why didn't you check with HP they have three daily non-stops on A319's one to LAS and two to PHX. How insistent were you with your American agent? With all the destinations AE serves from RDU it shouldn't have been a problem getting you out of RDU into a larger city so that you could make a quick connetion on your way to LAX.



Oh how I miss Midway Airlines. A class act right to then end.
User currently offlineStirling From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 22
Reply 9, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3994 times:

If US disappears tomorrow, the level of nonstops in the CLT-SLC market remain the same....NIL.
US hasn't flown into the state of Utah for some years.
I disagree that DL would automatically "JUMP" on the SLC-CLT route if US goes under. What would this accomplish?

The alert KCRW said it first, HP is already providing a west coast link to PHX and LAS, giving RDU passengers one-stop access to much of the west, in fact much more than what a DL connection in SLC would offer.

I disagree with those that feel if US goes away, CLT will become a ghost-town forever, it's hub status somehow re-appearing at some other airport....
Remember, at one time, Eastern provided the majority of lift out of CLT. Piedmont was born as a Local Service airline, providing access only to the smaller regional cities that were unavailable via Eastern.
It was only after de-regulation, and the demise of Eastern 10 years past, that Piedmont, and eventually US, became the dominant carrier it is now in the region. The point is, CLT will remain as the prime focus of airline operations in the Mid-Atlantic region. (Off-topic, I think if US makes it out of BK, they should rename the whole damn airline PIEDMONT! Go back to basics. The PIEDMONT name is still held in high regard by many in the Southeast US.)

This is not to say RDU will stagnate, hardly, RDU will continue to grow, but within a totally different environmental model.
Look for additional flights to major cities of the West, instead of into a hub of questionable worth.
Western developed the SLC hub as one that was central to much of it's network. The bonus came in the fact that, as a part of a smaller carrier, it worked, and worked well, credited by some as what kept WA out of bankruptcy.
BUT!
In relation to the much larger carrier that DL is, it's a wonder that it's lasted as long as it has. In recent years, DFW and the explosive growth of CVG made much of SLC redundant. (Many cities have seen their DL service switch from SLC to CVG)
The only exclusive routes out of SLC were to some of the smallest cities in the nation with airline service. Only now that DL is preparing to "De-Hub" DFW, is SLC is back in vogue. For now.

The fact remains, the regional passengers available at SLC are being gobbled up by leaner and stronger airlines in WN and AS.
80% of that regional traffic through SLC is destined for one of the 6 major west coast metropolitan centers; Pacific Northwest, Northern Cal, Southern Cal, Phoenix and Las Vegas.
Competition between WN and HP have allowed PHX and LAS to collectively usurp the hub status of SLC. A primary reason is the obvious greater O&D opportunities available.
As the P2P phenomenom continues to spread and grow, look for those smaller cities with hubs and focus operations (such as SLC) to fade away in favor of routes that self-sufficient.......

To make a long story short, RDU is much more likely to get added nonstops to California and the Pacific Northwest, maybe 3 or 4 more additional destinations, but not SLC.



Delete this User
User currently offlineRyefly From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1394 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3964 times:

If US fails and the CLT airport is not longer considered a hub, I doubt any airline would offer service between RDU and GSO to CLT. They are not that far of a drive away from each other and with out one of the airports being a major hub what's the point? If both RDU and CLT offer low fares one day, I highly doubt RDU will see commuters even drive over from CLT as many do today. So RDU could see a reduction in the ammount of passengers, which could result in fewer flights.

I also think if there happens to be a huge chunk of gates available in CLT some time soon, a lot of expansion for airlines will go to CLT where the space will be available instantly instead of dealing with a crowded and dumpy terminal A while waiting for a new terminal C in RDU to open.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22680 posts, RR: 20
Reply 11, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3939 times:

Though the arguments about CLT's facility and somewhat a larger catchmont area are true, I don't think that CLT will grow at the expense of RDU, though I agree that CLT will see copious new service in the absence of US. Just today, there was an article in the Observer about MX considering CLT, for example. The thing to remember about CLT and the triangle, though, is that they are different. The triangle has high-tech and pharmaceutical industries and higher education, while Charlotte is a banking center. That's a big reason why, for example, RDU has more capacity to Britain than CLT but CLT has more capacity to Germany.

The other thing to realize is that CLT is a terrible O&D airport compared to RDU. If I was in Greensboro and needed to drive to one or the other, I would drive to RDU for sure. The imminent opening of a large new part of 485 near the airport will help that, and when all of 485 is done access from the north and east will be easier still, but until the state bites the bullet and makes Billy Graham limited access, getting to and from CLT is going to be a bear.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineStirling From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 22
Reply 12, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3907 times:

Ryefly-

Please read all the replies. There is no point to your argument since Cubsrule already stated he made a typo.....he meant CLT-SLC, not CLT-RDU.
thanks.....

Cubsrule-

Yes, CLT is a lousy O&D airport.
However, it's not the fault of the local people.
For years CLT has suffered through some of the highest base fares in the country.
With LCCs now on all sides, the end result is elementary. Those folks that maybe would have driven 1-3 hours to reach an airport, now bypass CLT for lower fares offered by the likes of airTran and Southwest at a variety of different airports.
It is sad to see US die on the vine, but I am afraid much of it is of their own design.
I can only imagine what it will be like when genuine competition rules the skies of CLT....it will be a totally different ballgame.

[Edited 2004-09-22 23:08:53]

[Edited 2004-09-22 23:11:30]


Delete this User
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22680 posts, RR: 20
Reply 13, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3899 times:

Actually, I could see both RDU-SLC and CLT-SLC working, but my argument was that without US, DL would start CLT-SLC pretty quickly as they are #2 to US in CLT now (if that means anything).


I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineLambertMan From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2070 posts, RR: 36
Reply 14, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3891 times:

Hell, at this point, I would be glad to see Delta use any one of those newly vacant DFW MD-90's on a RDU-SLC-LAX-RDU and then run one of those newly empty 733's on a RDU-LAX-SLC-RDU routing to compliment the other one.

OOhh just thinking of the lift performance those things have, it feels like your in a rocket ship. IMO, Scrap 3 CR7's in favor of one MD90.....or not. Big grin

LAX will come, the demand cannot go overlooked forever. Maybe HP has had enough of competing w/ the other majors on extremely lucrative o/d routes, and will try changing their focus to routes with less competition and mediocre o/d. In that light RDU could be seen as a lucrative market for HP from LAX...

But I'm rambling, AA will probably be the first to try it w/ a 738.

Patience is a virtue...



User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22680 posts, RR: 20
Reply 15, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3871 times:

Yes, CLT is a lousy O&D airport.
However, it's not the fault of the local people.


I meant physically (in terms of location), not farewise. The Charlotte area has a larger and slightly more prosperous population than the Triangle but yet has markedly less O&D, especially on routes like BWI and MCO where RDU is well served by LCCs. I have no doubt that a larger LCC presence at CLT would increase local traffic.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineFlyIGuy From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1073 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3774 times:

Charlotte would be a great place for Indy Air to new city.....OH yeah they are on October 1st.


Just My 2 Cents
FlyIGuy




The opinions I post are of mine and mine alone, not of the airline I work for.
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22680 posts, RR: 20
Reply 17, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3746 times:

FlyI- Do you know of any DH plans for CLT-MCO or CLT-TPA? Tangling with US seems easier than tangling with DL.


I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineRDUDDJI From Lesotho, joined Jun 2004, 1447 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3719 times:

As I've mentioned in most of the many other RDU threads, the reason you won't see service to the WC anytime soon is due to gate space issues, not demand. The airlines in the best position (which are very few) to serve the West don't have gates available for NB's. You can throw in more RJ service to places like IND (ala NW), but most airlines ain't got the space right now for another NB.

IA:
It's possible for IA to add more routes from FL with CRJ's. I think one of IA's startup problems is that they have too MANY airplanes (specifically CRJ's). You can't just let them sit, so you have to fly them somewhere. I see in their upcoming schedules they are pulling some flights off of their hourly markets. IAD/PCT/ZDC/ZNY have proved to be inept at handling the increased IAD traffic (they were having issues before IA even started up). That would lead me to believe that IA will look elsewhere to better utilize the CRJ. As everyone knows any flight to MCO is gonna have lotsa peeps. DL flys 777's 764's there from ATL. I'm sure they can fill those flights up to GSO, HSV, CAE, CHS and wherever else. TPA should be great around the weekends, don't know about weekdays?




Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6747 posts, RR: 18
Reply 19, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3677 times:

Well, as of earlier this year when I emailed HP, they were not interested in starting a RDU-LAX route.. and they were actually kinda snobby about it also.

But I do believe that if AA starts a RDU-LAX, either WN, HP, or B6 will start the route also (competition). But overall, this is just a wait game.

The other WC routes that were served from RDU (SJC, SAN) do not have nearly the passenger levels that LAX, Bay area, SEA have..

just have to wait and see...

on a side note, I can't wait to see some 738 on DL and AA show up. Seeing those MD80s are getting pretty routine..

due to gate space issues, not demand

Here! Here.. There are 2 quick solutions for some quick gate space availability..

1. Convince US to operate out of 4 gates instead of 5. 1 gate (A20) is only utilized 2 times a day for prop service. It's at a location where a 738/320 could utilize. Or (and I REALLY hate to say this), play the waiting game.
2. Convince HP to move to Terminal C and share an AA gate for it's 3 daily flights. There should be no problem with only 3 flights. Use HP gate (A14) for a new airline. Move DH jetway (A10 & A12) so that it swings more so that gate A12 can be used for larger aircraft.. right now, the space between A10 & A9 is large enough to fit a 757.



Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineTOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3286 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3657 times:

Y'all are forgetting one big piece of the puzzle. Yield. RDU, LAX, and SLC all have LCC competition to keep the fares down. The legacy carriers are interested in placing their aircraft in new HIGH-yield markets, not low yield. Trust me, WN looks at all the numbers from RDU, and looks to see how many people are flying to those markets. The numbers obviously are not that high, or WN would place a 737 on a daily nonstop to test the market. DL won't be interested in a market like RDU-SLC, because WN will control the airfare in the market, offering a max fare of $299/OW. DL needs the potential for higher yields for the market to be attractive.

User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6747 posts, RR: 18
Reply 21, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3648 times:

That would be the formula for most places. DL just added TPA to RDU, which is a WN hold, which would do against the yield statement. So I don't think that it's just an issue of WN holding down the yield. I think that these routes will come.

When DL moves to Terminal C after the renovation, some interesting things may develop. Should be interesting to see who else moves to the new Terminal. I think Terminal 2 will consist of AA, DL, CO, NW, HP, DH (and the new international carriers)... UA will probably move back to Terminal 1 with WN, FL, US, AC (and probably F9 & B6)



Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineDayflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3646 times:

Ryefly-

Please read all the replies. There is no point to your argument since Cubsrule already stated he made a typo.....he meant CLT-SLC, not CLT-RDU.
thanks.....

Cubsrule-

"Yes, CLT is a lousy O&D airport.
However, it's not the fault of the local people.
For years CLT has suffered through some of the highest base fares in the country.
With LCCs now on all sides, the end result is elementary. Those folks that maybe would have driven 1-3 hours to reach an airport, now bypass CLT for lower fares offered by the likes of airTran and Southwest at a variety of different airports.
It is sad to see US die on the vine, but I am afraid much of it is of their own design.
I can only imagine what it will be like when genuine competition rules the skies of CLT....it will be a totally different ballgame."

Sounds like the same affliction CVG had for many years until DL got tired of everybody driving to DAY for cheaper fares. They recently reduced fares from CVG by 60% because everyone got tired of paying those outlandish fares.

RDU will not go to Southwest as easily as you think. They have Nashville. I would bet that Airtran or Jetblue would jump all over RDU as a focus city.




One Nation Under God
User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6747 posts, RR: 18
Reply 23, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3634 times:

RDU will not go to Southwest as easily as you think. They have Nashville. I would bet that Airtran or Jetblue would jump all over RDU as a focus city.

D you mean CLT instead of RDU? I could see CLT as a HP focus city. I doubt you will see it as an AirTran city. It is too close to ATL for that. That would be like US PIT/PHL scenerio. CLT would provide absolutely NO strategic advantage for AirTran. However, it would provide a great locale for HP.

I advantage I see for CLT as a B6 focus city is the amount of gate space.




Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineTWA902fly From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 3121 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3647 times:

so offense to any of you but.... i dont really see a point in SLC-RDU. LAX-RDU yes, because it would make it a nonstop flight, and Midway did that very well before they went down, i remember SJC and EGE flights from RDU. Anyways - pretty much anywhere you can fly from SLC you can get through other hubs in a lot of airlines' networks. So SLC would be an addition of capacity between RDU and the west, lets look at the main west coast connections from RDU... (guessing) the biggest cities

YVR
UA via ORD
UA via DEN
NW via DTW
AC via YYZ
AA via ORD
AA via DFW
HP via PHX
CO via IAH

so what exactly would DL add through SLC?

PDX

UA via DEN
UA via ORD
CO via IAH
DL via ATL
DL via CVG
NW via DTW
AA via DFW
AA via ORD

and so on... seeing as DL already has ATL and CVG...


SFO

UA via ORD
UA via IAD
UA via DEN
AA via DFW
AA via ORD
CO via EWR
CO via IAH
DL via CVG
DL via ATL
NW via DTW


SJC
OAK
LAX
SAN

anyways i am sure you get the point... Delta wouldn't be adding much besides capacity, plus i think any mountain states-RDU market has already been taken by UA and partly by HP, any smaller destinations that UA flies to from DEN can be flown to from RDU, through DEN, so as far as i see it DL through SLC wouldn't add much except for 1-stop service to say the state of Idaho. everywhere else DL already has covered through CVG and ATL.


I think the real expansion from RDU could be nonstop flights to the west coast... as you see we're getting closer and closer with DEN and PHX.

However i do not know how underserved RDU is, so if there is space for a daily or twice daily flight from SLC to RDU to add more options for west coast travellers, i will not argue.

TWA902



life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
25 ERJ170 : Okay.. just for a bit of info.. everywhere that has nonstops can also get to the same location by connections. That's not the point. The point is does
26 TOLtommy : Sorry, ERJ170, if the yields were there, so would an airplane. If there was enough high yield traffic paying to connect, the flight would be added. Th
27 ERJ170 : Well, time will tell. Yields? I don't know... demand? About 600 daily/pax to LAX area.. About 500 daily to Bay area.. about 300 daily to SEA area... I
28 Stirling : While this discussion has focused on RDU, these same arguments can easily be made for many markets in this country. In the hub and spoke world, those
29 ERJ170 : To answer the question... R/T between RDU and LAX is $322. R/T between CLT and LAX is $471. Though RDU does get some traffic from CLT, it is not that
30 RogerThat : So being a former English teacher let me see if I can make sense of this mess. I shall endeavor to try it again this way... Hell, at this point, I wo
31 Cltguy : That's a big reason why, for example, RDU has more capacity to Britain than CLT but CLT has more capacity to Germany. The daily US A330 CLT-LGW seats
32 Post contains images FlyPIJets : Hey guys: Thought I would put in my two cents on RDU - west coast. I too expect that at some point, some one will try RDU - LAX (again). But, in tryin
33 Cubsrule : "There are no plans currently to make any improvements to Billy Graham. However there has been a plan on the books for over 10 years now to make a new
34 Post contains links ERJ170 : Interesting new article from the Triangle BizJournal.. to summarize, RDU is asking US for 2 of their 5 gates and their maintenance facility.. with the
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