WearyBizTrvlr From Netherlands, joined May 2004, 58 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (8 years 8 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 4149 times:
Based on the links supplied above, the story is as follows: Swiss needs more capital to survive, which means it'll go to its existing shareholders with a rights issue. Think of a it as a secondary IPO, where every existing shareholder can buy more new Swiss shares to maintain his stake, or decline to buy and see his original stake diluted. Merz is saying the Swiss government would participate, estimating the cost at CHF 60m, which is based on an estimated total capital injection of CHF 300m and prorated by the 20% that the federal Swiss government owns of Swiss (the airline). So it's a farewell gift from the Swiss government to the new shareholder.
The EUR 194m the original poster mentioned is the size of the capital injection, not the price tag for the 20% of Swiss shares. Shares now trade at CHR 7.85, with 52,670,405 shares outstanding. That values the 20% at around CHF 82.7m. Subtract the 60m above, and the Swiss government would only net CHF 22.7m from the sale.
JoFMO From Germany, joined Jul 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (8 years 8 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 4085 times:
Thank you for your explanation. The NZZ has an good article and now I see a little bit clearer.
But the shocking think is that Swiss's main owner the state said that they are ready to sell them and even will give them a farewell present! The capital insection was the main point LH madein the past. That underlines that the givernment is really willing give them away.
Lets wait if LH react to the offer.
Andreas From Germany, joined Oct 2001, 6104 posts, RR: 34 Reply 5, posted (8 years 8 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3651 times:
JoFMO: Please keep in mind that any acquiror of Swiss does have a lot of work to do and a lot of money to invest to turn this company around. Ergo the current shareholders can't exactly expect to make money with it...it's rather taking away debt and future expenses.
Actually I don't see any buyer but LH, but I said that a year ago, too, and that the Oneworld option was a no-go from the very beginning...BA just thought there's a nice way to get some Switzerland-England slots for (nearly) free. Nice try!
Ok, maybe that'll bring them back to target Swiss, too, but for all those who'll scream blue murder when Swiss will become partly German: Keep in mind that BA will close down much more of Swiss operations than LH, because they have no need for it!
There's 3 options for Swiss as of now:
1. Sell it to whoever is willing to take it...candidates are rare!
2. Make it a second AZ, a disaster keeping on happening for decades!
CV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 6, posted (8 years 8 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3580 times:
Knowing well the swiss people and getting their feedback about SWISS issue I still don't believe SWISS will be sold to LH. There's a lot of ideas and a lot of bad publicity behind this deal and my feeling is that some "powers" are trying to come up with this so they can receive SWISS almost free of charge. I don't believe that and I still believe that SWISS have "2 legs" to walk nicely from this situation, and the results prove it. Now I know that if someone anticipates that buy the buyers will be very happy, but in the oposite way if SWISS waits to show to the media the good results they expect to have from 2004 operations I'm positive people will looks to this outstanding airline with different eyes.
I really don't like the idea of seeing SWISS losing his identity to LH!!!!
Jamesvf84 From Switzerland, joined Sep 2003, 129 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (8 years 8 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3515 times:
I agree with you CV990
I do not think that the Swiss taxpayers will see a kind eye in selling "their" airline to LH! Especially since the investment was considerable from the start.
I am wondering if the Government is not playing cat and mouse with the board of directors or trying to light a fire under them. For the moment the board of directors seem to be doing an "bad to adequate" job, but it gets worse when they award themselves bonuses for the good results at the end of the year!
As for BA, I would prefer Swiss to be sold to them as LH would drastically reduce traffic out of ZRH! Now that the airport is supposed to be the hub for Swiss this would also mean a drastic reduction in aircraft and crews!
CV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (8 years 8 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3494 times:
You got an excelent point when you reveal the issue about traffic at ZRH. Who is infact struggling ZRH? Is Germany!!! Why they are doing that? because they have an eye in SWISS and they know if swiss people give up they will come have "The Savior" to clear out all those problems in ZRH and with SWISS and then what's the end? ZRH will be a hub SMALLER than LIS!!!! I understand perfectly that this is a political matter, not a civil aviation matter. Those of us that know " a little on this" see the "real picture"!
Regards and good point!!!
Jamesvf84 From Switzerland, joined Sep 2003, 129 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (8 years 8 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3478 times:
Thanks for the comments, well I know for starters that the landings and takeoffs present some political issue, and due to German political pressure the planes now land as of 6 in the morning from the Swiss side! (I can't remember the exact debate, I am sure other Swiss A.netters have better info) So the habitants of Glattbrugg and Kloten are not too pleased.
It was the only option as the Germans would have restricted their airspace and then that would have been mayhem for ZRH. Basically the Swiss government gave into the German wishes and did not bother about the Swiss people! Shame but it allows ZRH to be more flexible with the landings and take offs!
I just keep my fingers crossed that somehow Swiss will manage to pull through and thrive....the years will tell!
Andreas From Germany, joined Oct 2001, 6104 posts, RR: 34 Reply 12, posted (8 years 8 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3441 times:
James: As for BA, I would prefer Swiss to be sold to them as LH would drastically reduce traffic out of ZRH! Now that the airport is supposed to be the hub for Swiss this would also mean a drastic reduction in aircraft and crews!
Please elaborate, since this statement is completely illogical!
The discussion about take-off and landing times has nothing to do with LH-Swiss. As you probably don't know LH was fully privatized years ago, German government has no say anymore and discussions about insurance problems indicate clearly that there is no link between LH and the German government.
btw: If I were consultant to LH I would raise several questions about acquiring Swiss...stand aside to let it go belly-up seems to be a better solution, though the race for some interesting slots may then cost some money.
Fact is: Politics and some completely moronous patriotism should have no say in business, aviation is business, it's all about money and there is a probability that LH, should they acquire it, would liquidate Swiss if it doesn't pay out.
Unique From Switzerland, joined Mar 2003, 1703 posts, RR: 40 Reply 13, posted (8 years 8 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3409 times:
Politics and some completely moronous patriotism should have no say in business
Andreas, I basically agree! Politicians definitely shouldn't be involving themselves in airport operations as they've no clue. The patriotism, however, can also called economical necessity! Swiss economics need a lot of connections to the rest of the world. Without LX, that's difficult to achieve unless there's a coequal successor.
Andreas From Germany, joined Oct 2001, 6104 posts, RR: 34 Reply 14, posted (8 years 8 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3369 times:
Correct, Switzerland definitely needs to be connected, but then I wonder why Swiss and, before that, Swissair, didn't work out. (Of course I know why it didn't work out, disastrous management performance comes to mind). Still, it doesn't work, and quite a few business travellers prefer to fly AF, BA, LH to get to ZRH.
The patriotism you mentioned is imho not the correct wording...it's, as you correctly said, economic necessity...if something is necessary, people are willing to pay for it, and it'll work. The sort of patriotism I had in mind is that unpleasant one that yells paroles and does NOT look at economics, throwing money out of the window just to be "patriotic". (good example right now: AZ)
Trust me, I know what I'm talking about (being German). LH was in a similar situation at the beginning of the 90ies, and many other institutions still are, sadly.
Jamesvf84 From Switzerland, joined Sep 2003, 129 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (8 years 8 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3310 times:
My wording may have been too narrow minded.
"As for BA, I would prefer Swiss to be sold to them as LH would drastically reduce traffic out of ZRH! Now that the airport is supposed to be the hub for Swiss this would also mean a drastic reduction in aircraft and crews!"
What I meant to say was; should LH acquire Swiss then why have Swiss flights out of ZRH when Stuttgart and Munich, big airports, are in such close proximity and can handle the extra traffic and keep their airports busy.
Should LH decide to acquire Swiss then it would be expected that the Swiss fleet and staff would be reduced.
I did not know about LH being privatized a few years ago. But then here is my question? Seeing as the German LH has no ties to the political arena then why all the fuss by the German government regarding the airspace around ZRH. They have nothing to gain....or do they?
As for the fact you mentioned that "Fact is: Politics and some completely moronic patriotism should have no say in business, aviation is business, it's all about money and there is a probability that LH, should they acquire it, would liquidate Swiss if it doesn't pay out." I would have a few comments regarding this.
First, in my opinion it is ALL about politics nowadays....especially when it concerns flag carriers! Unfortunately patriotism does play a role as Unique pointed out
Second: aviation is business, correct but how do you answer for the Boeing subsidies and the Airbus backing by governments?
As for the liquidation I could not agree more, common sense really.
I do not want to stray too far from the thread it was just I deemed necessary to answer your comments, thanks
Andreas From Germany, joined Oct 2001, 6104 posts, RR: 34 Reply 17, posted (8 years 8 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3267 times:
ok, a lot of points, i'll stick to a few main ones:
Seeing as the German LH has no ties to the political arena then why all the fuss by the German government regarding the airspace around ZRH. They have nothing to gain....or do they?
Actually I have no idea, but even if there were ties between gov. and LH I couldn't see the point why this would favor LH.
As for BA NOT reducing Swiss as much as LH, read my comment above (my 1st post): Actually I'd suspect it would be the other way round since I don't really see what BA could do with Swiss except feeding feeding feeding and of course domestic routes.
Politics: Yes I fully agree, now it was me that was hard to understand, sorry! What I mean is. Let politics out of it and you'll be able to reach a decision that is founded, politics included, and you have a mess that costs millions and billions of cash leading exactly nowhere.
And again, the sort of patriotism Unique mentioned is absolutely ok, because it is the "economical" thing to do, but to fork out cash to keep a (flag-carrying) basket-case alive is nonsense.
Andreas From Germany, joined Oct 2001, 6104 posts, RR: 34 Reply 23, posted (8 years 8 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3123 times:
Actually the latter comment is aimed at certain verbal practices on the non-av Forum though occasionally these people come over here, especially on A vs. B or other threads that include certain America vs. Europe aspects...ahem
Jamesvf84 From Switzerland, joined Sep 2003, 129 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (8 years 8 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3062 times:
Andreas or anyone else
Getting back to this thread, if LH bought Swiss (this is a hyperthetically speaking, of course ), and with the current status of UA, would not the other members of Star Alliance have something to say about this as LH would have to invest in this project?
As I am not sure how this works, if Swiss does come under LH's wing would they become automatically part of Star Alliance?
[Edited 2004-09-23 15:11:15]
25 JoFMO: @Jamesvf84: I wouldn't say automatically. But it depends a lot how this buy-out would look like. As I see it Swiss would keep its brand and its airlin
26 Andreas: Interesting question! Not automatically I guess, at least in the case of a minority shareholding. In the case of LH buying 50% plus golden vote...not
27 CV990: Hi! I've been following the debate between a german enthusiast and a swiss enthusiast. Now it's time for an "outsider" from southern Europe to give s
28 Beaucaire: I mentioned in the thread about Swiss not joining Oneworld,that they should try to team up with Emirates and Malaysian-it would be a small but quality
29 Andreas: Beaucaire: Why does Emirates need a European feeder? Basically all European carrier do fly to Dubai, which is a very profitable route given the increa
30 Beaucaire: Andreas there are about 50-60 mid-size european airports without direct flights into Dubai- so passengers from those platforms will have to fly either
31 Andreas: Of course that does make sense, only: most other carriers do this as well, in Germany you get a train ticket to FRA at extremely low cost if you purch
32 JoFMO: Malaisia might need a European partner but Swiss is too small for them. They need an global alliance with a strong European partner. And for Swiss Mal
33 Rafabozzolla: Here is a thought, Why don´t merge SWISS and Alitalia, maybe even linking them up with USair and Varig?
34 Swissa330: Atão pa? Isto agora ta em Português?? You will never be able to join Alitalia and Swiss... It's kinda like merging Mercedes and Fiat... (I'm not imp
35 Jamesvf84: Interesting comments about EK, I agree with Swissa330 and think it is safe to say that given the surrent state of Swiss, a merger with AZ is out of th
36 CV990: Hi guys! Jamesvf84 - Good to know that you like the airline and you-re not swiss, it's like me. I notice that you live in Lausanne... I have great me
37 RJ100: Swiss has just announced that they will get a CHF325 million credit from the banks! RJ100, who is flying on Swiss tomorrow
38 Swissa330: @CV990 Well, after 18 Years in Portugal, I should be able to speak it I was practically born there, but now I live in ZRH...
39 CV990: Hi Swissa330! Wise man, wise man!!!! Good to know that! Anytime you come back let me know ( my e-mail is on my prophile, just drop a line before you