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3-way Battle For China. AA, DL, And CO  
User currently offlinePilotcoex From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (10 years 3 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 5974 times:

Article on USAToday(money section, 09/23) describes the ongoing battle for China flights. AA, DL, and CO seem to be the front runners to service China from ORD, ATL, and EWR (respectably). Who will win? Who should win? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there is direct service between the big apple and Shanghai or Beijing. Advantage, Continental.

47 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJoFMO From Germany, joined Jul 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (10 years 3 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5908 times:

CO should win. ORD already has service to PEK and PVG and ATL as a little out of the way. I wonder why AA hasn't tried to DFW.

But we should not forget number 4 in this battle. Hawaiian has applied for HNL-PVG.


User currently offlineTokyoNarita From Palau, joined Aug 2003, 570 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (10 years 3 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 5860 times:

I wonder what makes delta think ATL-PEK is better than JFK-PEK. ATL is a mega hub so it may do well but one would think JFK-PEK is more lucrative.

Just out of curiosity here are some distances from Great Circle Mapper.

ATL- PEK 7185 mi
ATL- NRT 6850 mi
JFK - PEK 6838 mi

ATL-PEK would add 335 miles to the current ATL-NRT.
Interesting.

TokyoNarita.


User currently offlineOrd From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 1390 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (10 years 3 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 5846 times:

"I wonder what makes delta think ATL-PEK is better than JFK-PEK."

The connection opportunities. An ATL flight would offer one-connection service to the entire Southeast and a whole bunch of other cities.


User currently offlineBartond From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 791 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (10 years 3 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 5845 times:

Agreed JoFMO. It seems to me like AA could tap into a possibly great route with a DFW-PEK or DFW-PVG route. They wouldn't be battling head to head with UA like they would in Chicago, even though that market is much larger than DFW. 60% of traffic that runs through DFW is connecting, so I'd imagine that people all over Texas and the south/southeast portions of the US could connect one-stop through DFW to China. Seems like a no-brainer to me but maybe ORD is AA's international focus hub at this point.

User currently offlineAa767400 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 2401 posts, RR: 27
Reply 5, posted (10 years 3 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 5846 times:

Being biased of course, but I think that AA should finally get their hands on more than just Narita. CO, has been getting many routes. Don't get me wrong, I love CO. They already fly HKG, too. And you are right, they should go for DFW-PEK,PVG. AA, can't do JFK-PVG,PEK, because of lack of feed at JFK. I know AA, did a test run on a 777, DFW-HKG. I wonder if DFW-PVG,PEK, would work, without payload restrictions?


"The low fares airline."
User currently offlineTokyoNarita From Palau, joined Aug 2003, 570 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (10 years 3 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 5813 times:

The connection opportunities. An ATL flight would offer one-connection service to the entire Southeast and a whole bunch of other cities

I would tend to think the O&D both business and leisure feed from JFK..New York being the biggest financial district of the world..and also not to mention one of the biggest Asian population is the United States..far exceed the demand for the Southeast U.S. for China service. It would be too much to ignore. It wouldn't be convenient to back track south to ATL from the Northeast to go to China..what a waste of time that would be.

This is why CO would do well doing EWR-PEK..the business travellers would be there and also the connection feed is already there. I think NY is way overdue for China service by an American carrier.

TokyoNarita.


[Edited 2004-09-23 16:14:18]

User currently offlineLUV4JFK From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 462 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (10 years 3 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 5797 times:

Well, if it's a battle for who doesn't have flights to China, Delta may win this one. Chicago already has flights to China with United and Air China flies from JFK. Atlanta has no service to China so I feel they are the most likely candidate to get the green light. If American were to put the flights through DFW, I think they might have a fighting chance for the rights.

LUV4JFK
 Big thumbs up



John F. Kennedy International Airport: Where America Greets The World.
User currently offlinePilotcoex From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (10 years 3 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5675 times:

I think Delta is better off offering the service from JFK. I think Mr. Mineta would like direct service from the NY area to China.

User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4977 posts, RR: 25
Reply 9, posted (10 years 3 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5659 times:
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A few years ago when extra flights came up for grabs, DL did apply to offer ATL-JFK-PEK-PVG service in addition to CVG-PEK/PVG service. From JFK, they stood a pretty good chance and did carry out aggressive lobbying efforts but alas, the route/frequency was awarded to UPS. That was when DL was also operating JFK-NRT. Now, their only transpac route is ATL-NRT so I think they would rather consolidate them at ATL first...

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33289 posts, RR: 71
Reply 10, posted (10 years 3 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5653 times:

Despite UA already starting ORD-PVG, I really think AA will win for the 2005 slot. They are in the best financial state out of all the carriers, have the most resources available to fly the service and open up a new station. Also, AA is not competing with DL. Delta asked for slots in 2006. AA in 2005.


a.
User currently offlineN830MH From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (10 years 3 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5641 times:

It is depending on Chinese government on their both airlines with CO & DL service to PEK & PVG. It is already service on UA service to CAN with via NRT.

User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 12, posted (10 years 3 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5607 times:

I think a competitive market would best be served if CO would win EWR-PVG.

User currently offlineJoFMO From Germany, joined Jul 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (10 years 3 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5602 times:

What's about UA's request for flights to CAN? Do they have to compete with AA,DL,CO and HA or is it a separate question because they are already an designated USA-China carrier?

User currently offlineOrd From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 1390 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (10 years 3 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5595 times:

"Also, AA is not competing with DL. Delta asked for slots in 2006. AA in 2005."

As MAH4546 mentions, this is the key point. Both AA and DL can get what they want since two new carriers can be granted access in the next two years.


User currently offlineMlsrar From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 1417 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (10 years 3 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5556 times:

With what equipment does DL plan on operating these routes with?

Are they going to dedicate their small handful of T7s to pacific services exclusively?

At least AA has the capacity and the equipment on hand.




I mean, for the right price I’ll fight a lion. - Mike Tyson
User currently offlineN830MH From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (10 years 3 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5558 times:

DL is planning for service to PEK on the 777s aircraft and if DL is receiving with any chance on their new 777 aircraft.

User currently offlineDayflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (10 years 3 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5524 times:

I hope DL get's it. They need it and they need somewhere to send all those 777 they were cancelling orders for. If they get the business, they can still keep the orders and have the eqiopment in time to commence service.


One Nation Under God
User currently offlineTokyoNarita From Palau, joined Aug 2003, 570 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (10 years 3 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5524 times:

Are they going to dedicate their small handful of T7s to pacific services exclusively?

Not necessary dedicate them all..kind of a longshot but maybe able to keep ATL-CDG on a B777, and there is that MCO run/spare and the rest of B777s would be for the Pacific..why not consider some B764s to trans-atlantic routes. I would say it is do-able.

TokyoNarita.

[Edited 2004-09-23 19:56:38]

User currently offlineAA787 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 611 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (10 years 3 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 5435 times:

I would think an airline would want to start service to PEK so they could be entrenched for the 2008 olympics.

AA should push to also get an Asian Flight from JFK. PEK would work well and It would do incredibly well due to the new interest in China travel. Also the new terminal will at least be partly complete when these new routes begin.

Question:Are there only 2 slots available?

AA787



ET In NYC
User currently offlinePbb152 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 619 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (10 years 3 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5285 times:

My 2 cents:

I believe CO gets the route(s) for one simple reason: why give the routes to AA from ORD where they will be competing with another U.S. carrier (UA) while the New York market is left with no service to mainland China by a U.S. airline? The New York area is just screaming for more nonstop service to mainland China (I believe Air China serves JFK nonstop from Beijing a few days a week, no) and one would think that the U.S. govt would love to have one of its flag carriers flying/competing on this/these routes.

As for this statement by MAH4546:

Despite UA already starting ORD-PVG, I really think AA will win for the 2005 slot. They are in the best financial state out of all the carriers, have the most resources available to fly the service and open up a new station.

Whether AA or CO is in better financial shape is really moot as neither is doing all that well and it would open a new station for CO as well. I do agree that AA has the most resources available (in terms of fleet availability), however this is also moot as CO would certainly be able to find the aircraft to fly these routes whether it be throught fleet/route reallocation, new aircraft purchases or aircraft leasing companies.


Pete

[Edited 2004-09-24 05:13:34]

User currently offlinePilotcoex From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (10 years 3 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 4919 times:

25% of the world's population live in China, and there is no direct service to most of America. Why is this taking so long? Direct flights between China and Mexico City were approved more than three months ago. JFK, EWR, ORD, and MEX will do well to China.

User currently offlineB2443 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 703 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (10 years 3 months 4 days ago) and read 4859 times:

Pilotcoex,
Well most of those 25% of world population have not even seen PEK or PVG yet...not to mention they don't need a 'visa' to visit their capital city whereas they would US and MX...


User currently offlineGlobaldude From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 237 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (10 years 3 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4739 times:

when is the DOT expected to decide?


User currently offlineDeltaRules From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3840 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (10 years 3 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 4697 times:

why not consider some B764s to trans-atlantic routes. I would say it is do-able

I thought they weren't going to do this, one of the reasons being the difference in the first class cabin (B777 BizElite vs. B767-400's standard first). The 767-400s have the range, though- I agree that it'd be doable.

DeltaRules



Let's Kick the Tires & Light the Fires!!
25 Cospn : Didn't DL pull out of SEL,BKK,TPE a Few Years ago ??? IS AA Still flying to TPE ???
26 STT757 : The Government is awarding routes for Spring '05 and Spring '06, since DL's application is for '06 we will leave them out of the first round which is
27 Chinaeastern : i think the AA ORD-PVG route is far more attractive than the UA ORD-PVG as the current UA route is pretty much US-Shanghai and that's it while AA can
28 Aa777jr : AA will be in PEK within a year or so...my CFI is a senior captain and air check man at AA and told me AA next big step across the Pacific would be Ch
29 Cospn : AA Should Try HKG or resume service to TPE make it work first ..Give the New route to CO who did all the work to fly the polar out of EWR to HKG, I Th
30 Klwright69 : I agree CO will be awarded the route for the simple reason others have stated: a stateside carrier competing with the Chinese carrier out of the NYC a
31 Burnsie28 : If your talking all of the major US carriers then no they are not: NW is followed by CO.
32 Aa777jr : Where does CO fly in the Orient right now? BKK PEK HKG SIN etc? AA777jr
33 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : I thought they weren't going to do this, one of the reasons being the difference in the first class cabin (B777 BizElite vs. B767-400's standard first
34 Ba319-131 : Giving it to AA would be great.The codeshare with MU(as stated above) could connect all of the USA with all of China,and hasten MU's future entry into
35 Burnsie28 : CO Serves (Actually CO Micronesia) Sapporo, Japan Sendai, Japan Niigata, Japan Tokyo, Japan (Also normal CO from New York Newark and Houston) Nagoya,
36 Cospn : Wow Bunsie28 You know your stuff..Not to be Rude to AA or DL but Co Tries to stick to markets Except HNL-AKL/SYD/MEL/BNE..DL and AA Pull in and out of
37 JoFMO : Its a very ambivalent think with CO and Asia. From the North American mainland they only have three daily flights to two Asian destination. All the ot
38 Blink182 : Even if AA/DL/CO didn't get the China slots, why couldn't their Asian partners with US service merely expand it? For example, MU already has rights to
39 DfwRevolution : And there is no reason why only foreign carriers should serve New York. So go on CO and open up Asia for you. Just wait until the 7E7 enters service..
40 WGW2707 : I think asking "who will win" is not the most relevant question in this case. There are many cases where airlines secure relatively equal marketshare
41 Chinaeastern : Blink182: MU don't actually have that many A340s to do US long hauls. and they're already doing more extensive code share with AA than anyone else. th
42 B2443 : Chinaeastern, Would you describe what kind of code-share agreement there is between MU and AA? I believe in order to expand "codeshare", one needs to
43 Chinaeastern : B2443: i know what you mean. the current agreement between MU and AA is that MU provides transpacific flights for AA while AA provides domestic flight
44 The777Man : I agree with the people that say CO will get the slots; NYC to China doens't have any US carrier. I'm also surprised that AA doesn't apply to fly from
45 MasseyBrown : The China-US agreement says a new US carrier will also be allowed in 2008 and 2010. So they'll all get a China route eventually. Sooner is better than
46 B2443 : Perhaps MU will start ORD service if AA doesn't get the rights ? MU used to do SHA-PEK-LAX-ORD-SEA-PEK-SHA with MD11s then they dropped SEA ORD altoge
47 The777Man : B2443, They always get more aircraft. If they lease, they can get aircraft without much delay. The777Man
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