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Etops  
User currently offlineChiguire From Venezuela, joined Sep 2004, 2004 posts, RR: 16
Posted (9 years 11 months 5 hours ago) and read 2074 times:

Can anybody give me a proper definition of ETOPS ?

22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17015 posts, RR: 67
Reply 1, posted (9 years 11 months 5 hours ago) and read 2061 times:

ETOPS stands for Extended-range Twin-engine Operational Performance Standards.

It allows twins to operate up to a certain number of flying minutes from a diversionary airport. The number of minutes is calculated with the flying speed on one engine.

The several classes comes in with the number of minutes. There is ETOPS 180, ETOPS 207 and ETOPS 240. (Is there a 120?)

So if an engine fails, the aircraft is tested and certified to keep going on one engine to a diversionary airport located within a certain number of minutes. This allows the route to go over desolate stretches of ocean or land and potentially saves time and fuel.

Hawaii is the most isolated place in the world in this respect btw  Big grin


Critics of ETOPS say it is a numbers game, and that eventually both engines will fail on some flight and there will be a big hole in the ocean. Proponents (including myself, not that I count much) say that if both engines fail the problem would have taken out all the engines on a triplet or quad anyway. Besides which engines almost never fail anyway, especially not in cruise.

Triplets and quads operating at these ranges from diversionary airports have to follow LROPS, Long Range Operational Performance Standards.


ETOPS is sometimes referred to as: Engines Turn Or Passengers Swim  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

[Edited 2004-09-25 23:27:45]


"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently onlineLimaFoxTango From Antigua and Barbuda, joined Jun 2004, 784 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (9 years 11 months 5 hours ago) and read 2046 times:

You'll find quite a number of deffinitions for ETOPS. All mean the same thing in essence. One other deffinition is Extended Twin-engine Over-water Operations.


You are said to be a good pilot when your take-off's equal your landings.
User currently offlineUnitedTristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (9 years 11 months 5 hours ago) and read 2041 times:

They offer a good definition-

http://www.airlinedispatch.com/_fps/etops.htm

-m

 Big thumbs up


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17015 posts, RR: 67
Reply 4, posted (9 years 11 months 5 hours ago) and read 2039 times:

Extended Twin-engine Over-water Operations.

Yes but since ETOPS regulations don't care whether you are over water or not, that's not really the correct definition.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineChiguire From Venezuela, joined Sep 2004, 2004 posts, RR: 16
Reply 5, posted (9 years 11 months 5 hours ago) and read 2038 times:

UnitedTristar, thank u for that link !

User currently offlineUnitedTristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (9 years 11 months 5 hours ago) and read 2017 times:

ANYTIME Big grin

-m

 Big thumbs up


User currently offlineDl021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 7, posted (9 years 11 months 5 hours ago) and read 1999 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Engines Turn Or Passengers Swim


Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineUnitedFirst From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 478 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (9 years 11 months 5 hours ago) and read 1979 times:

Starlionblue,

I think the original ETOPS used by TWA on its 767-200s was actually ETOPS120.

However, with the advances in engine technology, I think ETOPS180 is now the "baseline model", if you will.

Derek


User currently offlineCaptain777 From Kuwait, joined Dec 2003, 315 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (9 years 11 months 4 hours ago) and read 1960 times:

So why do they write this on the aircraft ? I've seen Kuwait Airways Aircrafts with ETOPS written on them . It might sound a bit of a stupid question but why don't they write V1-156 VR-213 on some planes. What I mean is why is this particular information so important and more important than lets say the airplanes zero fuel weight or any other neccassary infromation about the aircraft ?- ( I know I sound a bit Stupid  Smile )


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Edward Lai



Captain777



the sky is the limit.............actually FL410 is the limit
User currently offlineNonrvsmdmf From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 186 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (9 years 11 months 4 hours ago) and read 1948 times:

I know of one 757 that is 60 minutes etops restricted. Its
a biatch to flight plan.



I did not forget...I just misplaced the thought...
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 11 months 4 hours ago) and read 1941 times:

I know of one 757 that is 60 minutes etops restricted

Considering that ETOPS begins to apply at 60min, that's not exactly something out of the ordinary  Big grin


User currently offlineA10warthog From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 324 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (9 years 11 months 4 hours ago) and read 1917 times:

Captain777

The Reason you will find ETOPS written on the aircraft is to let personal know that the aircraft is ETOPS certified. Not all twin engine aircraft are going to be ETOPS. Example I recently saw a CO 737 that is ETOPS, but the CO 737 at the next gate was not ETOPS.


User currently offlineSpacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3624 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (9 years 11 months 3 hours ago) and read 1874 times:

The Reason you will find ETOPS written on the aircraft is to let personal know that the aircraft is ETOPS certified. Not all twin engine aircraft are going to be ETOPS. Example I recently saw a CO 737 that is ETOPS, but the CO 737 at the next gate was not ETOPS.

What is the procedure for getting an aircraft ETOPS certified? Obviously airlines are not going through their airplanes one by one and flying around on one engine to see how long until they crash. So exactly how do they do it? I would imagine they would do it all on paper based on individual component certifications and performance and then certify all aircraft within an airline that conform to the same standard (ie. same engines, same maintenance schedules, etc.). Is that correct?



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlineStudentFlyer From Australia, joined Sep 2004, 688 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (9 years 11 months 3 hours ago) and read 1866 times:

As far as I know about the B773ER, when they did the certification test, they had to fly trans-continental with one engine for around 330 minutes. That is 5 and a half hours with one engine!! Anyway, I thought they got up to 6 hours on single engine (correct me if I'm wrong).

Regards,
AK


User currently offlineA10warthog From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 324 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (9 years 11 months 2 hours ago) and read 1830 times:

I do not know the procedure to get a plane initially ETOPS. I know before a plane can fly ETOPS there are maintenance procedure that have to be done. I work for a company and we do contract mx for CO, there procedure requires two mechanics to do the mx check. I know a oil check is required, but what else is required I do not know. I have never had to do one before. I know that on a ETOPS aircraft the APU has to be started in flight every 28 days or so.
I know I did not answer your question, maybe someone else can.


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17015 posts, RR: 67
Reply 16, posted (9 years 11 months 1 hour ago) and read 1792 times:

What is the procedure for getting an aircraft ETOPS certified? Obviously airlines are not going through their airplanes one by one and flying around on one engine to see how long until they crash. So exactly how do they do it? I would imagine they would do it all on paper based on individual component certifications and performance and then certify all aircraft within an airline that conform to the same standard (ie. same engines, same maintenance schedules, etc.). Is that correct?

There are indeed procedures. A combination of extra equipment and testing.

Maintenance on engines cannot be performed by the same crew or something like that. Extra fire suppressant foam to be carried. Etc...



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineBaw716 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2028 posts, RR: 27
Reply 17, posted (9 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1721 times:

There is also a 138 min ETOPS limitation which tends to apply to 767s flying transatlantic. While the 777 has been certified for 180 min ETOPS (the 777-300ER may have 240 min ETOPS), I don't believe (and anyone correct me if wrong), the 767-300ER is certified for only 138 min. The narrow body aircraft flying the transatlantic (A319LR) and B737-700/800/BBJ have 120 min ETOPS, this having to do with the power/weight/range capabilities of each aircraft. As you may remember, the 777 when it first came out had to go through increadibly difficult certification program to get the 180 min ETOPS (with the P&W engines). The newer generation engines, especially the GE90 and the new Trent engines are so powerful and reliable that the chances of them getting the 240 min ETOPS is very likely, especially tied to the 777 airframe.


David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
User currently offlineKlmyank From Netherlands, joined May 2004, 172 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (9 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1714 times:

KLM has a 747 co-co called E-tops.... Smile/happy/getting dizzy

User currently offlineTimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6810 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (9 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1593 times:

"I don't believe (and anyone correct me if wrong), the 767-300ER is certified for only 138 min. The narrow body aircraft flying the transatlantic (A319LR) and B737-700/800/BBJ have 120 min ETOPS..."

Maybe so, but don't forget 737s and 767s are (or have been) scheduled to Hawaii. It's been claimed the 767s can manage this on 138-minute ETOPS, but we assume that's wrong. Probably everyone agrees the 737s need 180.


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17015 posts, RR: 67
Reply 20, posted (9 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1570 times:

It's also worth mentioning that while a specific aircraft type may be ETOPS certified, this does not automatically make every aircraft of the type ETOPS capable. Every single aircraft that is flying ETOPS needs to maintain it's ETOPS certification or it will revert to being a non-ETOPS capable example that can still fly safely but not on ETOPS routes.


"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineWhitehatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (9 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1566 times:

I still prefer the other definition

Engines
Turn
Or
Passengers
Swim

hehe  Wink/being sarcastic


User currently offlineMoose1226 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 250 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (9 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1543 times:

The narrow body aircraft flying the transatlantic (A319LR) and B737-700/800/BBJ have 120 min ETOPS, this having to do with the power/weight/range capabilities of each aircraft.

Don't forget the 757, which is used for Trans-Atlantic flights even more often than any of the above aircraft. CO is one of the airlines that uses the 757 across the pond.


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