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ORD-JFK On AA  
User currently offlineJfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3627 posts, RR: 6
Posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3405 times:

Ok, most know that I am a big JFK fan . . . but let's but that aside for a minute and examine the following argument.

I was at ORD on Monday and one of AA's banners hanging from the ceiling said
"Take a bite of the Big Apple"
LaGuardia
Newark
Stewart/Newburgh

Let's just assume that there is no connecting traffic between ORD and JFK---none at all.

ORD is AA's second largest hub and is also the home airport to the third largest city in the United States.

JFK is the main international airport for the United States and is the largest and busiest airport serving the largest city in the United States.
JFK is also one of AA's largest gateway cities.

With that said, WHY ARE THERE NO FLIGHTS BETWEEN THE TWO AIRPORTS?

Let's not talk about demand either. THEY FLY TO NEWBURGH!
There has to be demand to justify Eagle and/or mainline flights on the JFK route!!!!

This is another example of AA sitting by idle until B6 beats them to the punch.

Neeleman has already said that JFK-ORD is an EMB 190 route multiple times a day!
Is AA going to wait for this to happen and then try to respond with 10 flights a day!

Look at LGB--Look at MCO--Look at SNA--Look at PHX.
It won't work. AA has to start these flights now!

PJ




21 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineOrd777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 258 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3374 times:

I have always wondered the same thing. Currently, I think there is one daily flight on Delta on an RJ. A couple of years ago I know that UA had a daily flight. I took it on a Sunday evening once. It departed around 7pm. It was a 757 and was completely full. I totally agree that if flights between ORD-JFK were offered, they would fill up. Maybe not if they were every hour but at least several daily frequencies on UA and AA. But I guess since UA offered it and no longer does that perhaps its not a worthwhile route.

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33286 posts, RR: 71
Reply 2, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3374 times:

With that said, WHY ARE THERE NO FLIGHTS BETWEEN THE TWO AIRPORTS?

There is absolutely no need.

The European destinations are served non-stop from O'Hare, so people aren't going to be going ORD-JFK-ZRH.

The Caribbean destinations are served much quicker through Miami. So people aren't going to be going ORD-JFK-SDQ.

The domestic destinations are all served through O'Hare. People aren't going to be doing ORD-JFK-RDU.

The business travelers are going to Newark and LaGuardia. They aren't going to be doing ORD-JFK.

Why in the world would they waste their resources on a flight that would produce pathetic yields and have little demand?

Delta Conneciton flies ORD-JFK daily to feed their European flights, since they don't fly O'Hare-Europe.



a.
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33286 posts, RR: 71
Reply 3, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3359 times:

But I guess since UA offered it and no longer does that perhaps its not a worthwhile route.

UA's ORD-JFK service only operated once a week. It operated ORD-JFK on Fridays and JFK-ORD on Sundays. This was to position the aircraft into JFK for their weekend JFK-SJU flights. When JFK-SJU ended, so did the ORD-JFK positioning service.

AA, for a while in 2002, also had a weekly ORD-JFK-ORD service that positioned aircraft into JFK.



a.
User currently offlineAa777jr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3348 times:

I think AA flys ORD-LGA and leaves JFK and ORD for more International destinations.

AA777jr


User currently offlineSHUPirate1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3670 posts, RR: 16
Reply 5, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3340 times:

Forget ORD-JFK flights...I used to post a topic just about daily suggesting ORD-JFK flights...you might have a better chance convincing our friend Osama to give himself up...

Worth noting about the DCI flight ORD-JFK is that they absolutely will not sell any ticket lower than a "B" class fare for local passengers on that route, which comes to well over 1400 dollars roundtrip, as the only thing more expensive than a "B" ticket on DCI is a "Y" full-fare coach ticket...as a result, I find it not only difficult, but almost entirely impossible to believe that there is even at least one local passenger on the flight every day...



Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
User currently offlineORDflyer From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 511 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3319 times:

I think MAH4546 hit it on the head...there is not a need for AA's ORD passengers to connect in JFK to fly internationally, and LGA/EWR are more convenient for most travellers visiting New York.

User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 56
Reply 7, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3316 times:

I am going to disagree here, I think that AA is making a mistake by ignoring the JFK-ORD market for a couple of reasons:

1. JetBlue has proven that some NYC pax actually prefer JFK....not everyone on JetBlue is there only because of fares. JFK is far more convenient for many NYC residents in parts of Queens and Brooklyn, and JFK is easier for most residents and business located on the South Shore of Long Island - huge population areas to consider. Also, some pax originating in ORD may prefer JFK over LGA for various reasons.

2. Service between JFK and ORD would be more than O&D. Pax originating at JFK could take advantage of the ORD hub.

3. Why can AA make a case for service between JFK and DFW (another thread mentions that AA will operate 4 757s per day on this route over the winter) - and cannot make a case for any service between JFK and ORD?

4. Of course, LGA is preferred by most NewYorkers over JFK for domestic flying.....but pax do prefer choice, between 2 and 4 well timed MD80 flights per day in the JFK-ORD market would probably work. AA seems to be leaving this route wide open for JetBlue.


User currently offlineSHUPirate1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3670 posts, RR: 16
Reply 8, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3296 times:

Dutchjet-May I add #5 to that list?

5. It is cheaper to get to midtown Manhattan (I'm using Penn Station here) from JFK than any of the other two major airports...the only option from LGA is a taxi, which is absolutely brutal on your fare...expect to pay 30 dollars or more...EWR, in addition, is expensive too, 7 dollars to get to the airport station, and then another 5 dollars to get to Penn Station...JFK, on the other hand, is 7 dollars total...5 to get to the A-Train Station, and then 2 more to get to Penn Station...



Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
User currently offlineUA744KSFO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3266 times:

One thing that a lot of people forget is that while LGA is most convenient to get to midtown, not all New Yorkers live close to midtown.

Both UA and AA would be offering a better option to the nearly 4 million people who live closer to JFK than LGA or the craphole known as EWR.

All southern points of Brooklyn, Queens, and Long Island are closer to JFK than to LGA. I grew up in Bensonhurst, and I would pick JFK any day over the other two.


User currently offlineBOSSAN From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 255 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3238 times:

A customer for whom a $5 difference in ground transportation price (EWR-Penn vs JFK-Penn) makes a large difference is not the kind of customer American would desire to schedule flights to attract. Even ATA flies MDW-LGA and MDW-EWR but not MDW-JFK.

American, like the rest of the legacy airlines, has scheduled uneconomic flights to fight off low-cost competition; the just-cancelled JFK-LGB service is a case in point. However, there's also competition between the legacy airlines to take into account. The ORD flight delays of this year have been caused by a frequency war between UA and AA; in a frequency war splitting your service between two comparable airports is likely to lose you market share. Establishing an hourly schedule out of LGA is more likely to keep the business customers happy than moving some flights to JFK would. If LGA is way way way too much of a hassle to get to from Long Island, they could fly out of Islip via Boston.

AA serves DFW with fewer European destinations than it does ORD and JFK, so it makes sense to route customers DFW-JFK-Europe. In addition, they run one-stop DFW-JFK-LHR services, since by Bermuda II they can only serve DFW-LGW nonstop.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33286 posts, RR: 71
Reply 11, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3181 times:

Why can AA make a case for service between JFK and DFW (another thread mentions that AA will operate 4 757s per day on this route over the winter) - and cannot make a case for any service between JFK and ORD?

European connections.



a.
User currently offlineFlyguy1 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1743 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3163 times:

I doubt AA can pack 4 757's per day to JFK with strictly European connections. There has got to be some O/D passengers, especially on the am flights.


727, L1011, MD80, A300, 777-200, 737-300, 737-700, 747-400, 757-200, 737-800, A320. E190, E135, 767-200, CRJ9
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 13, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3156 times:

Newark and Laguardia are where all the business traffic wants to go, if there was demand from business travelers for flights to Chicago from JFK lord knows someone would be serving that route.

JFK will always lack any meaningful service to business centers within 1,500 miles, because the Corporate centers of the Region are in Manhattan and Northern New Jersey making LGA and EWR the prefered gateways. While Brooklyn and Queens have substantial populations they lack any Corporate presence, Manhattan obviously has two out of the three largest Central business Districts in the Country (Lower Manhattan, Mid-town) but you have to drive past LGA to get to JFK from Manhattan and the worst part of the drive to JFK is between LGA and JFK.

Northern New Jersey is headquarters to many large companies such as At&t, Johnson & Johnson, Merck, Honeywell, Bristol Myers Squib, Dow Jones/Wall Street Journal, Prudential. Also many International Corporations have their US headquarters in NJ including, Panasonic, BMW, Novartis, Bayer, Hyundai etc..

Newark and Laguardia airports get a larger percentage of business travelers than JFK, JFK's growth as of late is in LCC leisure routes to places like Florida, the West Coast and the Carribean.

Long Island Business travelers as well as those from Fairfield County Connecticut prefer to fly out of LGA, Westchester travelers have LGA and HPN.

Frankly Im not convinced of B6's comitment to a JFK-Chicago flight, with the state US Airways is in I would not be surprised to see B6 persue their slots should they become available to launch routes such as Chicago, Toronto etc from LGA (ala AA's split NYC service).. Boston and Washington Dulles are existing B6 stations, it would not be that hard to establish new routes from JFK to both stations if demand warranted. From the lack of service I would take that to mean demand is not there for those routes.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33286 posts, RR: 71
Reply 14, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3135 times:

I doubt AA can pack 4 757's per day to JFK with strictly European connections. There has got to be some O/D passengers, especially on the am flights.


Those seeking bargain fares, tour groups that buy tickets in bulk, etc., etc.. AA rather put them on DFW-JFK (a money loosing route for AA; this specific route was used as an example of AA's money loosing routes in a USA Today article a few months ago), and leave LGA/EWR seats open for business travelers paying higher fares.



a.
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 15, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3128 times:

Toronto is another major Business center lacking flights from JFK, AA has plenty of flights to Toronto from LGA but not one from JFK. There is only one daily flight (DL CRJ) between JFK and Toronto, where LGA and EWR get multiple daily frequencies from Multiple Airlines (Air Canada, CO, AA, Jetsgo etc..) Mostly big jets too 737s A320s etc..


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineCsavel From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1375 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3109 times:

As a native NY'er and one who was born in Long Island and raised in Queens I can tell you this has mystified me as well.

1) LGA is not universally the easiest or most convenient for Queens Brooklyn and LI, lots of people prefer JFK, if only because LGA has a (deserved) reputation for delays, especially in inclement weather. Blame those two short intersecting runways.

2) As jfklganyc points out, AA can muster an RJ to Stewart, now no offense to the beautiful Hudson valley, but I think LI has a lot more travellers and fairly wealthy ones at that and lots of businesses, even if LI politicians do their damnedest to drive out any and every business it can.

3) even non-business travellers, grannies visiting kids in the Midwest, people going on vacation, there has to be a market, I mean Long Island, Queens and Brooklyn have 7 million people, and for at least half of them,JFK is the most convenient airport.

4) and let's try to ascertain the habits of the typical business traveller. He works in Midtown, tries to catch the 6:30 to O'Hare for that big meeting,OK but don't you think there would be a lot who would love an early 7:00 flight that can get them to the loop by 9:30 Chi time? Lots of bedroom communities there in LI.

Well obviously AA's home office in Dallas isn't calling me for advice so I assume there isn't money to be made and they know what they're doing. But as a local I have to wonder why?



I may be ugly. I may be an American. But don't call me an ugly American.
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 17, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3083 times:

Charles Gargano head of the Empire State Development Corp and Co-Chairman of the Port Authority has made mention of expanding the JFK Airtrain from Jamaica to LGA, this would serve two purposes.

First obviously to connect JFK with it's Domestic Terminal (LGA), and second to connect LGA with Transit connections (Flushing LIRR/ #7, N train at Astoria), the MTA has officialy withdrawn the $650 Million allocated during the Giulianni administration to connect LGA with the N train and diverted that money to the MTA's other priority projects (ESA, SAS etc..).

Connecting JFK and LGA via the Airtrain would be very expensive, probably more than double the current Airtrain's $3.5 Billion Dollar price tag. However the benefits might actualy justify that investment compared to the proposals to connect JFK to Lower Manhattan which would cost upwards of $6 Billion and serve 10,000 daily riders.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlinePROSA From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5644 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3020 times:

Connecting JFK and LGA via the Airtrain would be very expensive, probably more than double the current Airtrain's $3.5 Billion Dollar price tag. However the benefits might actualy justify that investment compared to the proposals to connect JFK to Lower Manhattan which would cost upwards of $6 Billion and serve 10,000 daily riders.

I really don't believe the JFK-Lower Manhattan connection was ever a well-thought-out idea. It was more like a knee-jerk reaction to the economic damage that 9/11 inflicted on Lower Manhattan, a way of doing something that might help the area get back on its feet.



"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4593 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2985 times:


Both UA and AA would be offering a better option to the nearly 4 million people who live closer to JFK than LGA or the craphole known as EWR.

I don't think EWR is a "craphole" --- but everyone's entitled to their opinions!


User currently offlineCkfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5310 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2877 times:

As much as B6 would like to start service to ORD, it will be difficult for them. B6 has said on several occaissions that it must have at least 4, and preferable 5 gates at ORD.

Right now, UA has only 2 gates. It used to have 3 or 4, but I think they have been turned over to UA and/or AC.

I would beg to differ about passengers at ORD not needing to connect at JFK for European destinations. A friend of mine travels to Europe a lot on business, often at the last minute.

More than a few times, he has wound up on UA or a European carrier, because AA flights have been full, and his alternatives are to connect at DFW, or fly to LGA, then take a cab to JFK, both of which consume a lot of time.

Considering that buying the TWA assests was designed to add more flexibility for east-west flying, as well as adding alternatives for O&D traffic out of ORD, maybe adding an MD-80 between ORD and JFK, timed with the largest bank of European arrivals and departures at JFK, might make some sense.


User currently offlineILoveORD From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 220 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2864 times:

I have to agree MAH4546 on this one. As a frequent flier between Chicago and New York (based in Chicago) and between Chicago and European destinations, I don't see the need for ORD-JFK flights. Sure, while I would prefer to fly into JFK over LGA, LGA still has a great location as is a short hop to midtown, where my firm's NYC offices are. This past summer, I did have to fly straight to Europe from JFK, but with a return flight to straight back to ORD. Again, I didn't have to do the JFK-ORD route. Like I said, would I like to see ORD-JFK, yes. But would I need it, no.


Backhanding the left into submission, one activist judge at a time.
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