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WN Gets ATA 800's - It's (un)official  
User currently offlineBarney Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 887 posts, RR: 13
Posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 13341 times:

One of our Chief Pilots has told us that Herb and Gary Kelly were in IND securing 34 of ATA's -800's. The rest of the rumour holds that the 757's will go to HP and ATA will maintain their charter operation (what little is left of it).

There is also LOTS of shuffling of simulator traing periods around apparently to free up more sim time for..........?


...from the Banana Republic....
94 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineNtspelich From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 764 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 13236 times:

Well, if this is the case, this does blow the door wide open for expanding PHL and the much-rumored opening of DFW. I just wonder how we managed to keep it under the radar, while the HP/TZ discussions seemed to have been out in the open?


United 717 heavy, you're facing the wrong way. Any chance you can powerback to get off of my deice pad?
User currently offlineFlagshipAZ From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3419 posts, RR: 14
Reply 2, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 13173 times:

If this is true, it means that WN will add a 4th flight attendant to the cabin crew. I can't see WN operating 738s with the same number of seats as the 73Gs do. BTW a bit off topic, but doesn't TZ have no more than 33 738s, and that they're all leased? Regards.


"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
User currently offlineBrons2 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2991 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 13109 times:

They could offer the 738 with 149 seats and still use 3 flight attendants. Probably be around a 36" seat pitch! Sign me up!


Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
User currently offlineBlatantEcho From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1896 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 13092 times:

would love to hear something more official before thinking this fact. It's extremely interested though. Should buy some LUV and see what occurs.

George



They're not handing trophies out today
User currently offlineIowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4312 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 13029 times:
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I seriously doubt WN is interested in the 738's.


Next fights: WN DSM-LAS-PHX, US PHX-SJD. Return: US SJD-PHX, WN PHX-MDW-DSM
User currently offlineWedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5831 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 13007 times:
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Would that mean WN would pick up ATA's 737 flight crews?

User currently offline737captain From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 120 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 12951 times:

I'll believe it when I see it in a press release. That is way too many planes to pick up and operate with the amount of pilots WN currently employs. While I would love to see the -800 in WN colors, I just don't see it benefiting them. All it does is complicate a system that works perfectly for them.


"Why do you insist on man-pawing the glareshield everytime you climb up here?!"
User currently offlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6413 posts, RR: 51
Reply 8, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 12922 times:

You can't always believe chief pilots. One of our chief pilots SWORE that we would get a few A330-200's to start DEN-HNL service. Like that happened.


Next trip: MSY-SEA-GEG-SEA-LWS-BOI-PDX-SEA-LAS on AS
User currently offlineN1120a From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26196 posts, RR: 76
Reply 9, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 12887 times:

I agree that the 738 is a bit strange for WN, but they do fly 2 different sizes of planes. While the staffing is the same, they have fewer seats in the 732/735 than the 733/73G. Given the fact that they have a nice pitch and average just under 92% of the seats their planes are designed for, that would put them at 173-174 seats on the 738. ATA currently flies them with 177 seats, so WN would potentially remove a row of seats and have a similar config. The would probably also dump the facilities ATA uses to heat up food. If they really are picking up these planes, WN will likely be doing with Westjet did and use them till they can pick up more planes fresh from Boeing. That might be the key to the whole deal. As far as the leasing thing goes, WN does have some planes under lease, they are ones they took from other carriers. If you look at their fleet list, the leased planes are the ones without the code H4 (WN's Boeing code).


Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineTxAgKuwait From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 1803 posts, RR: 43
Reply 10, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 12861 times:

Won't believe it til I read it in the paper (the DMN or Forth Worth Startlegram) but this makes a certain amount of sense. It also suggests that WN continues to have the stars aligned just right for them often.

Delta is pulling down DFW.

WN has a huge presence and loyal following in the Dallas/Ft Worth area.

The 737-800 has a bit shorter range than the -700, but it can go anywhere in the country from DFW.

Putting 149 seats in a 737-800 means 3 FAs and means one heckuva comfortable ride. Who needs MRTC or an assigned seat when you have leather and 36"+ between you and seat in front of you?

Who needs AAdvantage miles which can be so difficult to cash in that you get AAgravated when you can get Rapid Rewards? (maybe even double credits for longer flights til they grab a big chunk of the market?)

Southwest is well established at BWI, MDW, MCI, PHX. LAX, STL, OAK, SJC, MCO, TPA, PHL, PVD, BNA, SAN, LAS, PVD etc etc etc. You can instantly and gainfully every single one of those airplanes without opening a single station.

Delta pulls down the schedule around February, as i recall...just about the right amount of time to retrofit these airplanes and do whatever crew training is necessary to transition from the 200/300/500/700 to the 800.

Southwest is accustomed to basing a subfleet in the Dallas area...the -200s have not lived elsewhere for quite some time.

Delta leaving turns DFW into a completely different ball game.....Southwest doesn't mind major airports...or big airports...what it has historically not liked is congested airports.

Southwest could ill afford to let AirTran or JetBlue to get a foothold in the Dallas area.

personally, I think it is a pretty neat idea.







User currently offlineN1120a From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26196 posts, RR: 76
Reply 11, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 12774 times:

The 738 can still easily do transcons, so I would imagine LAX-BWI, OAK-BWI, LAX-MSY would fill a 738. Certainly positioning revenue flights (which is pretty much every WN flight) LAX-LAS, BUR-LAS, etc. that are always full should also do really well


Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7344 posts, RR: 28
Reply 12, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 12747 times:

As 737captain said, just where is WN going to get the 300+ pilots to fly them overnight?

RUMOR!


User currently offlineTxAgKuwait From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 1803 posts, RR: 43
Reply 13, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 12733 times:

>>As 737captain said, just where is WN going to get the 300+ pilots to fly them overnight?<<

How long do you think it would take WN to transition folks from 700s to 800s?

How many USAirways pilots would take a long, hard look at flying ugly colored 737s for wages a whole lot more reasonable than what their management is dangling infront of them in BK court?



User currently offlineN1120a From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26196 posts, RR: 76
Reply 14, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 12709 times:

If ATA is getting rid of the planes, I am sure their 738 pilots would love to take a pay raise to fly at WN. Also, according to a few legacy pilots I have talked to, WN has a major backlog of pilot applications and tons of pilots on furlough and who are getting the shaft (US) would love to fly the LUVly planes WN flies (The 738s would not be the old ugly colors, they would be the oh so soothing canyon blue)


Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineILSApproach From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 410 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 12697 times:

So when is TZ done?

Getting the usual 6-8daily MDW/MSP/MDW flights here. Guess I've got to get more 738 shots then.

Mike @ MSP


User currently offlineSWAFA30 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 12696 times:

Just thinking out loud here....if TZ is indeed selling off their 738 and 757 fleet...I am assuming they are planning to pull down their focus city ops in MDW right? According to TxAg's theory, the 738s would be deployed at DFW to ward off other LCC poachers right? What about Chicago? FL is already in MDW and I've heard jetBlue is interested in ORD but if TZ does reduce ops what's to keep either of both carriers from setting up shop? I guess what I am saying is that sadly, the wheels are coming of the wagon at carriers all over the country and there are only a finite number of additional aircraft WN can deploy in a short period of time. How on earth do you protect MDW, DAL, and possibly pursue opportunities in PHL and perhaps PIT and/or CLT ...is any management team deft enough to pull that one off??

[Edited 2004-10-06 06:49:28]

User currently offlineA340Spotter From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1977 posts, RR: 24
Reply 17, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 12679 times:

Pair of things...

1. Regarding the 737-800 being flown with 3 FA's, they would have to get the plane certified under their ops specs to do so, providing they went with the 149 seating arrangement. Except for the BBJ2, all of the 738s out there are demonstrated with 4 FA's.

2. A separate rumor has the 757-300s heading to CO, so if this 738 rumor to WN was true, would the -200s be the only planes left to support the 3-4 L1011s left flying charters? Seems like there's a lot of planes disappearing from the TZ fleet in these rumors...

Jeffrey



"Irregardless, it's a Cat III airplane, we don't need an alternate!"
User currently offlineBR715-A1-30 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 12609 times:

It is perfectly feasible. Use the 737-800s for flights over 3 hours long and add an extra galley... What I mean is take, for example, what DL did to the Shuttle 738s. Take 2-3 rows out of the Port Side and add a small galley there. This will keep the crew to 2 + 3 and they will have plenty of room for supplies. The only question is how much money will they lose from those 6 to 9 seats.

User currently offlineN1120a From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26196 posts, RR: 76
Reply 19, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 12589 times:

This is WN, they wont drop the seats to a less profitable level so they can staff them with fewer F/As. They will just change their computers to put a fourth F/A on the flight, if they take the 738s


Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineKohflot From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 12560 times:

I also agree they'll staff with the extra FA.. if just for one reason: consistency.

Having different configurations can only confuse passengers. How would someone feel if they got off a plane with 36+" only to board one in a standard configuration? And I just don't see any efficiencies in keeping them strictly limited to a DFW hub. Even the 732s stray away from the mothership every once in a while - or at least they used to.

I think to get the most out of what the plane can do.. DFW expansion, transcons, beef up heavily loaded routes.. and to avoid confusing their passengers they'll go with the extra FA.



User currently offlineBaw716 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2026 posts, RR: 27
Reply 21, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 12551 times:

The other piece of this equation is that it would make WN THE player at MDW. ATA has built up so much of their operation around that airport if they were to contract and sell off the 738s, considering the size operation WN has now, this would make them a very big player in Chicago. This creates problems for the other two large carriers that are at O'Hare. If WN can carry off a large hub operation at MDW, then it would take the heart out of United. That is another story.

I am less certain about the 757s. The 753s are the replacement for the L10s. They need two variants of the 757 based on the missions they fly, even if they were charter. I would imagine you would see them keeping enough aircraft to fly their existing tour operator charter contracts plus the military stuff, then provide aircraft for adhoc charters.

This is the second time around for ATA, and I really hoped that they would make it. however, from what I can see, they cannot go head to head with the big guys with the 757 on domestic and the 738 is too big to go toe to toe with the LCCs like WN and B6.



David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
User currently offlineAlexinwa From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1142 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 12533 times:

Dont the 737-700 and -800 have the same cockpit? Where is the training needed to take a WN -700 pilot into a -800?

If it's true, it seems natural for WN to grow a little with the -800's.

HP getting the 757-200's makes perfect sense.

CO getting the -300's works out great as well? What powerplants do the TZ 300's have compared to NW or CO? Maybe NW wants a few of them?

Current TZ Fleet:

738=33
752=16
753=12
L10=5

According to Airfleets.com



You mad Bro???
User currently offlineAlexinwa From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1142 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 12518 times:

Then again maybe NW throws more money at TZ, gets all the 757's and doesnt have to ask Boeing to re-open a dead production line?!?


You mad Bro???
User currently offlineN1120a From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26196 posts, RR: 76
Reply 24, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 12472 times:

Um, lots of low fare carriers use the 738 (FR, Air Berlin) and the A320 is not much smaller (179 to 189 seat max) while if burns more fuel and uses the same number of crew, so they should compare quite well with B6. Like I have said time and time again, ATA is not insovlent, they are illiquid. They have made profits, just not enough to cover their back loaded debt that they negotiated before 9/11. If the banks actually give them a chance to pay their bills, they will have no problem surviving.


Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
25 Ken777 : I don't see Southwest passing up a significant, viable opportunity. Nor do I see them letting their competition get their noses under the tent in Sout
26 Dutchjet : This could happen: The 738s would be useful to Southwest for certain transcon/high-density flights and they would add a fourth flight attentant to max
27 Post contains images Cragley : OK Here is another possibility. CO takes the 738's??? HP takes the 757's??? And this speculation gets us nowhere
28 Foxiboy : I thought TZ leased the 738, so how can WN buy theses A/C or will they take on the leases of these A/C. As far as i know an airline can sell A/C that
29 OPNLguy : >>>I thought TZ leased the 738, so how can WN buy theses A/C or will they take on the leases of these A/C. As far as i know an airline can sell A/C th
30 N1120a : No lessor is going to get stuck with 738s, the mere fact that WN, who is first in line for any 737 would buy a plane that is not their normal size sho
31 Tiger119 : "One of our Chief Pilots has told us that Herb and Gary Kelly were in IND securing 34 of ATA's -800's......" - With all due respect Captain, where did
32 Planespotting : i wonder when herb had the time to be in Indy? I saw him yesterday at 3pm inside the DAL terminal for Western Chief Pilot Dave Edens last flight, and
33 Lat41 : How different is the short field performance for an 800 vs a 700 series? I have heard that the approach speed for one thing, is 15kt higher for the 80
34 Drerx7 : A little off-topic; but what kind of car does Herb drive?
35 ChiGB1973 : OK, TZ is currently putting biz class in all of the planes. If WN were that close to a deal, this would be stopped immediately. The schedule is for 1
36 Planespotting : Herb drives an Audi, i believe he also has a Honda. I told him if he ever needs a driver to come get me (this was when he was sitting in a new mazzara
37 Vortex : How do you get 300 pilots for the airplanes. Easy, the fragmentation clause of the ATA Pilot contract requires that the deal include pilots. This woul
38 7E72004 : That is a crock of sh*t!! I have a better chance of getting Natasha Henstridge in bed!
39 Dayflyer : What the heck happened to ATA? Are they going out of business now?
40 Gigneil : While I agree this is probably still conjecture, I don't agree with those that assign it no chance or little chance. WN ops two different sizes of 737
41 Kim777fan : Why would they need 300 new pilots for just 33 planes at most????? Besides if a large number of 732's have to be retired, this obviously would at leas
42 AirTran737 : I believe the ATA pilot contract has stipulation that is the company sells 10 or more of any type of airplane to another company, the pilots for said
43 Spacepope : Actually, this would free up a heck of a lot of capacity if WN decided to sell those rumored 733s and 735s to FedEx. This would be just about the only
44 Dacman : To all the armchair CEO's out there, "never say never" when it comes to Southwest. I've been with WN for 9 years and have been told on several occasio
45 Aa717driver : SCOPE/fragmentation clauses aren't worth the paper they're written on. Name one instance when it was enforced against the wishes of both side's manage
46 Luv2fly : I could see the TZ pilots invited to interview though with WN they are not just going to take them, they are going to have to be a good fit the pilots
47 Post contains images Vanguard737 : "I won't believe it till I read in in the paper" HELL! I won't believe it if it IS in the paper! Pardon me, but was it not the London Times an a Dalla
48 Post contains images Cumulonimbus : I agree with you Vanguard, and I like the name AirTan LOL Cheers, Mike
49 Post contains images S12PPL : TxAgKuwait and others: "Where are they going to get the 300+ pilots to fly these planes?" Umm.....hire som TZ pilots? Maybe? Possibly?
50 Ifly2eat : They will not take any ATA pilots. Get real! B-737 pilots are a dime a dozen these days. AirTran737, There is fragmentation language in our most recen
51 Vanguard737 : Ifly2eat: ...huh?
52 PHX Flyer : It's amazing how this thread - based on a galley rumor spread by someone who claims to be a SWA pilot - has already prompted so many responses. May I
53 Kevin752 : So basicly ATA is a done deal very soon. That is very sad. I guess there will be no more plesant Hawaiin flights Wit TZ from LAX anymore soon. Kevin7
54 Qqflyboy : For the record... there are airlines that operate the 738 with only three flight attendants. AA is one of them. The FAA requires one F/A per 50 seats.
55 Greg : ATA is a financial mess...I'm actually surprised they are still flying. In regard to the 737's....they are definetly trying to divest themselves of th
56 AirTran737 : Look for an announcement from ATA by the 14th of this month.
57 Ifly2eat : Okay Vanguard what part don't you understand?
58 Post contains images Barney Captain : PHX Flyer, I realize there is now way to validate someones credentials here on Anet so I won't take your questioning of my profile to heart Having sai
59 Ifly2eat : When rumors like these get so hot and heavy I almost look forward to the eventual calm that unemployment will bring.[Edited 2004-10-06 20:22:55]
60 Post contains images Vanguard737 : BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH Y'all said they same exact stuff a month ago, I should hire you all to pick my lotto numbers, problem is, your predictions ar
61 OPNLguy : >>>It's amazing how this thread - based on a galley rumor spread by someone who claims to be a SWA pilot - has already prompted so many responses. Not
62 767-332ER : Here's something... Seeing all the confusion, why doesn't WN do what SIA did with their A340's...trade the 738's to Boeing for more 737-700's? Could
63 Gigneil : Why would they do that? Why just not buy the 738s at all, and acquire new 73Gs from Boeing. SIA had commitments to something they did not want, and tr
64 Greg : WN has expressed interest in acquiring three gates from ATA at Midway. Reuters reported this on the 24th of last month.....ATA confirming that 'some'
65 Tom in NO : WN has expressed interest in acquiring three gates from ATA at Midway. Reuters reported this on the 24th of last month.....ATA confirming that 'some'
66 N766UA : I think it's about time ATA got out of the scheduled flying business anyway. They offer absolutly nothing different to the traveler, their fares/airpl
67 Greg : I'm aware of that---I never said 'sold', did I? You can acquire leases as well. There are 27 preferential use gates and two city owned gates. But whil
68 AirframeAS : One of our Chief Pilots has told us that Herb and Gary Kelly were in IND securing 34 of ATA's -800's. You're kidding me, right?
69 Fly_ata : hey N766UA....your comments are pretty funny coming from someone with "UA" on their name, like they are in any better shape....and the new paint job i
70 Vanguard737 : Greg: No....I'm definately informed, which is why I am telling you what I have been saying this whole time. I think you are confusing uninformed and u
71 Post contains images Northwest717 : Sounds great, however with several others, I will believe it when I see it. -Tim
72 Tom in NO : Didn't see the word "lease" with regards to gates, written anywhere above; did read "interest in acquiring three gates from ATA at Midway", and "'some
73 Ifly2eat : N766UA, I'll assume from your user name that you are a fan of that "other" airline that operates out of O'Hare. By the way have you ever flown on ATA?
74 CanadaEH : Aside from the rumor itself, why the doubt about Southwest ever flying 737-800's? I work for Westjet, and once all of our 737-200 aircraft have been r
75 Fly_ata : That was very well put Ifly2eat, well put indeed.
76 SegmentKing : If anyone is taking over ATA's aircraft/gates, I'd pray they bring the employees over as well. -n
77 Jason McDowell : Ifly2eat.......thanks for posting what so many of are constantly thinking. Welcome to my respected users list. -JM
78 ORDflyer : I'll agree with the last few posts...that was a great statement Ifly2eat made. It is obvious that N766UA, as well as some others have never flown ATA,
79 Starrion : While ATA's facilities at Boston are overcrowded and shabby, and MDW is very crowded, I was surprised at how well ATA did when I flew them. The aircra
80 Capitol8s : ifly2eat, WELL SAID, someone with brains..... United was ONCE a premier carrier, now it is just another carrier with unhappy employees and crappy serv
81 Bigphilnyc : If ATA loses their 738s, I'd lose my mind.
82 Cloudy : How do you get 300 pilots for the airplanes. Easy, the fragmentation clause of the ATA Pilot contract requires that the deal include pilots. This woul
83 Post contains images DfwRevolution : However, as I understand it, Southwest's -700 cockpits are somewhat unique in that they are made to look and feel more like the old -300 series than l
84 Moman : Ifly2eat: How dare you bash United!!!! You might actually offend some of the "United" lovers on here. I got eaten alive in a post because I said some
85 N1120a : I have flown ATA 6 times (3 Round Trips), all on their L1011s and the planes were always clean, the crews were always cool and the flights great (help
86 Chicago757 : Geez........I don't know how many times to tell people ATA isnt going anywhere! No one is getting their planes, no one is getting their gate space (es
87 RayChuang : I think if Southwest wants the 737-800's from ATA, they'll take them. The reason is simple: WN is doing a lot more non-stop transcon flying than it us
88 Confuscius : ...as I understand it, Southwest's -700 cockpits are somewhat unique in that they are made to look and feel more like the old -300 series than like th
89 N1120a : Again, much like the flight deck, that is all a case of software and computers. They can reprogram the flight deck and disable autothrottle and autob
90 Swacle : Ok, my .02 on this subject... I am a fan of ATA, always have been. They took the low fare model to the next level, but I don't know if they will succe
91 Planespotting : regarding the post about VNAV, autothrottle and autobraking: VNAV and autothrottle are not used, Southwest wants the pilot to be in somewhat control o
92 MidnightMike : Swacle Very good post, you explained yourself very clearly....
93 Aa717driver : Ignoring all the rumors and cheerleading, the fact is, Tague got ATA into airplanes that were too expensive. Unless the lessors will give market rates
94 Fly_ata : Why would we continue to reconfigure the 73's with Biz class at such an aggressive pace ( almost one per day ) only to let them go ? doesnt make sense
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