Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Delta To Increase Economy Seat Pitch  
User currently offlineOrd From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 1382 posts, RR: 1
Posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5473 times:

A Delta employee on flyertalk.com copied part of an internal Delta memo that said Delta will be making a number of future in-flight enhancements in addition to the recently announced leather seats, upgraded lighting and nicer lavatories. Mentioned in the memo (no timetable given):

1. An increase in economy seat pitch to 33 inches where possible and no less than 32 inches (currently 40% of Delta's economy seats are 30-31 inches)
2. New, more comfortable cushions for first class seats
3. Refreshed menu options
4. New in-flight entertainment
5. Enhanced international flights with upgraded seats, more personalized dining and upgraded in-flight entertainment for both BusinessElite and economy

41 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSspontak From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 476 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5438 times:

Go Delta. You are on the right track, I mean runway!


Go Delta!
User currently offlineSHUPirate1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3670 posts, RR: 16
Reply 2, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5162 times:

"I have a great idea...we're not making money with more seats on our planes, so we're going to take seats OUT of our planes, leaving us with less passengers on our planes, and thus reducing revenue, and increasing losses!"-Gerald Grinstein, obviously having a bout of idiocy...

I'm no fan of Delta, but the seat pitch increase simply isn't going to help the balance sheet, if you ask me...not until they get their customer service in order, at the very least...



Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
User currently offlineAstrojet707 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 299 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5143 times:

Excellent move. I flew DL from ATL to DUB/SNN, ZRH, LGW and EZE and the "Y" seat pitch sucked and I am only 5"7. I will fly DL to Europe after the reconfigurations are completed. Way to go!


AJ707


User currently offlineJafa From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 782 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5113 times:

Gimme more, for less. Quality will suffer at some point when prices go down. If not the company goes out of business.
Poeple who fly American love the extra space, but are unwilling to pay a small premium for it.
Most people want cheap tickets.


User currently offlineOrd From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 1382 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5087 times:

Nowhere does it say seats will be removed ala AA. If only 1-3" are being added, perhaps there are new seats that are slightly slimmer, or some other cabin reconfiguration such as the movement of a bulkhead, that allows for the extra room.

User currently offlineDeltadude From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 134 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5062 times:

It's clear that FL is in DL's sites...once the PVTs are added, it's over.

User currently offlineAlanUK From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5052 times:

This is a debate I always find very funny. Passengers always acclaim airlines that increase seat pitch... but then ditch the exact same airlines for increasing prices. It's a simple equation: less seats = higher prices.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for giving Y class more room, but it simply will not work until ALL airlines are together on this, or that some kind of ruling is imposed on the grouds of human rights to force airlines to a specified pitch.

Let's face it, most travellers in Y are looking for the cheapest ticket available, legroom comes further down the list...


User currently offlineWindowSeat From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1312 posts, RR: 57
Reply 8, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4967 times:

"I have a great idea...we're not making money with more seats on our planes, so we're going to take seats OUT of our planes, leaving us with less passengers on our planes, and thus reducing revenue, and increasing losses!"-Gerald Grinstein, obviously having a bout of idiocy...

SHUPirate1,

In fact, Grinstein is headed in the right direction. It won't be easy for Delta to bring back it's revenues and people, but he's trying. Let me explain....

Recently, Cornell University did a research paper on why discounting doesn't work for hotels and it sorta holds true for airlines too. If you discount too much, your passengers get used to the cheap tickets. It does increase RASM or keeps it from falling, no doubt, but only due to an increase in load factor. Now you've cut services to make up for the lower ticket prices. When demand comes back, and you raise your prices, people are still not ready to pay the higher prices, because they were just used to the lower prices. So, you cut more services to meet the pax demands and so people expect even lower prices...we call it the death spiral.

The other side of the equation is that when demand comes back airlines can provide better services if people are ready to pay more. But people won't pay more until you add these premium services. So, who wants to go first....?

Well, Delta is going first! By showing their passengers that they are committed to service, and the comfort of the travelling public, they can slowly start to build their ticket prices. It'll take time for people to see it that way, but once they see it, they'll come back, and you can add more services. See how that works in reverse?

While I want to refrain from making the same remarks about you that you made about Grinstein, it is quite evident that either it was an ignorant remark, or what you said about him simply holds true for you.

cheers






I'm all in favour of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with keyboards.
User currently offlineSegmentKing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4931 times:

Now if they'll do this to the CRJs!!!

-n


User currently offlineOttoPylit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4875 times:

SHUPirate1,

Increasing seat pitch by a couple of inches does not mean you are tearing row after row of seats out. Maybe one or two rows, at most. The 738 Shuttles will be the first and easiest, given that the rows in the back were taken out to have one less flight attendant. See, you may be decreasing revenue by taking out a row or not, but you are also seeing savings in cost for less labor. And as we can see, many people want more legroom, people were thrilled when AA came out with MRTC. Now they are rethinking that and have started to default back to less legroom, which is why Delta is only adding a couple inches legroom.


User currently offlineCtbarnes From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3491 posts, RR: 50
Reply 11, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4877 times:

I'd have to see the details, but this is similar to same direction BA took in the early 80's. Do a total makeover and enhance the service expereince. The facts speak for themselves. BA transformed itself from a debt-ridden state airline with a reputation for lousy service (customers joked BA stood for "Bloody Awful") to one of the best airlines in the world. DL has definately started thinking with their head on this one.

Now if only they would stop charging for food in domestic Economy...

Let's face it, most travellers in Y are looking for the cheapest ticket available, legroom comes further down the list...

Not for this traveller. I'm willing to pay a few bucks more for a few more inches of legroom, and do. If AS is $10 more than UA on the same route, say, to ORD it's a no brainer. Plus I get a free meal (and a good one at that). AS IFE is pricy, but I can live without it.

Being shoehorned into a 757 and being forced to pay for food that used to be free is not my idea of a pleasant service experience.

Call me old fashioned or out of touch, but the major (or so-called legacy) airlines need to face up to the fact their customers expect them to be in the serivce business as well being in the transportation business. And no amount of grousing by airline employees is going to change that.

Charles, SJ



The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
User currently offlineLtbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13113 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4820 times:

Would this proposal of DL be limited to international flights only, only those a/c used in longhaul (transcon/overseas)? Or, will this be applied to all a/c that they plan to keep and need refurbishing over the next 2 years?

User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9638 posts, RR: 52
Reply 13, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4740 times:

I think it would have been best for them to copy UA with Economy Plus. Give the higher paying and more loyal elite passengers extra space, but the people that pay the dirt cheap prices can deal with the standard pitch. It increased loyalty because a lot of premiers stick with UA because of Economy Plus as they feel it is a reward for their business (rather than just a normal thing as on AA with MRTC). I think DL is trying to copy AAs model too much. I know that UAs style of bankruptcy is no better but still I remember a while ago that they were saying that they saw AA as a long term viable carrier, even though CO and NW are doing far better. Hopefully they will intensly market the increased seat pitch, better IFE, food and seat comfort so they can charge a premium for it.

At least they are trying. Sitting around and doing nothing with their product will not help them at all. If they change their stuff around, they will give themselves an opportunity to benefit. Of course 30 inch pitch like Airtran could be a good change to. We will have to wait and see if the changes they make are the right ones. I don't want to be an armchair CEO and condemn them because at least they are trying.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineBaw716 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2028 posts, RR: 27
Reply 14, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 4650 times:

This is not a bad idea if it is part of the overhaul of the Delta product. If they are pursuing the passenger who will spend the extra bucks for the space and amenitites, then there is an argument for these actions. The problem is this: where is the cash coming from to pay for it?


David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 4453 times:

"I have a great idea...we're not making money with more seats on our planes, so we're going to take seats OUT of our planes, leaving us with less passengers on our planes, and thus reducing revenue, and increasing losses!"-Gerald Grinstein, obviously having a bout of idiocy...

I'm no fan of Delta, but the seat pitch increase simply isn't going to help the balance sheet, if you ask me...not until they get their customer service in order, at the very least...


Actually, removing seats that are already empty has no affect on the bottom line. The best size aircraft across the board for todays markets is actually 96 seats with a few exceptions in high density routes.


User currently offlineBwc1976 From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 194 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 4403 times:

This is what I've been thinking/hoping they might consider ever since they started Song. Like maybe they've basically been using Song as a testbed for enhancements/improvements before rolling them out across the whole fleet.

User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 4333 times:

I don't think UA's Economy+ product has done them as much as good as AA's MRTC. Getting E+ on UA is almost entirely random, you can get an E+ seat even if you paid the lowest possible fare, if that's all that's left when you check in, also if you just turn up at the gate, even if you paid full fare and have super Platinum status, if the flights full and everyone's checked in, you get the crappy seat down the back.

I'm very pleased DL have recognised the shortcomings in their product, especially internationally. They are after all competing with other airlines that provide better food, better cabin comfort and better IFE to all their passengers. If they want to be competitive, they have to keep up.


User currently onlineGSPSPOT From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3036 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4160 times:

I came in late on this thread, but BRAVO, Ctbarnes and WindowSeat!! Well said. A great many passengers feel the way we do.


Finally made it to an airline mecca!
User currently offlineOrd From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 1382 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3891 times:

"Would this proposal of DL be limited to international flights only, only those a/c used in longhaul (transcon/overseas)? Or, will this be applied to all a/c that they plan to keep and need refurbishing over the next 2 years?"

From what I read this will be applied to all Delta aircraft.


User currently offlineUltrapig From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 585 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3888 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Here is a question-Assume it were logistically possible and not too confusing-

Suppose Delta divded the cabin from front to back with pitches ranging from 35-31. Customers would pay the lowest fare for the seats in the back with the smallest leg room- and regardless of fare type would pay a $10 premium for each extra one inch.

If this were done do you think people would pay extra for extra pitch? Which sections would sell out first?

This would be the true way to tell if people were willing to pay more for more money.

My guess is that virtually everyone would opt for the chepaest seats


User currently offlineOrd From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 1382 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3872 times:

"I don't think UA's Economy+ product has done them as much as good as AA's MRTC."

Based on what I know Economy+ has performed better than AA's MRTC. MRTC has already been eliminated on some fleets, and AA is evaluating taking it away completely because it is not making money. I thought I read they gained $50 million in revenue on the planes where they put more seats back in. Economy+, on the other hand, has served its purpose and was/is being expanded to all aircraft including international.


User currently offlineWindowSeat From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1312 posts, RR: 57
Reply 22, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3846 times:



Ultrapig,

Product differentiation dictates that there needs to be a perceived difference which will benefit the passengers in some way shape or form. The difference in 1" seat pitch is...er...1". In short, not much. Not only that, it'll be a pricing nightmare to price these various class types, with one inch incremental seat pitches. It would cost money to do the refit in the first place and you can only imagine the chaos when a modified aircraft has an equipment change and is replaced with a non-modified one.

So, all in all, airlines decided that yes, they would offer something "in-between" business and economy and hence the premium economy and economy plus concepts were born. There is huge product differentiation between the three products and perceived as such. However, it is a niche market and hence you will not find loads of premium economy seats...

cheers





I'm all in favour of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with keyboards.
User currently offlineIL76TD From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 289 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3814 times:

90% of economy passengers don't even know or care what seat pitch is, they know what price is, and focus on that above all else

for this reason this will not help delta at all


User currently offlineDayflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3767 times:

"I have a great idea...we're not making money with more seats on our planes, so we're going to take seats OUT of our planes, leaving us with less passengers on our planes, and thus reducing revenue, and increasing losses!"-Gerald Grinstein, obviously having a bout of idiocy...

I'm no fan of Delta, but the seat pitch increase simply isn't going to help the balance sheet, if you ask me...not until they get their customer service in order, at the very least...


You obviously dont get it. Delta will be increasing customer service and in-flight service. Additional revenue will be generated because people will like the better service and be willing to pay a few bucks more to get it rather than settling for peanuts on AirTran in a 30" pitch seat.

For example, if I can get much better service for $5 more per one way ticket, great. $5 over 150 seats is $750; over 1000 flights that's a lot of revenue per day. $750,000 PER DAY for 180 days = $135,000,000 in the coffers. Thats enough to pay cash for a 7e7 PLUS a 717.







One Nation Under God
25 UA744Flagship : Economy Plus is doing very well for United. United is selling Economy Plus upgrades on its EasyCheck-in units for passengers traveling in Economy Minu
26 WindowSeat : UA744Flagship, I know for a fact that there are people who will put their money where mouth is, when they demand more seat pitch and a better-than-ec
27 Jrlander : I think the argument that Delta's going to try to make, whether you agree with it or not, is similar to Starbuck's concept. Starbuck's charges a bit m
28 WindowSeat : Jrlander, Perception IS reality. All Delta needs to do is change their perception in people's minds. There's nothing fundamentally wrong nor differen
29 Kim777fan : I could see Delta doing it because the difference would be there for everyone to see and measure. Starbucks marketing their coffee as a "premium" prod
30 WindowSeat : Kim777fan, You could not have been more wrong about that. Starbucks is a premium coffee brand, or at least that's how they are PERCEIVED. That's what
31 Sspontak : It is not just perceived. Most people think Starbucks has a better cup of coffee. Coke is a better tasting soft drink. Delta will be a better airline
32 GSPSPOT : I, for one, would pay a premium (or, even generally higher fares) for more legroom. I remember flying on FL a while back in ecomony. I wasn't reclinin
33 Boeing7E7 : 90% of economy passengers don't even know or care what seat pitch is, they know what price is, and focus on that above all else, I disagree. Passenger
34 AgnusBymaster : Here's an idea: increase seat pitch on your international fleet and leave domestic the same. Flying overseas in a 31" pitch seat in my opinion is posi
35 Gigneil : I don't think UA's Economy+ product has done them as much as good as AA's MRTC. By all accounts, the opposite is true. N
36 Sshank : "I don't think UA's Economy+ product has done them as much as good as AA's MRTC" UA E+ works great as far as I can tell. As a 1P getting E+ is not at
37 M404 : I for one DO notice seat pitch differance. Width even more so. I hate the elbow war with my neighbor for the armrest. BUT its interesting that in a mo
38 Post contains images Flyguyclt : Ok: TWA- Seat pitch expansion. "Out of business" Eastern-Seat pitch expansion. "Out of business" Midway Part 1. Seat pitch expansion. "Out of business
39 Azjubilee : NWA's answer to added pitch is to reward their most loyal customers with liberal upgrade opportunities. When those aren't available they get seats wit
40 Ord : "NWA's answer to added pitch is to reward their most loyal customers with liberal upgrade opportunities." An upgrade on NW is worth less than other ai
41 Post contains images Flyguyclt : Have you ever flown FC on a NWA DC9? The other night comming home to CLT on an NWA DC9. The flight was booked at 16F and 70Y. Aircraft capacity was 16
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
AV 767 Economy Seat Pitch posted Mon May 22 2006 18:56:34 by LVZXV
AA 777 Economy Seat Pitch posted Thu Jan 19 2006 23:50:34 by Soaring2hi
Emirates' Economy Seat Pitch posted Wed Oct 5 2005 14:42:50 by A360
US Carriers, Economy Seat Pitch Differences posted Mon Jul 15 2002 07:17:02 by Flyboy80
SIA Trialing System To Limit Economy Seat Wastage posted Mon Jun 24 2002 19:04:35 by Singapore_Air
Airline With Worst Economy Seat Pitch posted Sat Sep 22 2001 11:25:20 by B777-777X
Delta To Improve International Economy Service posted Wed Jun 28 2006 22:58:25 by Panamair
NZ To Increase Premium Economy On 744 Fleet posted Fri Jun 16 2006 03:36:45 by NZ1
Seat Pitch - Threat To Health posted Mon Apr 4 2005 21:21:27 by ZRH
Great Seat Pitch On SQ Economy posted Sat Nov 13 2004 06:15:56 by RupesNZ