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AA Flying West  
User currently offlineAa777jr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 1772 times:

How in the world can AA be the largest airlines operating and they only serve one (NRT) destination in the Pacific. That blows me away!!!  Smile NW, UA, CO, and DL even go more places. Can anyone explain why AA is so slow to move into the Far East?

AA777jr

16 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 1743 times:

Last I checked, Hawaii was in the Pacific (and that's not even counting the Western states)  Laugh out loud


...and while Delta does serve one more Asian destination that AA, it's not Pacific.


User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 21
Reply 2, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1637 times:

Just out of curiosity, what is the other Asian destination that DL serves but AA doesn't?

And remember, AA has interest in Asia ... it served KIX and TPE, but due to the Asian economy and other issues, couldn't make either work profitably.



"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlinePROSA From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5644 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1613 times:

Just out of curiosity, what is the other Asian destination that DL serves but AA doesn't?

BOM



"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
User currently offlineAa777flyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1490 times:

Fairly simple answer. AA does not have the government authority to fly beyond NRT. This is why AA is so hot to get the ORDPVG route as they feel it would be a stepping stone to fly further east from NRT. AA has route authority also for DFWKIX and HNLNRT, however DFWKIX was not profitable and HNLNRT does not have the proper time slot where the route would be profitable. AA has asked for authority to fly to NGO from ORD, DFW and LAX but was denied the authority by the Japanese government.

And last time I checked DL only served NRT once daily from ATL?


User currently offlineIowa744fan From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 931 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1483 times:

Plus, DL only serves each of those cities once a day (777 ATL-NRT and 763 CDG-BOM) with their own aircraft. In terms of flights and seats, AA has more service to Asia than Delta (JFK-NRT, ORD-NRT, DFW-NRT 12X a week, LAX-NRT, and SJC-NRT...all with 777s). Plus they got the rights to fly from HNL to NRT.


As for why they are so far behind UA and NW, both of those carriers enjoy 5th freedom rights from Japan which plays a large part. NW particularly has taken advantage of this since from their Tokyo hub. The fifth freedom rights allows them to sell tickets to locals (up to a certain percentage of the plane...not sure how much...there is a limit, right?) who only want to fly within Asia. UA can also do this on its routes from Tokyo, as well as on its routes from HKG to SIN and SGN (future route). AA, DL, and CO don't have this advantage, although CO is allowed to codeshare on some NW routes...perhaps DL too now. CO does have an "Asian" hub in Guam though via its Continental Micronesia brand. Outside of this, their services are quite limited as well...mainly just to NRT and HKG. AA has the rights to fly into cities like HKG, TPE, etc., but they have either suspended service or have not started it.

Also, in case you are curious, the fifth freedom rights possessed by UA and NW were the result of negotiations at the end of WW2 that gave these rights to NW and Pan Am. When UA bought Pan Am's Pacific network, they inheritted these rights. Flying Tigers was also given 5th freedom, but that is now possessed by Fed Ex due to their takeover of FT.

However, if you look at American in Latin America and Europe, they are much stronger than either UA or NW (if you ignore codeshares).


User currently offlineAa777jr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1410 times:

Iowa744fan,

Thanks much for the information, please provide a link where I can read about the "5th Freedom" rights. If AA has rights to fly into HKG and TPE why haven't they resumed at least one flight a day out of SJC to those destinations. How did UA and NW get so much freedom in Asia to fly? Does the Chinese government frown on AA because it does say "American" Any info would help me.

Cheers,
AA777jr


User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 7, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1390 times:

You can google for fifth freedoms.

AA isn't operating HKG and TPE because they don't believe they can sustain the routes at this point, and certainly not from SJC. They only operated to TPE very briefly from there, and they've cut their feed significantly.

N


User currently offlineNYCAAer From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 693 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 1163 times:

The revenue on SJC-TPE was frighteningly low. I used to look at the yields before they removed it from SABRE, and I've never seen any other transpacific route AA operates with such low yields. I doubt AA would return to the SJC-TPE market. They may serve TPE in the future as a tag-on flight from some other Asian station, if authority were granted.

User currently offlineIowa744fan From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 931 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 1113 times:

AA might be able to sustain a service to HKG from ORD, but from what I have heard, the SJC "hub" just does not have the level of passengers to feed into flights to make the TPE route viable. I am a little surprised given the size of the Asian population in the entire Bay Area. You would think that many in the southern Bay Area would prefer going through SJC instead of driving to SFO.

Also, as I mentioned, Pan Am and NW were granted their 5th freedom rights after WW2 in agreements signed with Japan...when Japan couldn't really say much. UA acquired these rights in 1985 when they purchased the Pacific operations of Pan Am.

The US does have open skies with Singapore, however having a hub that far south would not really work for AA. I am not sure of the extent of the agreement between HKG and the US. UA has fifth freedom on SIN and SGN (and I believe BKK when it was operated). I am not sure how much rights they had for local traffic (it was more limited) when they did the DEL runs. I know that those flights were restricted a lot more. There was a big fuss when UA wanted to switch the aircraft from a 763 to a 744 back in the 90s. They used to park a 763 all day long at Kai Tak since the aircraft would arrive from LHR and DEL in the morning and then not leave again until early evening. The 744 that arrived from LAX would park at Kai Tak all night. By changing things, the 744 kept flying to DEL and then turned around and arrived back in HKG to do the flight to LAX, thus keeping the plane in the air and making money. However, the Indian and HK government complained and tried to limit UA to only being able to sell the equivalent number of seats as on a 763. Not sure how they eventually worked it out. Anyway, HKG has some rights with US carriers. I don't believe that S.Korea has any, but given their desire to boost Incheon as an Asian hub, and its location up north like NRT, it could have potential is AA could work out deals with them. However, AA does not codeshare with either Korean or Asiana, so that could be difficult.



User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1039 times:

AA isn't operating HKG and TPE because they don't believe they can sustain the routes at this point

Not exactly true on the former. The reasons that ORD-HKG is a no-go for now is pilot contract/availability using the 772ER. Should see it launch next yr.




HKG has some rights with US carriers. I don't believe that S.Korea has any

um, S.Korea has an Open Skies agreement with the USA  Big grin


User currently offlineAa777jr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1035 times:

If I suggested a flight to SJC-TPE the only reason I did was its a shorter distance than any other hubs AA has (cept maybe SFO or LAX) the flight could originate in DFW or ORD and connect.



User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1030 times:

AA doesnt have an SFO hub; and anyways, SJC is an QSF co-terminal along with SFO.

User currently offlineKkfla737 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1033 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1012 times:

If I'm not mistaken, AA had some Pacific routes prior to the 1975 route swap with Pan Am which gave AA some Carribean routes in exchange for AA's Pacific routes.

User currently offlineTcttx From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 219 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 1006 times:

Doesn't AA still have authority for the SEA/BOS-NRT routes? Though AA discontinued SEA-NRT and never began BOS-NRT, doesn't AA still have the authority (though not the slots)?

User currently offlineJmy007 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 598 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 970 times:

I believe AA still holds Stl-Nrt route autority as well (From TW)
But I don't think we will ever see that happen.



Cookies are the Gateway pastry. They lead to Éclairs and Bear Claws.
User currently offlineIowa744fan From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 931 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 914 times:

um, S.Korea has an Open Skies agreement with the USA

I stand corrected. Thanks ConcordeBoy. I guess that AA or someone could start a hub there, but I doubt it would be close to as profitable as NRT.

AA777jr,

In your defense, AA also operated SJC-TPE at one time, so your listing is perfectly valid in my opinion.


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