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Could WN Come To BOS?  
User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7558 posts, RR: 23
Posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2542 times:

While there have been several threads regarding the possibility of US shutting down by Feb. 2005 and about what airlines could either expand or set up shop at US' hubs should that come to pass; but one question that hasn't been asked, at least not to my knowledge, is who will pick up the void at BOS? Although not a full-blown hub for US, BOS is clearly a focus city for them.

Could US' possible demise clear the way for WN to come and set up shop in Terminal B? Among existing LCCs at BOS, I don't think that B6, FL and TZ (assuming that they don't downgrade to just charters) will, at least initially, be able to pick up some of the slack.

With UA still in Chapter 11 and DL going into Chapter 11, that leaves AA as the sole legacy carrier that has a prominent presence at BOS (I believe that BOS is a focus city for AA as well) but is not in Chapter 11 at this time.

Back to the question at hand, should US go, could WN come to BOS?

Any thoughts?


"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSWAFA30 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2525 times:

Anything's possible but to date quite a bit of time, energy, and money have gone into marketing MHT and PVD as BOS alternatives. How do you scrap all of that and then focus your attention on BOS?

User currently offlineS12PPL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2515 times:

If I recall correctly from reading past posts on this subject, WN either did try BOS, or explored BOS, and found it was not cost effective for them. Something along those lines I believe.

User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7558 posts, RR: 23
Reply 3, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2469 times:

Anything's possible but to date quite a bit of time, energy, and money have gone into marketing MHT and PVD as BOS alternatives. How do you scrap all of that and then focus your attention on BOS?

Some could've said the same thing about BWI vs. PHL but guess what happened? BWI was not scrapped due to WN coming to PHL.

MHT & PVD will always still have their own market. Besides, NOWHERE did I post that WN would cease MHT & PVD operations in favor of BOS. BOS would be in addition to. One needs to keep in mind that MHT and PVD aren't always convenient airports for people living the Greater Boston area and the lower North Shore region.

If I recall correctly from reading past posts on this subject, WN either did try BOS, or explored BOS, and found it was not cost effective for them. Something along those lines I believe.

Was that before or after WN decided to come to PHL?

Was that before or after B6 came to BOS?

Was that before FL started to add more non-stop cities to/from BOS?

Was that before or after US filed for Chapter 11 the first time?

Prior to a year ago, who would've thought that WN would choose PHL?

Everyone, myself included, thought that if WN was coming to PA; they would've went to ABE as opposed to PHL.

After 30 years of saying, 'No' WN has even pondered coming to DFW, as a means to compliment not replace its DAL operation.

In a nutshell, with WN anything's possible.




"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineZrs70 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 3222 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2463 times:

As I've stated before, I'd love to see WN come to Worcester!


14 year airliners.net vet! 2000-2013
User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2453 times:

Southwest in BOS....... No and never.

It's too close to Manchester, which they already serve....just 30 miles away...

.. and the slightest weather delay throws the whole airport into turmoil. Even on bright sunny days, quick trurns are very hard to do.

Its just not a good fit into their system and business plan.

Now, I would like to see them add Portland, Maine. With Eagle pulling out and very limited 'big jet' service.. that would be a great add. Shoot, just a PWM and PHL flight would fill planes.

[Edited 2004-10-11 18:57:10]


"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineZrs70 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 3222 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2443 times:

I don't agree with the "Too close to MHT" point of view. After all, LAX is close to BUR and SNA, SJC is close to OAK, etc.

I do agree that PWM would be great.



14 year airliners.net vet! 2000-2013
User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7558 posts, RR: 23
Reply 7, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2418 times:

It's too close to Manchester, which they already serve....just 30 miles away...

According to my Rand McNally road Atlas, Manchester, NH is listed as 58 miles from Boston. Besides, that didn't stop WN from serving both HOU and IAD.



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 8, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2413 times:

PHLBOS-

You asked what people thought, now don't get out the fine toothed comb to find fault in what they say. I've worked at Logan, I worked for an airline that held the number one slot for departures and arrivals by two fold for several years, I've seen what the slightest weather delay will do for hours after a storm has passed, I've seen taxi times of an hour and half on a SUNNY DAY.....BOS is just a BAD fit into the SW route system and business plan. Most people in New England will drive the distance to MHT or PVD to get on a Southwest flight if it saves them the money.



"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 21
Reply 9, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2373 times:

Comparing BOS-MHT to PHL-BWI is apples and oranges.


"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlineIowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4433 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2368 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

that didn't stop WN from serving both HOU and IAD.

WN doesn't fly into IAD, I assume you mean IAHBig grin Smile


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2363 times:

that leaves AA as the sole legacy carrier that has a prominent presence at BOS

Not for long.

Unless something drastic were to occur; DL isn't gonna leave that pretty new terminal to the vultures.


User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7558 posts, RR: 23
Reply 12, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2336 times:

EMBQA,

I wouldn't necessarily call having an answer to nearly every past reason as towards why WN hasn't/won't come to BOS finding fault in everyone's comment; however, given the current situation w/US one does need to think 'outside the box' a bit before answering. Besides, Zrs70 also pointed out that the close WN airport station proximity reason for not setting up shop doesn't hold water.

But so far (thanks for everyone's input, by the way) I have only seen past reasons for WN not choosing BOS. If I posted this thread over a year ago, most if not all these listed reasons would stand in their own right. However, one needs to look at few things that have since come to light:

1. Due to WN's ignoring the JFK/LGA/EWR market altogether in favor of ISP (probably for the same reasons they presently passed on BOS); they saw B6 come out of nowhere and florish out of JFK.

2. Because WN never set up a station at DFW, FL has been recently expanding to a point where DFW is becoming another focus city for them. All of FL's non-stop routes except ATL are to/from other WN cities. With WN looking into the possibility of setting up shop at some of the ex-DL gates, means that the Dallas-Fort Worth long-distance market is getting too big for them to ignore.

3. One of WN's primary rivals, US, may not survive beyond the first quarter of 2005. US' venerability (perceived or otherwise) a year ago may have very well been the reason why WN went against their conventional wisdom and decided to come to PHL instead of the more seemingly-logical ABE. FYI, ABE is about 60 miles north of PHL; roughly the same distance as MHT is from BOS.

Like BOS, PHL is also known for delays especially due to weather. Even on a clear day, I have seen 25 to 30 planes line up for take-off at PHL at one time. Everyone thought that the delays (weather and otherwise) at PHL would've stopped WN from even considering going there... it didn't. However, I do believe that WN may have 'factored' that in when they set up their flight schedules times in & out of PHL. I've flown on their PHL-PVD route several times this year. Even on a rainy day the flight has always arrived early.

Side note: BOS' Runway 14/32 project is very similar in design and concept to PHL's 5-year-old Runway 8-26. Whether (no pun intended) the new Runway 14/32 (if built) will help alievaite delays at BOS remains to be seen.

To clarify the point of my initially posting this thread; given the current situation with US as well as other struggling carriers; could (not necessarily saying would) WN set in BOS and make it work. At present, the only reasons I could see them in BOS not would be either because they aren't interested or they won't have enough planes to accomodate every ex-US market opportunity that becomes available.

Edit:

Thanks for the correction Iowaman. I did indeed mean IAH.

Comparing BOS-MHT to PHL-BWI is apples and oranges.

Ssides,

I beg to differ on that one. Despite being about 90 miles from PHL, many Delaware Valley residents (even those that live north of Philly) have utilized BWI because of the difference in fares. Prior to WN coming to PHL, it was estimated that at nearly half of the cars parked at the BWI lots were from southeastern PA or New Jersey.

Ah Concordeboy, when you quoted me, you left out one important line (omission shown in bold below)

that leaves AA as the sole legacy carrier that has a prominent presence at BOS (I believe that BOS is a focus city for AA as well) but is not in Chapter 11 at this time.


[Edited 2004-10-11 20:46:44]


"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26812 posts, RR: 75
Reply 13, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2304 times:

I think WN will probably leave BOS for B6. Jetblue already has LGB, OAK and FLL flights from there and will probably expand. HP also flies BOS-LAX, so that would add competition on a likely route for WN. They like MHT and PVD, and are expanding both, so never say never but not now


Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2219 times:

WN avoids airports that are delay prone, ATL, SFO (they used to serve it, but the delays got too bad), LGA, IAD, JFK, EWR and BOS are examples. They are doing fine out of MHT and PVD, so I don't think that BOS is even on their radar.

User currently offlineAccess-Air From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1940 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2174 times:

Southwest Airlines serves Providence, Rhode Island as an alternative to serving over crowded Boston Logan.....
According to SWA its just as handy as BOS.....Southwest's philosophy is to stay out of major busy airports and concetrate on secondary airports, the usual reason being is that the bigger airprots have too many delays that would havea systemwide effect on their operations...plain and simple...
No need for big testimonials or a written thesis. It seems that eveyone thinks they have to over analize everything on here....Look at things a littl emore simplistically and maybe we wouldnt have threads on here that are 800 responses regarding very obvious subjects.

Access-Air



Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
User currently offlineRob2507 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 168 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2159 times:

An article in USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/today/sky.htm#airtran) today said that FL would move agressively to fill any void left by the demise of U.

User currently offlinePlanespotting From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3539 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2075 times:

Right now, as far as airports go, i would not discount any airport at all as a canidate for southwest expansion. Especially one with a market like BOS, (if and when US goes under). When that happens, there will be many people who willl be shuttle-less, and southwest could very well open up BOS-PHL and BOS-BWI with a bunch of flights per day (a bunch meaning, like a ton...haha). There is a heavy demand for flights like that, and although the 10 minute turns are long gone, the 20 and 30 and 45 min turns are still very viable and could work well to our advantage were we to move into that sort of market.


Do you like movies about gladiators?
User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7558 posts, RR: 23
Reply 18, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2074 times:

An article in USA Today http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/today/sky.htm#airtran today said that FL would move agressively to fill any void left by the demise of U.

There was also a press release (and I believe that an earlier a.net thread picked up on this) that in response to the profit losses attributed due to the hurricanes that hit Florida in the last two months that FL was delaying delivery of some its new 73Gs. Prior to this press release, I too would've thought that FL would getting ready to aggressively expand its routes and fleet.

In light of the USA Today article you posted, I wonder if Joe Leonard may be delaying the 73G deliveries in favor of an order for more 717s. Not all of FL's routes (present & future) need the range of the 73Gs; plus the production backlog of the 717 (due to currently low demand) is not as lengthy as the 737.

Rob2507,

Thanks for the info. I do agree that if FL and B6 aggressively expand following US' demise, there wouldn't be a need for WN to come to BOS.

Speaking of FL, another oddity I discovered this past week. Effective this November FL is reducing the number of PHL-BOS flights from 4/5 per day to 3 per day (I wonder if the planes used on the discontinued flights will be used for the future Sarasota flights?) while US is either expanding or has already expanded their number of flights for the same route to 15 per day... all mainline with one of the r/t flights being served with a 757.

If this were any other time and if US wasn't in dire straits, I'd say they're trying to snuff FL out of the PHL-BOS market; but given the current circumstances, I believe that US may be reinacting Custer's Last Stand.



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineHlywdCatft From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 5321 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2060 times:

This might be part of the reason why SOuthwest doesn't want to come to Boston



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Southwest hates long lines


btw, where does KBOS rank on the worst airports list now? It used to always be tie or battle with KDTW, but now that KDTW built the Midfield Terminal it went to one of the best airports.


User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7558 posts, RR: 23
Reply 20, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2045 times:

where does KBOS rank on the worst airports list now?

Another equally valid question would be, where will BOS rank in terms of delays following US' possible demise?

Granted the void won't be as large as it would be at PHL, PIT and CLT but nonetheless there will be a void.



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineCloud4000 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 641 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2012 times:

I agree with Zrs70, I can see them coming to Worcester. This will give the greater Boston area with a choice of four airports, including BOS, MHT and PVD.


Boston, USA
User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7558 posts, RR: 23
Reply 22, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 1987 times:

WN at Worcester would be very wishful thinking for me; my brother's house in Sturbridge is a lot closer to ORH than BDL or PVD.

As I recall, one reason (probably not the only reason) WN declined ORH a few years ago was because of delays associated with fog due to its high elevation of the airport. In addition, roadway access to ORH stinks. Although there were plans to build a connector highway from the airport to the Mass Pike (I-90), the loss of commercial service (see next paragraph) may have scuttled the project.

Since US Express already shut down ORH operations over a year ago, ORH has already felt the impact to a degree. US' possible shutdown next February will have no effect on ORH now.

BED (Hanscom) would be a good choice for WN in terms of location and operations but I'm not sure whether the runways would have to be expanded or widened to accommodate a 737. PLUS, given the grief and protests that the NIMBYs gave Shuttle America and US Airways Express over the years; they would sooner torch BED than have WN set up shop there.



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineEi2ksea From Ireland, joined Jul 2004, 578 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1978 times:

As has been stated, the WN model revolves around the 25min turnaround, in a place like BOS, an airline can spent 25mins holding, never mind taxiing to and from runways. The effect of this is that it would greatly affect its schedule efficiency and aircraft utilisation. Much the same as with Ryanair which is particularly senstive to congested city airports in Europe.

A place like PVD or MHT means they can pull off the turnarounds with ease as well as quick taxi times etc etc. It also means that Southwest can quietly build a presence in an area such as New England without causing a fares war which would be damaging to all involved. Southwest have been known to surprise us however, as PHL expansion displays.

Regards
Ph



Next Flight: DUB-BOS (EI), BOS-DEN-PDX (SWA), SEA-BOS (AS)
User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6826 posts, RR: 32
Reply 24, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1921 times:

I think to some degree that people are making a bit too much of BOS's supposed delays. While they were indeed quite bad in 2000, post-9/11 cutbacks have reduced delays at Logan substantially. In August, for example, Logan was more on-time than FLL, LAS, PHL, MCO, and TPA -- all served by WN. Moreover, a hypothetical shutdown of US Airways also frees up quite a bit of runway capacity, considering US and US Express operate over 100 daily departures from BOS.

Many bring up WN's decision to pull out of SFO, but again, market realities are far different today from what they were in early 2001 when that decision was announced. Arguably, if they had waited things out at SFO by a year or so, they might very well have stayed in that market given United's broad systemwide pulldown of capacity post-9/11 (of course, there was no way of predicting those events and their impact on the entire industry). It is relevant to recall the fact that PHL was a shocker to nearly everyone who follows Southwest.

It has been my belief since 2002 that BOS would be a good market for Southwest in the event that several (at least four or five) gates were to become available. I believe that the lack of sufficient available gates in an acceptable facility was an important reason for WN to stay out of BOS -- one need only look at FL's Terminal D facilities and their difficulties in getting additional gates as confirmation. And Massport even encouraged the airlines to shift traffic away from BOS in the past in response to growing delays.

The number of potential market opportunities from BOS makes service by WN a very compelling prospect -- if the facilities were to become available. And service from BOS would only serve to complement their service at PVD, MHT, and BDL; they serve four airports in the L.A. metro area, two in the S.F. Bay area, two in South Florida, etc.


25 Kcrwflyer : Why would WN go to ABE? Do 1 million pax live in Allentown?
26 Post contains links PHLBOS : Why would WN go to ABE? Do 1 million pax live in Allentown? Kcrwflyer, Has WN chosen ABE over PHL, it would've attracted both people from the PHL area
27 ChrisNH : This is quite an interesting topic. As a MHT observer and an observer of the New England aviation/airline landscape, I first have to start with this q
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