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Avianca To Arab "sheik" Or Brazilian Magnate?  
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3491 times:

Should Avianca go to the Arab investor (under pressure from the pilots union) or to Brazilian oil-business magnate Mr. Efromovich, who owns Brazilian regional airline Oceanair? It's known that Mr. Efromovich would implement a business-oriented restructuring of the company - that's why he is so feared by the pilots union.

The pilots of Colombian airline Avianca approved a plan over the weekend to buy the company along with an "unnamed Arab investor" in an attempt to prevent an officially approved purchase offer from a Brazilian magnate.
Colombia's pilot union ACDAC met with representatives of the unnamed investor in Dallas, Texas, on Saturday. They approved a possible bid of $120 million to $130 million for the airline, which is emerging from bankruptcy.
The plan would give the pilots 51 percent of shares and the Arab investor the other 49 percent. (Avianca is currently held 50-50 by Colombian conglomerate Valores Bavaria and the country's Coffee Growers' Federation).

The airline said in August it could get out of bankruptcy by mid-October after winning approval from its creditors for a restructuring plan based on its sale to Brazil's Sinergy. But the pilots are determined to stop Sinergy's offer, which they say does not guarantee the airline's future. Sinergy, which is controlled by businessman Mr Efromovich, wants Avianca to complement its Brazilian regional carrier, Ocean Air. Efromovich's company has offered to make a $64 million cash injection into Avianca and assume its debt of about $300 million.


60 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFokker50 From Colombia, joined Jun 2004, 359 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3465 times:

Well, I think that AV should go for Efromovich's ofer, wich is the best of all.

Fokker50



Bogota, the South american gateway!
User currently offlineRCS763av From Colombia, joined Jun 2004, 4395 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3441 times:

Well...who knows....maybe they should go for Efromovich..I also read on the news that he is now looking at buying AIRES, the other airline of the Santodomingo Group.


Les escribo desde el frío de mi verde altiplano.
User currently offlineMATURRO727 From Colombia, joined Apr 2004, 304 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3427 times:

Hey !


well, it depends, the arab offer seemd to be better, altough would be useful to know if those $120/130 covers AV debts, if it does would ovbiously better (in terms of money) to go with the arabs, but if the arabs don't cover the debts, they must go with sinergy's group.

Now, we need to see the advantages and disadvantages of both parts.

REGARDS

MATURRO727





User currently offlineLX23 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 347 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3425 times:

Somehow, I'm not to keen on the Sinergy offer...a $64 million injection isnt really a lot...in my eyes, that offer will just help them become a regional airline working for Ocean. I know AV is not great and all of that...but still...

User currently offlineAV757 From Colombia, joined Apr 2004, 660 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3423 times:
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You should see the same thread topic by wimpycol at this link which is allready in progress, you will find there on my response a direct link to the chapter 11 restructuring plan for AV in spanish, if you want to read the 190 pages you will probably see why the Sinergy group offer is no good.

There are no guarantees on the debt made by this group and also they are basically selling the airline for US $64,000,000.

The pilots offer US $120,000,000 and their pension debt of US $64,000,000 for the company.

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1773035/4/

AV757


User currently offlineRCS763av From Colombia, joined Jun 2004, 4395 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3403 times:

LX23: Why do you say AV is not great? Do you mean like a company or like an airline?


Les escribo desde el frío de mi verde altiplano.
User currently offline757MDE From Colombia, joined Sep 2004, 1753 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3392 times:

Synergy offer "fixes it all" BUT the Pilot's pensions in the future (not enough safety on that point), and the biggest debt AV has now is Caxdac...

Caxdac = Pension

I don't know what the "Sheik" really offers, but Synergy offer isn't really appealing to me, I'm not like I totally disagree but "nunca me entró del todo"...
If the Pilots want the Sheik, it must be for something, the most affected if the Airline went down would be themselves and I don't think they would do such a thing without proper arguments (just please try to do no more operation turtlebolt because the affected one there is the customer... and they have nothing to do).



I gladly accept donations to pay for flight hours! This thing draws man...
User currently offlineTavong From Colombia, joined Jul 2001, 835 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3380 times:

Well i surely would like to know better the proposal of the "sheik" first and complete...at this time is too dark for anyone (excepting the pilots) to make an opinion.....

Gus
SKBO



Colombian coffee, the best...take a cup and you will see how delicious it is.
User currently offlineME Avn Fan From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 9, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3349 times:

The identity of "the Sheikh" should be revealed, so as to allow a comparison with "the Grande" !

User currently offlineRCS763av From Colombia, joined Jun 2004, 4395 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3332 times:

Well...what I have read is that the Sheik will give 51% of the company to the pilots. Thats why they say the offer is better...because they will control the airline....if this goes through, imagine those salaries....


Les escribo desde el frío de mi verde altiplano.
User currently offlineSumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2559 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3322 times:

Avianca's financial situation is much rosier than when Mr Efromovich first made a bid for the company. $64 m cash injection is not much in the grand scheme of things, but there is more than that in his offer. I do think that he cares passionately about keeping the company viable and expanding it.
The "Sheik" may offer more money, but for him it'll just be another business. Of course the pilots will be happy at -in theory- having a 51% stake. But the pilots union is not known for understanding efficiency and prooductivity very well, and so their preferred arrangement, akin to having children in charge of a sweet shop, might be less healthy for them in the long run than thay think.

About pensions, The OceanAir offer guarantees them in a well structured plan, so long as the company survives. There is no reason why it should not, indeed expand by being run in an efficient way. Indeed, it should grow given the potential that Colombia and Latin America offer.


User currently offlineMATURRO727 From Colombia, joined Apr 2004, 304 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3308 times:

Hey!



well, altough we don't know much about "sheik", it seemd to be a good offer, now sinergy's group or better Mr. Efromovich it's caracterized for his good investments and decisions, he pick a company in bankrupt and he injects money for company salvation, then later the company becomes a rentabele business, or at least this is what i herd about Mr. Efromovich.

so... who know's... now Mr. RCS763av: do you really think that AV pilots will rice their own salary ??? i don't know i have herd that they are in a bad situation so i don't think anyone will try to do somthing bad for the airline, at these time AV now only need to save money so i think AV pilots need and will help


Thank's


MATURRO727






User currently offlineFokker50 From Colombia, joined Jun 2004, 359 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3305 times:

Well...what I have read is that the Sheik will give 51% of the company to the pilots. Thats why they say the offer is better...because they will control the airline....if this goes through, imagine those salaries....

Well RCS763av, i think (not only me), that this hypotesis is kind of absurd, also we all know that now in this moment AV is passing by big finanical problems, so is ridicolus that the AV pilots rice their salaries, because iof they make that could happen the same thing that happened to VX.
If Sheik, give the 51% of the company to the pilots that would be an oddisey to the passengers, because the AV pilots are problemantic, only because of their new paper airline Fenix Airlines, also why do they need to airlines in Colombia that compete theirselves??? think on that..............  Wink/being sarcastic

Also I think that what Maturro says is true, altough we don't know much about "sheik", it seemd to be a good ofer.

Fokker50



Bogota, the South american gateway!
User currently offlineMiamiair From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3302 times:

Pilots know how to fly airplanes; not run a complex operation such as an airline. Any pilots' union would love to own 51% of an airline, but what about the interests of the maintenance technicians, the ramp agents, reservations people? They have no say in the matter because their pockets aren't deep enough. What is needed is an un-biased evaluation of the situation and based on that evaluation a choice made as to who to go with.

User currently offlineAV757 From Colombia, joined Apr 2004, 660 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3289 times:
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Pilots may know how to fly airplanes, but when it comes to airline management or business financials that is not in their league. The way things are going right now I do not see how the Sinergy group is going to save AV, when it does not give any economical guarantees for the debt, only verbal promises that he will pay his debt if the company survives and stays in business. And much less with the financials they have showed in their restructuring plan presented to the court in NYC.

Here is the link to the restructuring plan presented by AV.

http://www.avianca.com.co/QuienesSomos/Boletines/PlanRestructuracion.htm

From the news that has leaked out; the company will belong to 51% of the pilots and 49% to the Arabian Financial group, the airline will be managed by a financial team handled by the new Arabian investor and CAXDAC, and the new administration will be managed by the consulting team that was created by ACDAC for the purpose of chapter 11 proceedings who in due time will come to audit the company and elaborate a realistic plan of operation with a new and serious management team.

The pilots’ pension fund, CAXDAC the mayor creditor of the chapter 11 proceedings is going to be the actual owner of the 51% of the company not the pilots union as all the press is announcing.

AV757


User currently offlineRcs763av From Colombia, joined Jun 2004, 4395 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3237 times:

"MR. MATURRO": Well...I think they wil RICE their salaries, its typical here in Colombia. And i dininh HERD it, im just saying. Check your spelling.

Why would they care if AV goes bankrupt...theres nice little Fenix and P5 to give them a job afterwards!

Fokker50: Ummm....did dragacol employees care that the company would go bankrupt....A guy who carried logs around made $2 million a month....



Les escribo desde el frío de mi verde altiplano.
User currently offlineA300AA From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 394 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3230 times:

Airlines beeing owned by their employees or unions are definetly a bad decision.Pilots, and ground personnell knows how to fligh and how to work, but not how to manage, even if they put somebody with experience, they will have vote on the board of directors, remember UA.

User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 18, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3231 times:

I stand by Efromovich! For me it doesnt look good if pilots start to put their nose into the airline's management strategy. Look at RG, and its previous management structure through the Ruben Berta Foundation (which includes representatives of staff categories, cinluding pilots) and you will reach and explanation for the financial situation of RG nowadays!

I hope, in the interest of Colombia in general and AV in particular, that AV goes to Efromovich.

Check out below pics of Oceanair (C1), regional airline in Brazil owned by oil-business magnate Efromovich:


View Large View Medium

Photo © Bernardo Andrade
View Large View Medium

Photo © Fabio Laranjeira





[Edited 2004-10-12 23:49:43]

User currently offlineFokker50 From Colombia, joined Jun 2004, 359 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3223 times:

Well RCS763av:
It's only my opinion, also, as you said I think they wil RICE their salaries, its typical here in Colombia, this is not the situation, pilots as AV757 knows that if they make that, the airline will go under as VX. Later, when AV gets out from the chapter 11, they can think in it, but now I don't think so.

Fokker50



Bogota, the South american gateway!
User currently offline757MDE From Colombia, joined Sep 2004, 1753 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3219 times:

Remember AV won't be owned by the Pilots themselves, but by CAXDAC, and CAXDAC has or at least will have a skilled managing team if the time comes.

Dragacol is a very different thing, the amount of corruption there is just unbelievable (even for Colombian standards), I don't think it's the same in AV.
Not only Dragacol, but millionaire pension at Foncolpuertos...and the list goes on.

I don't think they'll rise their wages that much as you say, CAXDAC could be in possesion of 51% of the airline if the deal is made, but it's not like they can do whatever they want, and if such a rise is ever tried to be made they won't get along that easy.

[Edited 2004-10-13 00:02:34]


I gladly accept donations to pay for flight hours! This thing draws man...
User currently offlineRCS763av From Colombia, joined Jun 2004, 4395 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3219 times:

I just hope AV goes to Efromovich.

I dont want a Varig, A Delta, or a Sabena.

I couldnt stand to see AV die because of bad management.



Les escribo desde el frío de mi verde altiplano.
User currently offlineA300AA From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 394 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3208 times:

The best for AV , really is to keep their unions, away from management, and ownership.
I think Efromovich will be better offer. At least he knows how to manage big companies.


User currently offlineAV757 From Colombia, joined Apr 2004, 660 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3183 times:
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RCS763av If you can not stand to see AV die because of bad management, you already forgot what happened to ACES under Juan Emilio Posada's bad management policies during the Alianza Summa fiasco.

And if it were not for chapter 11, AV would have gone the same way Aces did and would have disappeared already. If AV is to survive and recover no matter who will buy or own the company it will require the mandatory change of the actual management group of Juan Emilio Posada and his gang. Sinergy Group with the Colombian Coffee Growers Federation insist on keeping his administration and management policies intact.

AV757


User currently offlineTavong From Colombia, joined Jul 2001, 835 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3156 times:

"Why would they care if AV goes bankrupt...theres nice little Fenix and P5 to give them a job afterwards!"

In fact if P5 or Fenix can do them jobs why there are still thee INTER pilots unemplyed at this time? And how they can grow so quickly that the would need to hire the hipotetical "ex-AV" pilots???? I think that there won't be any P5 of Fenix giving jobs if AV goes bankrupt.

Anyway has AV757 already said the plans is to CAXDAC to have the 51% of the airline but CAXDAC does not mean UNION (anyway i don't think unios are so bad has someone post there) and i don't think that they would put AV in the path to bankrupcy since there won't be "mama Colombia" to support them if they fail.

Anyway at this time we still don't know wich plan will be better.

Gus
SKBO



Colombian coffee, the best...take a cup and you will see how delicious it is.
25 MATURRO727 : Hey ok, RSC763av: it's not that simple, you can't acomadate a whole airline as AV(by the way the biggest in Colombia) in a little paper airline like F
26 Wimpycol : Hello AV757 Thanks for the info! Do you have more details about this Sheik?? Do we know nothing about him! I can't beleive this... regards Willem Albe
27 AV757 : From reply 25 ok, RSC763av: it's not that simple, you can't accommodate a whole airline as AV(by the way the biggest in Colombia) in a little paper ai
28 757MDE : It's not only that P5 and the eventual Fenix would not have enough places to hire AV's people if it went bankrupt (which by all sakes I hope not!), th
29 MATURRO727 : Hey AV757: again, thank's for your info, now, can you tell me a number of aviation uneployed people her in Colombia? now assuming that you are an AV p
30 AV757 : Yes sir I am a Boeing 757/767 pilot for AV, I have flown with AV the last 26 years. Avianca's future can only be seen if, a major and total change in
31 Bongo : AV757: Welcome to my respected users list !!
32 MATURRO727 : Hey AV757: thank's for your opinion and your point of veiw! P.S. don't worry you are already in my RR list since i read your first post !
33 Post contains images 757MDE : By the way, Inter just entered in US' "Clinton List" which hinders them from doing any kind of transaction with any US entity or citizen, any bank acc
34 RCS763av : Well, other airlines would have to take over AV´s routes. They would take the MD-83s, 757s, F-50s ad maybe 767s in and they would need pilots.
35 757MDE : Not that fast and not in enough quantity like to be a problem solver in the short term, and the unemployed Pilots need that, solutions for the short t
36 Tavong : Well, other airlines would have to take over AV´s routes. They would take the MD-83s, 757s, F-50s ad maybe 767s in and they would need pilots. HEHEHE
37 RCS763av : Im just hoping that situation never happens when im alive. Well, if pilots say they can manage it better, let them do it.
38 MATURRO727 : Hey! RCS763av: man what you just said is relly crazy! it is not that simple ! you are talking like if a new airline could replace AV in a couple hours
39 Hardiwv : Nobody gave any really reliable details of the Sheik as yet...this seems quite unsave business... If AV could secure the investment of the Brazilian m
40 ME Avn Fan : Hardiwv; as much as I would have my sympathies with the "Arab solutions", I strongly dislike these secretive manners involved. I canNOT see any proper
41 Fokker50 : Well RCS763av: For your hypotesis of the replacement of AV, here in Colombia is very hard to make that in only a couple of yrs, as my friend MATURRO s
42 Fokker50 : From the Reply #37 If the pilots could do it better, why do they not quit AV, because in the JE Posada's management is not possible to make it. If the
43 ACES320 : Has anybody in this forum tried to figure out that Avianca's trouble are not the result of Alianza Summa demise nor Posada's administrative and financ
44 RCS763av : Fokker50: You were telling me that the pilots cared about the airline and they would mange it well, now i said, ok,let them do it...why did you attack
45 MATURRO727 : Hey! RCS763av: ok you got a point there, but you really want to know why Fokker50, me and lot people more attacked your post(s)? ok... because you are
46 RCS763av : Ummm....then Fokker50 has to improve his reading comprehension. He can´t attck my post like that by not even reading it well.
47 757MDE : Has anybody in this forum tried to figure out that Avianca's trouble are not the result of Alianza Summa demise nor Posada's administrative and financ
48 Summa767 : AcesA320, I completely agree with you. AV financial troubles are not something new. In the past the airline has lost money for many years, and only ke
49 Fokker50 : Well to all, sorry for my late replies: RCS763av: Look, I'm attacking nyour posts because as MATURRO said, your posts are loosing credibility, but tha
50 MATURRO727 : Hey! I'm completely agree with ACES320, the people that are directly affected with the summa fiasco, people only see what they want to see and hear wh
51 757MDE : When you replied Has anybody in this forum tried to figure out that Avianca's trouble are not the result of Alianza Summa demise nor Posada's administ
52 AV757 : I'm completely agree with ACES320, the people that are directly affected with the summa fiasco, people only see what they want to see and hear what th
53 Fokker50 : 757MDE: Yes, you're right, you didn't did that, was ACESA320, sorry!!!!!!
54 MATURRO727 : hey Thank's again AV757, now this is completely out of topìc but i want to know wich plane is your favorite to fly, the 757 or 767 and why?, i assume
55 ME Avn Fan : In view of the point that "the Sheikh" was/is a kind of 'nick-name' of Mr Osama Bin-Lad'n it is a bit astonishing that people in Latin America do NOT
56 757MDE : Fokker50: No problem! ME_Avn_Fan: I think you're pushing things a bit far. I mean, we know anything could be possible but you're just exaggerating her
57 Fokker50 : Well, you ME avn fan: As 757MDE said you're exaggerating a bit( or too much), look, that commentary was a bit rude from your part, not saying anything
58 RCS763av : Jajaja, Al-Qaeda, typical from people who dont know us Colombians. Dont be such a paranoid! Our indian insticnts will not let us down this time! Reall
59 MATURRO727 : Hey! people maybe ME Avn Fan it's not right on the Bin Laden thing but he have a point, we should know who is this "sheik" because we don't know who i
60 757MDE : We haven't seen the face yet!, I think we'll know when the time comes, c'mon, this is not the first operation where a potential buyer doesn't want to
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