Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Airbus Answer To B744ADV  
User currently offlineSjoerd From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 361 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 7133 times:

What are the chances that if Boeing builds a B744Adv it will be countered by an other A380 aircraft, the A380-700 ? This shorter version would carry around 470 pax. It is described on this website. What are your thoughts ?


Flanders + Wallonnia + Brussels = the UNITED STATES of BELGIUM
18 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently onlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4527 posts, RR: 18
Reply 1, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6774 times:

Don't think that could be economical, as the Basic A380 has a heavier structure than needed to allow for the stretched model to be structurally
feasible.

A shrink, conversely would bring nearly all of that heavier structure to an aircraft with less seats to pay for the higher fuel burn.



The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently onlineRuscoe From Australia, joined Aug 1999, 1567 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6705 times:

It will probably all depend upon how well the 388 performs. If it is better than predicted, then maybe, but if worse than predicted, forget it.

Ruscoe


User currently offlineRj111 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6646 times:

I dunno what Airbus were thinking/smoking designing the A380's wing/structure for a stretch as supposed to a shrink.

The market for an A389 must be minute whereas the market for an A387 sized plane must be bigger than the -800's. A market which boeing will have the upper hand in should they go ahead with the 747 adv.

The only redeeming factor should the two planes happen would be commonality. Now that many major airlines have the A380 on order it may be more economical to use the A387 over the 747adv even if it will have a higher CASM. The 747adv would mean introducing a whole new aircraft type, which AFAIK will only have one derivative. An ok fleet strategy if you dont intend to order the A380, but a somewhat inefficient one if you do.

I guess Airbus have had resonable success in shrinking planes before though, the A332 and A319 spring to mind.


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 977 posts, RR: 51
Reply 4, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6589 times:

Building on what MaxQ stated, your comparing the economics of a stretched aircraft to that of a shrink. The 747-Adv will make the 747 as a whole lighter and more fuel efficent, while an increase in seats brings seat/mile cost even lower. Conversly, shrinking the A388 would make an aircraft heavier and less efficent per seat/mile. I would be *very* suprised if the A387 would have economics that would make it a serious contender without the 747-Adv in the market.

The A387 would have commonality with the A388 which is a bonus for airlines already ordering it. Problem is, the 747-Adv is tailored for the airlines who want a slightly bigger aircraft than the 744 but don't want the risk or quite the capacity of the A388. These are airlines like CX.

If Airbus has a design that would win *new* customers to the A380 family (be it A387 or A388) they would be acting on it by now. Enough A388 design work is completed for Airbus to study a derivitive, and since they are not proactively courting airlines, I don't think the A387 concept has much potential. I think the A387 went out the door when SQ demanded their noise requirements be met a


User currently offlineRIX From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1787 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6120 times:

"hat Airbus were thinking/smoking designing the A380's wing/structure for a stretch as supposed to a shrink." - an interesting question. As far as I remember, the whole idea of A3XX was VLA, a new airframe design with capacity more than the largest of proposed 747 could offer, with opportunity to grow even more. The demand on A388 is already here, as for A389 – well, this machine is going to be around during decades, ready to be stretched as soon as (if) needed. But, indeed, what if A380 was built to be more efficient starting with 450 seats (still offering basic model as a 550 seater)? Then Airbus would cover everything from present 747 market and up – 747 Adv would hardly have a chance then… By the other hand, would a “full size” double-decker (with full length widebody upper deck) be a good idea for such a “small” thing as 450 seats? Reminds rather of 736/318/335, or proposed (at least here, at a.net  Smile) 757-100 or 777-100…


User currently offlineSjoerd From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 361 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4851 times:

The A320 was shrunk succesfully by Airbus. It depends on what Airbus had in mind when it developped the wing. Commonality is a plus, but possibly also price. The A387 could be cheaper to develop than the B744Adv. A shorter version will look weird though.

The last paragraph of this web site :

http://www.airbus.com/media/a380_family.asp



Flanders + Wallonnia + Brussels = the UNITED STATES of BELGIUM
User currently offlineDeltaWings From Switzerland, joined Aug 2004, 1294 posts, RR: 17
Reply 7, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4536 times:

I know, they will stretch the A346 to compeete with the 747adv

 Smile




Homer: Marge, it takes two to lie. One to lie and one to listen.
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 977 posts, RR: 51
Reply 8, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4395 times:

The A320 was shrunk succesfully by Airbus. It depends on what Airbus had in mind when it developped the wing.

Don't forget that the A320 was initially developed as the A320-100, which we all know was lighter structually than the heavier A320-200. The A321-100/200, A319CJ were built of this platform while the regular A319/A318 feature the lighter structure.

Since the A380 doesn't have a second structural variant, a shrink has no lighter variant to fall back on.

Commonality is a plus, but possibly also price. The A387 could be cheaper to develop than the B744Adv

Cheaper to develop is one thing, cheaper to sell is another. The cheapest A380-800 is 40 million dollars more expensive than the most pricey Boeing product, the 777-300ER. If the 747-Adv is offered for roughly the same price is a 744ER, then the A387 would require a significant mark-down.


User currently offlineGreaser From Bahamas, joined Jan 2004, 1101 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4261 times:

Not only that, DFW, Boeing is gonna want to dominate this market from day 1, among the others (737, 777 type) it is the easiest and the most talked about.
Judging by Boeing's latest trend of relatively cheaper jets, i would think they would undercut any 387's prices, plus offer a newer, more efficient design, and commonality with the -E7 and 737Xs.
Airbus really has -900 going for them, not the 700. Shrinks don't work
(i,e a318, 736)



Now you're really flying
User currently offlineUal777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1556 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4058 times:

The demand for the A380 is in actuality pretty weak. Airbus has not even sold 200 yet and I am willing to bet that the ones they have sold have been heavily discounted. 250-300 aircraft sold is the ROCK bottom possible to break even on an aircraft. The development costs for a plane like the A380(which i think is a cool airplane) have got to be just huge. Airbus has no experiance with something this big. Anyway, I have the gut feeling that perhaps the A380 is a symbol of prestige, not a widely marketable aircraft like the 7E7 (which is going to sell big).


It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
User currently offlineKatanapilot From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 170 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3910 times:

^^ 'I know, they will stretch the A346 to compeete with the 747adv'

bwa ha ha ha. oh man. imagine an A347.... there would have to be a wheel on the tail to absorb all the tailstrikes  Big grin


User currently offlineRIX From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1787 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2975 times:

”The demand for the A380 is in actuality pretty weak.” - probably, yes, as long as it is being sold as a niche aircraft, which is happening right now. But, again, this thing was designed to be around for many years to come, with a big chance to be in a higher demand in future. Still, looks somewhat risky... ”a cool airplane” – an amazing machine, just look at those photos…

User currently offlineHirnie From Germany, joined May 2004, 594 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2906 times:

Regarding the A380 - orders will come in the future...

On the other thread: perhaps Airbus puts an upper deck on the A345/346 to compete with the Jumbo... HAHAH. Don`t take me to serious on this.


User currently offlineFrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3766 posts, RR: 11
Reply 14, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2811 times:

The demand for the A380 is in actuality pretty weak. Airbus has not even sold 200 yet and I am willing to bet that the ones they have sold have been heavily discounted.

The a/c is not even flying yet!
Why don't you wait until airlines actually operate it before you bash?
Oh, and 200 IS a lot for that kind of aircraft.

heavily discounted
Because you were part of the people who made the deal, right?

I hate it when people shoot in the air like that. They make themselves sound like soccer team supporters.

Airbus has no experiance with something this big.

They never had when they designed any of their airframes. Nevertheless they didn't do too bad...
And all the girls I know say that size makes up for experience...  Laugh out loud



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineUal777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1556 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2649 times:

Francoflier:

ALL orders of any large quantity, ESPECIALLY those of launch customers are heavily discounted. This is true of any aircraft. I am not an airbus hater. I love the A320 series. However, I believe that Boeing long-haul widebodies are superior to that of airbus.

Do not call me a soccer fan when you have NO evidence to prove otherwise. I am using precident as fact. What are you using?



It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
User currently offlineN1120a From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26499 posts, RR: 75
Reply 16, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2636 times:

According to Boeing, the 744ADV will potentially have a lower CASM than the A388 anyway. If the A318 was build on a light structure, why would it be considered way to heavy?


Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineAreopagus From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1369 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2566 times:

^^ 'I know, they will stretch the A346 to compeete with the 747adv'

bwa ha ha ha. oh man. imagine an A347.... there would have to be a wheel on the tail to absorb all the tailstrikes


No, they will just stretch it forward of the wing and main gear, and put a canard up front to maintain balance, as well as a beefed up nose gear. Eventually, they will produce the A348, a centipede-like plane with a set of wings for every additional fuselage barrel section the customer cares to order.


User currently offlineJlb From Denmark, joined Nov 1999, 68 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2433 times:

Does anybody know the actual wing area/wing loading of the 388 compared to the 744?

Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Airbus Answer To 7E7 A Long Way Off? posted Mon Jun 21 2004 16:37:31 by Nyc777
Airbus Answer To B7E7 posted Sat Aug 23 2003 01:09:02 by Sjoerd
Airbus Answer To New Boeing "787", posted Sun Dec 22 2002 01:40:18 by Keesje
Airbus Prepares To Deliver 3,000th A320 Family A/C posted Wed Dec 13 2006 12:58:56 by Leelaw
What Is Airbus Doing To The A380?!? posted Fri Dec 8 2006 09:11:28 by Baron95
A Big Airbus Order To Come By The End Of The Year? posted Thu Dec 7 2006 19:01:07 by RootsAir
Airbus 380 To Get Approval Next Tueday posted Wed Dec 6 2006 17:37:18 by LHStarAlliance
New Airbus Website To Promote A350XWB posted Tue Dec 5 2006 16:10:35 by Leelaw
Airbus Refuses To Rule Out State Loans On A350 posted Mon Dec 4 2006 22:07:42 by Wingnut767
AC Airbus Returns To Calgary - Smoke In Cockpit posted Tue Nov 28 2006 02:55:16 by Squigee