John From United States, joined Sep 1999, 1276 posts, RR: 4 Posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 3242 times:
Despite what some of you may believe! These ridiculous fares are putting thousands of people out of work and crippling this industry to the point of desperation! Something's gotta give here folks! As of today, I'm making LESS per hour than I did in 1988!! WTF is wrong with this picture?
VonRichtofen From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 4211 posts, RR: 30 Reply 1, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 3196 times:
I agree with you to an extent. The fares have to stabilize at some point. Even the LCC's can't survive with the ridiculously low fares around. In Canada things are settling down a bit. When an LCC enters a new market they have really low fares, but that's just to drum up initial business. For example when Jetsgo first started flying YYZ-YYC-YYC they had REALLY low fares. But now they are up to what everybody else is charging.
Hopefully things will settle down a bit in the US as well.
DfwRevolution From United States, joined Mar 2004, 7496 posts, RR: 53 Reply 2, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 3138 times:
Despite what some of you may believe! These ridiculous fares are putting thousands of people out of work and crippling this industry to the point of desperation!
*Points at WN* What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. I'm a supporter of off-shoring and I stand by that. If you can't survive, maybe you don't deserve to.
Take AA for example. Rationalizing their fleet, making payroll cuts, dealing with outrageous fuel prices, and learning to compete with LCCs have made AA a better airline than it ever has before. When it comes to today's market conditions, there are way more factors at work than just LCCs.
As of today, I'm making LESS per hour than I did in 1988!! WTF is wrong with this picture?
Boo hoo hoo
Take a trip to Ciudad Juarez before you bitch to me about how little oppurtunity you have
Miguel0881 From United States, joined Sep 2004, 59 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 3075 times:
So we all get to decide our own salaries now? Pretty soon the guy down at McDonald's will be getting $50/hour just because he feels he deserves it. If the market can't pay you what you want, find a new job. This is America after all.
Acidradio From United States, joined Mar 2001, 1545 posts, RR: 6 Reply 5, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2964 times:
Eventually, some of the airlines that are too weak to take all these low fares will collapse, prices will move up again and things will change. This is basic supply and demand economics. There is way too much supply on the market right now, which keeps the prices low. Airlines are cyclical and this happens all the time. Remember the good days when pay was more normal, hiring was constant and opportunities abounded? You have to take the good with the bad.
Lufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 1807 posts, RR: 5 Reply 6, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2951 times:
Sorry John, but they're all right.
This all comes down to supply and demand. You know, it may be actually good for the economy if you loose your job. I am not saying that to be mean. I am trying to point out to you that what is good for the economy as a whole isn't necessarily good for individual companies.
The US market sufferes from over capacity. Lately, we've seen AA, UA and CO all talk about streamling capacity. We've just had UA's press release, and CO have been switching larger aircraft to international (so more flights are operated by smaller 737s than 757s etc) and got rid of the MD-80s.
Really, what we need to see now is some more rationalisation. Maybe a UA/CO merger would do it, plus a getting rid of some capacity (probably US Airways) When that happens, load factors will increase and those companies will make modest profits. The reason is is possible for you to make what you made in 1988 is probably because in 1998 you were overpaid. Unions probably drove up your wages to levels far above your skill base. The reality is, many airline jobs can be done by just about anybody. Domestic flight attends, gate agents, baggage handlers etc.... these aren't all highly skilled jobs. International FA's need a few more skills, but the reality is, if there was some special skill here the market wouldn't be able to drive wages down. You see, the only reason it can, is because there are so many ppl out there willing to do this job at a low rate. Many, are happy to do it just for a basic wage so they can get ID95.
You don't see this situation with nurses, for example. So John, my response to you, is if you want more bucks, go back to school.
That is why the pilots earn so much. They had to invest a hell of a lot of time and a great deal of money to aquire that skill to get them in that situation.
Finally, if we are talking about the economy, how much less business do you think will happen in america as a result of an expensive inefficient system? How many business deals wouldn't be done, opportunity's not noticed, and all that. A few companies strugglying doesnt make the economy bad. Now if Southwest, Airtran, and Jetblue can all post millions and millions in profits, the problem isn't with the economy.
The economy has changed. People are no longer willing to pay $800 for a two hour flight return, and UA has started to realise that with TED. expect to see more TED destinations, or perhaps something similar but with a bit more sophsiticated branding to appeal to business travellers. (think Qantas Cityflyer)
UA and CO seem to have seen the light and moving to more international flying.
SHUPirate1 From United States, joined Sep 2003, 3484 posts, RR: 25 Reply 7, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2904 times:
Just out of curiousity, what is an "ASS" airfare? Is that where they will transport a rear end for a dollar, and then they charge 10 dollars for each leg, a dollar for each foot, 50 dollars for a chest, 10 dollars for each arm, a dollar for each finger, and 1000 dollars for a head? And when is Ryanair going to come up with this? Better yet, maybe Delta should be doing this too...seems like a great way to make money...
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
John From United States, joined Sep 1999, 1276 posts, RR: 4 Reply 9, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2675 times:
You give your heart and soul to an airline for 20+ years and this is the thanks you get...I never expected to get rich working for an airline and I've always enjoyed what I do for a living, but ENOUGH is ENOUGH! And you're absolutely right, We WILL have to look for other employment because we won't be able to support our families and pay our mortgages any longer! The state of this industry is VERY, VERY SAD! And who are they going to hire to replace us? Young kids at $7.50 an hour? I'm sorry, but there goes your experience and customer service right down the schitta! AND you think people are going to work for those WAl-Mart wages in places like New York, Boston, Los Angeles, Philadelphia, San Francisco?? yea...right!! And put up with the crap we put up with on a daily basis, not to mention the overwhelming responsibilities!? Ya know what? I wish some of you could put yourself in our positions for one minute (and think about what you're saying) instead of being so f'*king cynical!
Planemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 3401 posts, RR: 16 Reply 10, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2576 times:
John, I don't think that anyone is being cynical. Aviation is not unique to the economics of competition and consumer choice. Talk to the good people of Michigan... they can give you a lot more tales of heart ache than you can imagine. And BTW, GM just announced this week that they are laying off another 12,000 workers (mainly in Europe this time.) Unfortunately, you are not alone... there are millions of people around the world in different industries that are in your same position.
N1120a From France, joined Dec 2003, 22478 posts, RR: 77 Reply 11, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2561 times:
It is not about greedy unions, because they were just keeping the airlines honest when they were making billions and trying to not share with the employees. It is not about excess capacity, because americans have shown the willingness to fly, we are still not back at pre-9/11 levels, let alone what was projected. It is about bad airline management making bad deals and about bad governments dumping the economy down the toilet. And it is certainly not about low fares, as Southwest was around way before all this, and everyone seemed to get along somehow
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
TOLtommy From United States, joined Dec 2003, 2137 posts, RR: 3 Reply 12, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2561 times:
John -
You are obviously angry right now, and that's understandable. But I have to point out to you a few interesting facts. You also currently pay less IN REAL DOLLARS than you did in 1988 for items like gasoline, food, housing and clothing. Why? Because the market forced the suppliers to become more efficient, or get out of the business. I'm sure that you've never complained that gas was too cheap, and it drove the small mom and pop stations out of business. Heck, I'll even bet you've shopped in a Wal-Mart, or similar store!
Given yesterday's news, I'll assume that you are a US employee. May I ask what your position is? If you are going to come in and vent, give us all the facts, friend.
In those 20 years you refer to, it was well known that US had a cost problem due to operating inefficiencies. But people like you insisted on "Parity +1%", and fought work rule changes that would have allowed your company to compete with the growing threat of LCC's.
As long as the frequent flyer program kept 'em loyal, the economy stayed good, and they had no other real choice everything was fine. You could keep those industry leading wages and inefficient work rules. But your management got greedy and cut travel agents out of the loop by eliminating commissions. You didn't complain, did you? After all, they were just order takers, right? Why shouldn't they work for free, and still provide 60-70% of your customers? But oops, now your customers could easily see that LOWER fares were available, so guess what, they bought 'em! Go figure! And those travel agent suddenly had no incentive to sell those higher fares, so they sold the cheap ones! You really showed them, huh?
Then you had the economy go into recession near the end of the Clinton administration, and 9/11 followed. The industry got billions of dollars in direct handouts and loan guarantees following 9/11. But the legacy carriers still can't figure out how to make a buck, and the LCC's can. Sorry. Not my problem. I'll bet WN has had no problem hiring at their starting wage level along the east coast. Why? Thinks like profit sharing and stock plans give them a chance to earn real money through incentives for performance.
There are too many people chasing too few jobs in this business. That means competition, something the legacy carriers, and their employees are completely unprepared for. You don't want your kids to have to work for Wal-Mart wages? Me neither. I tell mine to study hard and continue their education, in order to be able to have a job that can't be outsourced. But if they do work for a company like Wal-Mart, they'll have to work hard, so that they can advance. There are opportunities for those that work hard in all those companies, whether it is Wal-Mart, or an LCC. The opportunity for high wages in todays economy for those who just want to punch a clock, not so good.
Did you know which country recieves the highest number of the jobs outsourced her in the USA? It's not India, China, or even Mexico. Most jobs outsourced in the USA are filled in the USA.
Jalalabad From , joined today!, posts, RR: Reply 13, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2532 times:
F9 is hiring CSA's at $8.53/hr. on the NW job phone hotline there was an opening for a parttime temporary "cross-utilization" CSA, $12.01/hr. and cross-utilization means you have to clean dc9 lavs during turns, and of course NW wants lots of customer service and airline experience. i agree: how are passengers going to get service from these hires?
Planemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 3401 posts, RR: 16 Reply 14, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2497 times:
It is not about greedy unions, because they were just keeping the airlines honest when they were making billions and trying to not share with the employees.
You are wrong there. The airline industry has lost billions more than the cost of capital invested. As Warren Buffet stated after losing hundreds of millions of dollars in US Airways, "In hindsight, I wish the Wright Brothers had crashed at Kitty Hawk." Not all but many unions actively contributed to the current state of the legacy carriers with their uneconomic "industry leading wage" demands.
Did you know which country recieves the highest number of the jobs outsourced her in the USA? It's not India, China, or even Mexico. Most jobs outsourced in the USA are filled in the USA.
Interesting fact. I did know that a ton of jobs were relocating to the south... just look at where most of the new auto plants are now located - not just the "Big Three" but foreign makes as well!
There are too many people chasing too few jobs in this business.
This fact applies right across the nation in just about every industry. One example is aerospace engineers, and another is software programmers. For some of the reasons given by Lufthansa, airlines seem to get a disproportionate share of job seekers - just look at WN and B6. They get thousands of applicants for each position.
TOLtommy From United States, joined Dec 2003, 2137 posts, RR: 3 Reply 15, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2446 times:
"just look at where most of the new auto plants are now located - not just the "Big Three" but foreign makes as well!"
Very true, PlaneMaker. States with business friendly tax policies! Ohio had gotten the first "foreign" automaker plant, back when they built the Marysville assembly plant back in 1982. But more recently, Honda has built in Alabama. I'm sure the fact that Ohio has risen to number 3 in the country in state taxes had something to do with it. Those Honda, Toyota, Mercedes, and Nissan plants have had strong organizing action by the UAW, but no luck. Why, because the employers treat them well, and pay them well too. Their cars sell without huge incentives because customers like me know they last and hold value. I've driven nothing but Ohio built Hondas since 1993. But the labor laws in those states allow them to replace poor workers more easily, which keeps productivity high.
Aa757first From United States, joined Aug 2003, 2967 posts, RR: 9 Reply 16, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2445 times:
i agree: how are passengers going to get service from these hires?
They don't care. Yes, if the CSR snaps at them, they will get mad for that day. But, next week if the airline runs a $126 R/T to Flordia, they'll be buying thier tickets mighty fast.
AirTran is hiring CSRs in various cities for $8.75, with a max of $16.75. Look at the job requirments. You have to have a clean background, be 18, have a high school diploma, be able to type 25 WPM and lift 70 pounds. I looked on Monster for a job with similar requirments. A hopsital patient care agent makes $7.00 an hour.
Rparker537 From United States, joined Sep 2004, 41 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2434 times:
To the comment about shi$%y service, I respond - check out JetBlue. They provide great service and have low wages. They do this by specifically marketing their jobs (at lease in the eyes of investors/financers) as short-term, non-career stints. They are NOT looking for career employees. This is a brilliant strategy - make JBLU a stepping stone before returning to school or finding permanent work.
Planemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 3401 posts, RR: 16 Reply 18, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2377 times:
And speaking of "outsourcing," look at how many "customer contact" airline employees have been replaced by technology... now customers can look up flights, buy tickets, print boarding passes, check-in via the web, and even board a flight (LH at FRA for example) with absolutely no contact with any airline staff. And at airports self-serve kiosks/terminals are sprouting everywhere!
As has been noted earlier in different posts, this is not unique to aviation. We are still going through the "IT Revolution" which is having a similar effect as the "Industrial Revolution" had in the 19th century - huge leaps in productivity and lower costs but at the cost of thousands of displaced workers.
2 man crews have been the norm for quite a while now but don't forget that Boeing and Airbus eliminated 1/3 of all cockpit jobs in a very short time frame - talk about a dramatic productivity increase through technology!
Jhooper From United States, joined Dec 2001, 5933 posts, RR: 13 Reply 19, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2334 times:
Yep, Planemaker, you're right on....Think about all the industrial revolution workers who lost their jobs. I don't think anyone would argue that we go back to that level of productivity so these folks could have their jobs back. Progress is very good for the economy in the long run. You've gotta feel bad for the individuals involved, but hopefully they use it as an opportunity to acquire the new skills that are currently in demand and find better work. Gotta think "big picture" here..
It'd be great if anyone cared about the "20+ years of loyal service" these employees have put in, but the execs, shareholders, and the traveling public really don't. Not to be mean, but this is the truth. The only reason the execs act like they care about loyalty to employees is so they'll work harder and be more productive, increasing the bottom line profits. This is business, and that's all they care about. Employees are the instruments/tools to accomplish this end. My dad's about to lose his airline job due to this mess; nobody cares he's been there for 26 years.
As for the "cheap ass fares", this is what the market demands. Offer them, or the seats go empty = zero revenue. what do you think is better?
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
FATFlyer From United States, joined May 2001, 4412 posts, RR: 22 Reply 20, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2294 times:
With all due respect for what airline industry workers are going through and with my sympathy for the pain that is being felt. But, consider:
How many people complained when ATMs replaced bank tellers and the remaining tellers then were made part time at wages only slightly above minimum wage?
How many people chose to pay for full-service gas to keep service station attendants who knew about cars employed when self-serve pricing came around? Now it's becoming an even easier job with "pay at the pump" usage going up.
As a society we have seen this go on in many industries. Few people saw change in other industries as a problem unless it hurt them personally in some way. Instead most people vote their pocketbook in all industries for efficiency, speed, and cost.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
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