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Forgeard: A350 To Start, Bleedless Engines  
User currently offlineBuyantUkhaa From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 2870 posts, RR: 3
Posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 14412 times:

From ATW/FT:

Airbus shareholders EADS and BAE Systems are expected to approve marketing of the A350 to airlines around year end, Chief Executive Noel Forgeard said in an interview with the Financial Times.

The A350 would be a derivative of the A330-200 but would have 1,000 nm of extra range--up to 7,600 nm--to compete with the 7E7. It would use the engines Rolls-Royce and GE are developing for the 7E7.

Forgeard said the new aircraft could be ready to enter service in 2009. He added that the program would cost between eur2 billion and eur3 billion and that Airbus would apply for between eur700 million and eur1 billion in repayable launch aid from France, Germany, the UK and Spain as allowed by the 1992 US-EU agreement on government assistance. "We shall obviously apply for refundable launch loans," he said, but noted the project is "absolutely financeable by Airbus if we have no launch loans. This is a derivative, not a new program."


http://www.atwonline.com/indexfull.cfm?newsid=4646&CMP=NLC-dailynewsletter


I scratch my head, therefore I am.
53 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 7987 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 13826 times:

Alas, it's going to cost way more than €2 billion to develop the so-called A350.

Going to a bleedless system of driving power accessories will need a complete redesign of much of the fuselage of the plane, and the switch to a new wing will also be quite expensive, too. My guess is that the total cost may end up more like around €5 billion.


User currently offlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4302 posts, RR: 36
Reply 2, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 13770 times:

This plane sounds quite heavy... What about a lighter 757/A-306 replacement which airlines like Lufthansa, Monarch and Thai Airways might like better for their regional flights? Won't the A350 be too much airplane for them?


nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
User currently offlineKEESJE From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 13649 times:


Bleedless Engines .. no indications for that ..




User currently offlineBuyantUkhaa From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 2870 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 13073 times:

Keesje:

"It would use the engines Rolls-Royce and GE are developing for the 7E7."

So it seems that they will.



I scratch my head, therefore I am.
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8187 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 13019 times:

Does this mean that the 330 is a white elephant? Sounds like it as the 350 should be a far more efficient plane.

User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16992 posts, RR: 67
Reply 6, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 12997 times:

Does this mean that the 330 is a white elephant? Sounds like it as the 350 should be a far more efficient plane.

Judgin from the sales, no  Big grin And in any case the 350 will be 15-20 years younger. Of course it will be more efficient.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineSNATH From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3238 posts, RR: 22
Reply 7, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 12986 times:

MEA-707,

What about a lighter 757/A-306 replacement

Bingo. That's what I've been wondering too. It looks as if Airbus is trying to
compete with the 7E7-8 or possibly -9 (since the A350 is supposed to be
larger than the -8) and let the 7E7-3 take over the 757/A300 replacement
market.

BuyantUkhaa,

I think there has been talk to modify the 7E7 engines to be bleed-air ones
for the A350. In fact, if the 747Adv goes ahead, it will also need bleed-air
versions of the 7E7 engines to cut design costs (isn't it ironic or what?).
Airbus will probably do the same.

Tony



Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 8, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 12954 times:

Brief thoughts:

Bleed air/bleedless versions of the engines will be an easy fix.

Rolls has already told Airbus they want future developments to focus on the Trent 1000.

The Trent 1000 is a fair sight bigger than the 700. Will require more ground clearance.

With the PW4000 taking a fair share of orders on the 330, they will have to consider PW as a partner for the 350 or risk not selling planes to the very target markets (people who want more range from an A330 family craft for commonality)

N


User currently offlineBuyantUkhaa From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 2870 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 12927 times:

Tony:

This is probably the trouble when using a new engine concept on an existing airframe. Compatibility issues - adapting "old" airframes to new engines (A350) and new engines to old airframes (B747ADV). I expect these to be temporary issues, as probably all new (that is, designed from scratch) airframes from now on will start using bleedless engines. But then again, when the DC-9 / BAC1-11 / B727 were introduced everybody thought wing-mounted engines were done for.



I scratch my head, therefore I am.
User currently offlineSNATH From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3238 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 12849 times:

Hey,

probably all new (that is, designed from scratch) airframes from now on will start using bleedless engines.

You're probably right. However, the A350 is not a plane designed from scratch.
Apart from the cost, Airbus wants to have it flying as soon as possible. So, they
might not be able to afford the time redesigning its systems to take advantage
of the bleedless engines. Ditto with the B747Adv. So, probably, those two will
have bleed-air engines.

But, hey, what do I know? I'm just a computer geek.  Wink/being sarcastic

Tony



Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
User currently offlineFrugalqxnwa From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 565 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 12802 times:

This is one big cat-fight just ahead, and it will be interesting to watch!

The adaptability of older airframes to newer engines is certainly a big issue, but is feasable. Boeing redesigned the 737 in the early '80s so they could switch from JT8Ds to CFM-56 engines. If Airbus needs to get more ground clearance for the Trent 1000, they may just take a few pages from the 737; flatten the bottom of the nacelle, mount the engine ahead of the wing, lengthen the nose gear.

However, I hope the 7E7 blows the A350 out of the water!!


User currently offlineSNATH From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3238 posts, RR: 22
Reply 12, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 12598 times:

However, I hope the 7E7 blows the A350 out of the water!!

Most likely it will in performance, but not in price.

Tony



Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
User currently offlineBy738 From Tonga, joined Sep 2000, 2260 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 12586 times:

Wasnt it Airbus who gloated about Boeing creating variants of older models with aging original airframe design instead of building new ones ????? How old is the original A330 design now ????

User currently offlineKL911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 5119 posts, RR: 12
Reply 14, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 12442 times:

If the A350 will sell way better than the 7E7 ( At this moment price is a big factor for airlines, plus current A330 operators will probably choose commonality of the A350 ) Boeing will be in BIG trouble to earn back the investments.

Just my 2 euri

KL911



Next trip : DUB-AUH-CGK-DPS-KUL-AUH-CDG-ORK :-)
User currently offlineRadelow From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 426 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 11686 times:

Aren't the engine manufacturers making bleed-air versions of these new motors as well? I think that's what Airbus is referring to.

Mark


User currently offlineRuscoe From Australia, joined Aug 1999, 1541 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 11609 times:

This will hurt the 332&3 sales as much as 7e7. The design will be less efficient than the 7e7, but extra seats will keep the seat costs down, and Airbus will keep the price down, so might catch some of the market.

Amazing how the 7e7 has put airbus on the backfoot!

Ruscoe


User currently offlineTransSwede From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 997 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 11551 times:

"Aren't the engine manufacturers making bleed-air versions of these new motors as well? I think that's what Airbus is referring to."

Yes indeed. Those same modifications would be used on the 747-Advanced, if that ever becomes reality.


User currently offlineMarcus From Mexico, joined Apr 2001, 1777 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 11336 times:

To some of you this might sound like a stupid question but here it goes...

What are the differences between air-bleed and bleedless engines?, I don't mean just visually.



Kids!....we are going to the happiest place on earth...TIJUANA! signed: Krusty the Clown
User currently offlineJcded From Switzerland, joined Jan 2004, 213 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 10728 times:

Bleed air is used in the aircraft for ventilation and to power some systems, the bleedless engine would have a generator built in and power the systems electrically. The theoretical advantages are less weight (no titanium air ducts) simpler systems and less loss of power since air is no longer removed from the engine (1st stage if I remember right)


You breathe to do good and have fun.
User currently offlineRichard28 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2003, 1603 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 10500 times:

Marcus,

normal engines bleed air from the main engine to a generator to power the electrical systems of the aircraft - this means that not all the incoming air reaches the combustion part of the engine, to give thrust.

Bleedless engines do not "bleed" this air, instead all of the air goes through the engine, to give thrust, making them more efficent.

With a bleedless engine, electircal power for the aircraft needs to be supplied via an alternative source - eg battery power.

Think this is right - I'm sure someone will pick up if i've got it wrong  Smile

Rich.


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 10245 times:

bleedair is used mostly for pneumatics and airco, but also to drive e.g. hydraulic pumps and to start (other) engines..

in "bleedless" engines energy is tapped by bigger generators to power the actuators / systems.

The required energy for the aircraft systems still comes from the engines but it is hoped in a more efficient way.



User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4105 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 10127 times:

How old is the original A330 design now ????

About 30 years by my count.  Big grin


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 10078 times:

they will have to consider PW as a partner for the 350 or risk not selling planes to the very target markets (people who want more range from an A330 family craft for commonality)

Considering that Boeing wont be offering a PW in this future market segment either, I'd say (with history as my reference; e.g., 757) the above point is moot.



User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 960 posts, RR: 51
Reply 24, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9929 times:

Most likely it will in performance, but not in price.

Actually... the 7E7-8 list for 110 million USD, which is very competitive pricing. The current A330-200 list for 130 million USD (minimum) and the current generation 763ER begin at 120 million USD.

Boeing is saving huge amounts of money by bringing on risk-sharing partners and cutting back on labor cost for final assembly. If Airbus wants to beat Boeing on pricing, they have some work to do.

Boeing redesigned the 737 in the early '80s so they could switch from JT8Ds to CFM-56 engines. If Airbus needs to get more ground clearance for the Trent 1000, they may just take a few pages from the 737; flatten the bottom of the nacelle, mount the engine ahead of the wing, lengthen the nose gear.

And in doing so... Airbus would be violating Boeing's patent on the cantilievered engine pylon. Boeing has the rights to that technique and I doubt they would give it away.

The A350 would be a derivative of the A330-200 but would have 1,000 nm of extra range--up to 7,600 nm--to compete with the 7E7. It would use the engines Rolls-Royce and GE are developing for the 7E7.

That 1,000 nm of range that the A350 lacks, relative to the 7E7, will haunt Airbus. The 772ER blew A343 sales away by a lesser margin than 1,000 nm and we all saw how the under-legged 764ER competed against the A332.

A 763-sized aircraft with 8,500nm range will blossom the Asia-North America market.


25 Atmx2000 : Boeing redesigned the 737 in the early '80s so they could switch from JT8Ds to CFM-56 engines. If Airbus needs to get more ground clearance for the Tr
26 Gigneil : Considering that Boeing wont be offering a PW in this future market segment either, I'd say (with history as my reference; e.g., 757) the above point
27 Windshear : Noel Forgeard is that imitation or is that improvising? Boaz...
28 Flybyguy : If the A350 ends up being more successful than the 787 solely by price, then Boeing will have whoever is elected president place heavy import tariffs
29 Post contains images MxCtrlr : I just find it ironic that Airbus has been putting the 7E7 down for all of this time and, now that orders are coming in for it (at last count, Boeing
30 Post contains images KEESJE : "How old is the original A330 design now ???? About 30 years by my count. " That says a lot about your count..
31 Udo : All people who find it so ironic that Airbus now builds the A350...Boeing once loudly announced that there wouldn't be a market for an aircraft such a
32 BuyantUkhaa : What modifications would the fuselage need in order to accomodate the systems associated with bleedless engines? If bleed air is used to power the hyd
33 Nwfltattendant : Too may commom aircraft for the market. How many different version of the long range twin do we need ?... this is getting insane. I realize theres spe
34 StickShaker : ..."What about a lighter 757/A-306 replacement"... ..."Bingo. That's what I've been wondering too. It looks as if Airbus is trying to compete with th
35 FriendlySkies : "How old is the original A330 design now ???? About 30 years by my count. " That says a lot about your count.. How so? IMO the A330 fuselage still loo
36 KEESJE : FriendlySkies, ever noticed the 707, 727, 737 and 757 have the same fuselage? Check the belly of the 727 and 757 forward and aft the wing.. surprised?
37 Post contains images Hamlet69 : I must say, I'm disappointed in some of you (especially you, ConcordeBoy ) in failing to notice what Airbus is implying with the A350, though, of cour
38 N766UA : I'm sorry but I understood the 7E7 was not a threat to Airbus? Yeah huh... look at you now, Airbus.
39 RT514 : I'm sorry but I understood the 7E7 was not a threat to Airbus? Yeah huh... look at you now, Airbus. I'm sorry but I understand the A380 was not a thre
40 N766UA : Last I checked Boeing was not building an A380 rival. So what is the point of your "Yeah huh... look at you now, Boeing" comment? Lip service is cheap
41 RT514 : Last I checked Boeing was not building an A380 rival. I've heard talk of a magical 747Adv... ...or is that just cheap lip service? (in this case, comi
42 N766UA : Upgrading the 747 hardly makes it compete with a plane that holds 100+ more people. Unless there is another 747 concept floating around out there?
43 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : Perhaps... but the 757 and 767 are, in fact, different aircraft. The A350 would be best targeted as a supplemental frame to an existing A330 fleet. St
44 RT514 : N766UA, Boeing had always preached the trend of frequency and denounced capacity. If they held true to that theory, upgrading a large aircraft like th
45 BR715-A1-30 : I've always had a certain respect for Airbus until they announced this. This is just plane despicable. The reason they get away with Low Prices for Am
46 RT514 : The reason they get away with Low Prices for Americans is because the American Dollar is worth so much over in Europe. I hope the 7E7 blows the A350 o
47 Post contains links Nosedive : From http://www.xe.com/: Live mid-market rates as of 2004.10.19 19:55:16 GMT. Euro to USD   1.00 EUR=1.25224 USD 1 USD = 0.798572 EUR Yes the Dollar
48 Planemaker : So,assuming the $110-million list price for the 7E7, what will be break even? Don't forget to take into account ANA's "launch discount" and subsequent
49 BuyantUkhaa : Well, from what I read in a parallel thread - the engines for the A350 will in fact be the bleed-air adapted versions of the bleedless engines. What i
50 Gigneil : Its standard technological evolution... both engines will feature cores that have been the subject of major development efforts. Neither core were mat
51 RT514 : Let's assume the 350 will sell at €110,000,000 new. Where does this number come from? As the 7E7 seems to be the further technological departure fro
52 DfwRevolution : As the 7E7 seems to be the further technological departure from the status quo, Yes... but Boeing is brining in major risk-sharing partners for the fi
53 BuyantUkhaa : Does anybody know how big the loss of efficiency would be when bleedless engines would be converted to bleed air, in terms of thrust/fuel consumption?
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