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BA Long Haul Services To Asia  
User currently offlineWheelsatc From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2004, 111 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 7966 times:

Osaka, Nagoya, Seoul, Taipei, Manila, Jakarta & Kuala Lumpur.

BA stopped serving these destinations due to the financial crisis that hit Asia (except KL which I believe was for different reasons).

Are there any plans to return to these destinations? Or are they focusing elswhere in the region i.e. Shanghai, Guangzhou, Ho Chi Minh etc.

Regards

41 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLH423 From Canada, joined Jul 1999, 6501 posts, RR: 54
Reply 1, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 7645 times:

So far at the moment there are no announcements to increase service to Asia other than some new BAWC flights to China on wet-leased 747Fs. I find this rather troubling as both Lufthansa and Air France are continuously building their Chinese networks. AF are set to start service to their FIFTH Chinese city while upgrading other cities like PEK to a 777-300ER. BA continue to serve HKG 17 times a week (making it the number one European carrier to HKG) but only serves PEK four-times weekly on a 777-200ER.

While BA are far-and-away the number one European carrier to the United States and Canada (23 destinations, as I recall...all of them at least daily), they lack the same coverage as AF and LH in Asia and South America, and even their African network leaves many holes, especially in West Africa. Yes, there aren't the same cultural and linguistic ties between the UK and West Africa, at least not on the same level as France, there are still several destinations that could probably benefit from BA service. In South America BA serve GIG, GRU, CCS, BOG, and EZE. Not too bad except when you consider that there's only two flights. One flight is LHR-GRU-GIG 3x weekly, the other four days it goes LHR-GRU-EZE. The other is a daily 777 LHR-CCS-BOG. We don't even serve SCL, a oneworld hub!

While I am very proud of BA's excellent worldwide reputation, I do believe that the company can be slow to change and is missing out on vital, emerging markets like Asia and South America.

LH423



« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
User currently offlineFLYSSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7403 posts, RR: 57
Reply 2, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 7605 times:

LH423,

In China, Air France is the only European airline to serve nonstop 4 cities :
PEK : Daily B773ER
HKG: Daily B772ER
PVG : Daily B772ER + 4 x Weekly codeshare with MU
CAN : 5 x Weekly A332 + 3 x Weekly codeshare with CZ.


User currently offlineBCAL From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 3384 posts, RR: 16
Reply 3, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 7563 times:

While I am very proud of BA's excellent worldwide reputation, I do believe that the company can be slow to change and is missing out on vital, emerging markets like Asia and South America.

Interesting post that BA might be missing out on emerging markets like Asia and South America. Younger a.net members might be unaware that BOAC (BA pre merger BOAC/BEA) was required by the government many years ago to hand over their loss making South America routes to privately owned British United Airways (BUA) who through various acquisitions and mergers became British Caledonian (BCal). Despite operating from LGW, BUA managed to turn a profit on these routes, flying VC10s and later in BCal's days DC10s. The routes became the back bone of BCal's long haul network and continued to be profitable. In the 1970s the government then made BCal swap their South American routes with BA and in return BCal was given the opportunity to fly to the Gulf States. At the time this was a godsend for BCal who had then established a successful link between Houston and LGW and thought that many oil executives would then use their Houston to LGW service with onward connections to the Gulf. Unfortunately this swap came just before the oil crisis and traffic on Gulf routes declined, and this was a contributory factor that led to BCal being forced to merge with BA.

If BA is not keen on developing their South American market, then why not let BMI or even VS try where they have failed, just like BUA succeeded in the past? Or do BMI and VS not see any profit in South America? It seems that VS (and to a smaller extent BMI) are keener to compete head on with BA on their routes.





MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
User currently offlineANstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5176 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7495 times:

I thought i read earlier this year BA had applied to fly to Shanghai? They are just awaiting approval.

Also, is the PEK flight restricted due to regulations or just that there isn't demand?


User currently offlineLH423 From Canada, joined Jul 1999, 6501 posts, RR: 54
Reply 5, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7500 times:

I do believe BA's South American routes are decently profitable for BA as present. BA247 (LHR-GRU-GIG/EZE) goes out full most days and the CCS/BOG route has just been upgraded to a 777 (from a 767 but still down from the days when it was a 744). Even MEX, which is a killer route for most of the European carriers is only served 3-4x weekly on a 744 by BA. AF are so keen to keep MEX a premier route for them that as the 744s get EspacePremière taken out they will put a 777-300ER on the route and supplement it with three additional frequencies as to not lose out on the first class passengers. How BA don't do as well on the route, I don't know. Obviously, we have our relationship with IB, and for that I don't see South America ever growing too much (maybe someday we'll see either the CCS/BOG flight split and/or the GIG/EZE tags to the GRU flight will become their own flight, or maybe even a new service to SCL to link with LAN Chilé.

LH423



« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 6, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7445 times:

Just one small point. BA has a good reputation for its daily services to GRU
(3 x weekly the flights continues to GIG and 4 x weekly to EZE). GRU is one of BA routes with the highest yields in the world. As of Nov/04, BA will replace the 777 for the 747 to GRU's daily flights.

However, in my opinion it is high time for BA to at least dedicate a daily flight for the route GRU-GIG with the 747, so that they could add a daily flight on the EZE-SCL route (as pointed out, SCL is a oneworld hub!!!!). Further expansion is also necessary to other destinations in South America. AF and LH are doing far better in the South American region:

AF already operates twice daily direct flights to Brazil (GRU,with the 777 and GIG with the 747) and daily flights to EZE-SCL. In addition, AF has flights to CCS, BOG, and CAY.

LH operates daily flights GRU-GIG with the 747, and daily flights to EZE-SCL.
LH also serves CCS.

There is no doubt that BA is missing out in the emerging markets of South America!

Hardi


User currently offlineN1120a From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26376 posts, RR: 76
Reply 7, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7377 times:

The reason BA does not serve MEX more is because they can't. Under the bilateral, the UK either has to give AM or MX LHR slots or BA can only fly the limited schedule they do now. The UK offered LGW, but the Mexican carriers said "no gracias" and BA is stuck with what they have. Still, I am surprised they don't have more South America flights, as well as Asian ones, as London is still Europe's financial center


Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineFinnWings From Finland, joined Oct 2003, 640 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7349 times:

You should not forget that Helsinki is new rising gateway of the traffic from Euorope to Asia and especially China. Finnair has tripled their frequencies to Asia during the last few years and will continue to do so in the future as well. In China alone AY flies to Beijing (daily), Shanghai (5 times a week) and Hong Kong (three times a week). BA has noticed the strength of AY in Asia (especially in China) and they even started new afternoon feeder service from LHR to HEL for those AY flights. As a result of that we see a lot of transit pax from UK here at HEL nowadays, especially because 40min transit time is enough here for long haul flights which offers convinient and fast connection possibilities for BA passengers.

Finnair has stated that there will be even three times more frequencies from Helsinki to Asia before the end of this decade than nowadays. Currently they are seeking for more MD-11s before the replacement of the type and new destinations will be announced later. The strongest candidates will be in Vietnam, China and Korea. Shanghai will most likely go to daily as well.

What comes to BA, they have a lot of long haul destinations worldwide but it doesn't mean they have to be number one in all markets. They don't have to serve every city because there is also other OneWorld members in the Europe which are successfull in those markets, like Iberia in Southern-America and Finnair in Northeastern-Asia.

Best Regards,
FinnWings



[Edited 2004-10-25 20:49:08]

User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 9, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7270 times:

Indeed, nordic countries in general have a "vocation" for Asian routes, as they use the "polar" route, making flights quicker and more convenient.

The same we could say for countries in Southern Europe, which have a natural vocation for South America, i.e. IB and TP!

Hardi


User currently offlineN1120a From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26376 posts, RR: 76
Reply 10, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 7286 times:

FinnWings is right about AY and its Asian Routes. I actually saw something that showed it would be faster to fly to HEL, connect and fly to Asia than flying non-stop from CDG, FRA or LHR, simply because of HEL's location. Also, the prices offered are good, and they are still OW (for BA miles holders)


Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineFLYSSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7403 posts, RR: 57
Reply 11, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 7171 times:

Hardiwv,

Next winter season in South America, Air France serves :

CAY = Daily nonstop A343
GRU = Daily nonstop B772ER
GIG = Daily nonstop B744
EZE = Daily nonstop B772ER
CCS = Daily nonstop A343
BOG = 5 x Weekly nonstop A343
SCL = Daily B772ER - 1 stop in EZE -

Air France was to re-open CDG-SCL nonstop but delayed the final decision to do so, as the reorganization of traffic from CDG and AMS is not yet completed...


User currently offlineFlyCaledonian From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2072 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 7098 times:

When BA had its South America operations based at LGW a few years ago it was operating daily LGW-GRU-GIG and LGW-EZE-SCL on 744s. The downturn a fewa years back saw BA cut frequencies and capacity, as it did in Asia (KIX went daily before it was dropped). The downturn coincided with Bob Ayling's policy of concentrating more on O&D traffic, and in particular premium O&D traffic, hence the reconcentration of flights at LHR (As opposed to the dual hub system that was in place, LGW being used for all flights to Latin America, bar MEX, and Africa, bar CAI, JNB and CPT).

As regards new destinations, a new bilateral with the Chinese was supposedly agreed back in February, but few details have emerged apart from the fact that up to 21 weekly flights to up to seven cities (PEK and PVG, plus five new destinations) would be allowed. BA would also hope to benefit from the new bilateral agreed with India, as discussed on here a couple of weeks ago.

In short though, BA is heavily geared towards LHR O&D traffic, rather than feeding a hub, to target yield. The move towards the 777 (16 777-236ERs replaced the 747-236Bs) for longhaul routes and the A319/A320 family for shortahaul (Over forty 757s retired/sold and seven 767s leased to QF) is the demonstration of this policy. LH, AF and KL draw a lot of transfer traffic into FRA, MUC, CDG and AMS - the cheapest flights to many Asian destinations are usually on one of those three rather than BA!

BA will add longhaul capacity where it can support it largely on O&D. Whether that changes come 2008 once BA moves into T5 remains to be seen, but even if it did BA would hardly likely suddenly try and use LHR as a lrge scale transfer hub.



Let's Go British Caledonian!
User currently offlineMas777 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 1999, 2935 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 7094 times:

Although interesting notes above have been made - just to return to the topic...

BA still offers a code-share with Cathay Pacific flying LHR-HKG-KUL for over £1000 return in Economy although they seem to have now removed this routing from their online booking service from next week... I wonder why?  Yeah sure

With respect to BA and Asia - Rod's Future Size & Shape seemed to have trimmed most of Asia out in favour of Qantas (his national carrier) - which took an interesting twist with the recent BA/QF stake sell-off.

Wheelsatc - what had YOU heard about KUL that was so different from BA's press release at the time about "poor loads and yields in Malaysia due to the 1997 Asian Financial Crisis...".

As discussed many times before, many of us ex-frequent BA travellers between LHR and KUL (and that includes many BA staff I know), are still stumped by BA's withdrawal to KUL as their advance timetable shortly prior to the pullout still printed an aircraft change back to the 744 (from the 772) "...due to continuing demand... especially for cargo". Poor yield perhaps due to the exchange rate (which was only a temporary blip since things have changed significantly since) - but I (and many) still believe that Rod made a poor calculation with KUL. Passengers were supposed to have been channeled via Singapore with the withdrawal but BA in fact has seen its entire market share of Malaysia dwindle significantly... with the real gainers being Malaysia Airlines, Singapore Airlines and KLM.

Malaysia and UK are due to hold new ASA talks in the new year as Virgin Atlantic leaves its code-share with Malaysia Airlines in favour of its 'master' SQ. It should be an interesting battle ground as MAS is keen to ply Manchester-KL daily and launch 3 daily flights from LHR to compete head-on with SQ. MAS' card would be its new code-share alliance with Garuda (although GA served Gatwick before) and failing which - its expected alliance with Skyteam would still make a significant dent to BA as we may see KLM operating out of local UK airports on behalf of MAS and feeding passengers on to their planned twice daily link between AMS and KUL.

There is little reason to think that BA could not make some more interesting routes into Asia profitable especially with its Transatlantic and European connections... mile for mile, flights to Asia still cost the average passenger far more than the current fares charged for the equivalent Transatlantic routes.


User currently offlineWheelsatc From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2004, 111 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 7074 times:

It certainly seems BA is losing out to LH & AF but I would also say KLM, particuarly on Asian services. KLM serves more destinations in Asia than BA especially since the merger with AF and the re-organisation of services.

AF, LH and KLM all seem to be returning to the routes that they suspended at the end of the nineties and after 9/11 but BA have not, only keeping open the services to the big regionnal centre's like Tokyo, Hong Kong etc.

ANstar - BA cannot currently serve Shanghai according to the latest China-UK agreements. The agreement allows BA and Air China to serve Peking and Virgin and China Eastern to serve Shanghai. I believe BA and Virgin are currently fighting it out for the rights to serve Guangzhou.



User currently offlineWheelsatc From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2004, 111 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 7013 times:

Mas777 - I actually thought that BA didn't pull out of KL until 2000/01 after the financial crisis bit and I had heard that rather than the economic downturn causing the pull out it was due to high landing fees and other costs at the new airport that were making the route unprofitable. I suppose this coupled with the financial crisis would have made it unprofitable.

If BA are targeting premium business travellers I would think there are not so many travelling to KL as there would be Singapore or Hong Kong so KL misses out.


User currently offlineJoFMO From Germany, joined Jul 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 6933 times:

Beside all the given arguments why BA is so weak in Asia compared to it's Europena rivals, the most important is simply geography. LHR is on the edge of Europe and it doesn't make sense to go to Asia via LHR. On the other side that why AY and OS are so strong to Asia.

User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4756 posts, RR: 43
Reply 17, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 6757 times:

UK and China dont have a very liberal open minded bilateral treaty like China has with other EU states such as Germany and France to begin with.

But when it comes to HKG and NRT...BA is the KING there with double daily B 744s  Big grin

[Edited 2004-10-26 01:29:44]


[Edited 2004-10-26 01:33:33]

User currently offlineMadhatter From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 6748 times:

BA are going to become an even greater king on the LHR-HKG route from next June when it gets upgraded to triple daily 744 service. I to was under the assumption that they were supposed to be launching service to PVG soon. Also was there talk a few months ago of BA launching or relaunching service to 3 cities in the Asian area? How profitable is their Asian department now?

User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4756 posts, RR: 43
Reply 19, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 6749 times:

KIX and ICN are 2 cities that BA should seriously look into as there is massive high yield potential in both markets...not to mention high yield cargo revenue that can be made with 4-5 weekly or daily B 744 flights  Smile

User currently offlineRCS763av From Colombia, joined Jun 2004, 4394 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 6724 times:

Everyone to know: BA does not serve the LHR-CCS-BOG route daily, just 3x a week, and it will return to be a 767 in the first quarter of 2005.


Les escribo desde el frío de mi verde altiplano.
User currently offlineBacxboys From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 42 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 6597 times:

God the old KUL question rears its ugly head again and again!!!
Ive mentioned this several times so I will repeat myself again, BA never takes to drop a route without looking at all the factors first.
The main reason KUL was dropped was for the reason it was all Back of the bus traffic, and before u all start saying yes but First class and Club World were always full yes Full of BA Staff on their annual concessions or ID90 tickets because the Singapore flights were full.
BA tried everything to keep this route even trying a LHR-KUL-SYD but this still failed.
Indeed u may like to know that on BA services to OZ the yields through to SYD AND MEL are rubbish and again nearly all economy traffic.
Also the costs of operating a shuttle such as HKG-TPE are quite high, however you may like to know that KIX and SEL are once again being looked at by BA and may once again be re-started.
As for PVG well BA would love to start BUT CANT!!
BA never likes to CANCEL any flights but sometimes it has too!! Thats why its still making some profit unlike some of its European and American counterparts.


User currently offlineCX Flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6588 posts, RR: 55
Reply 22, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 6301 times:

Finnair have announced they are starting non-stop services to HKG 3x a week, cutting out the BKK stop.

Also, I remember reading a couple of years ago that BA's long term goal was to fly to every major city in the Pearl River Delta in 10 years or so; Hong Kong, Shenzhen, Guangzhou, Zhuhai and Macau! I doubt very much it will happen, but they did announce that it was their intention.


User currently offlineLH423 From Canada, joined Jul 1999, 6501 posts, RR: 54
Reply 23, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5994 times:

But when it comes to HKG and NRT

Absolutely, BA are the undisputed, No. 1 European carrier to HKG with 17 weekly flights all on 747s, however, I would say AF has them beat at NRT. According to the AF website, CDG-NRT will be served 19x weekly, with at least one flight on a 777-300ER.

LH423



« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
User currently offlineWang767 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 56 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5977 times:

FLYSSC,
Air France is not the only airlines from Europe,
Virgin to Shanghai,
Lufthansa to Beijing, Shanghai and Guanzhou
KLM to Shanghai
Austrian Airlines to Beijing

BA should get approved for LHR to BJS. Virgin is flying 6 yrs on LHR-PVG.it seems pretty profitable. But not many people in China are going to UK anyway, so the news is always about China <-> US.



UA 858 Heavy from PVG
25 Carpethead : Alitalia also flies to Asia including 10 weekly to NRT and three from KIX. Not sure of other Asian destinations though. BA has problems with connectin
26 Post contains images FLYSSC : Behramjee, BA may be the "KING" to HKG but not to NRT... AF has 17 x Weekly flights CDG-NRT : 1--4-6-7 : CDG.10:30 AF272 1234567 : CDG.13:20 AF276 123
27 Monkeyboi : I think BA is more interested at the moment to concentrate on flying the routes that it knows it can make a profit from instead of starting new routes
28 HB-IWC : Apart from its abscence from many prime Asian airport, as discussed above, what is also kind of surprising is BA's very limited presence on the London
29 Richardw : Perhaps the demand for BA B772 first class was not high enough, passengers preferring the BA B744 first class configuration.
30 HB-IWC : LH flies also to the same 4 cities but not nonstop to CAN... Not for much longer, though... You read it here first...
31 CX346 : the recent CX/CA tie up will change BA's position in Asia in the next 3 years, if CX and BA remain partners and welcome CA into oneworld. It should al
32 KEno : BA feeds its Oneworld partner Cathay to detinations in china via Hong Kong CX's network in mainland China is close to nothing compared to Dragonair, w
33 Wheelsatc : KEno - Isn't Dragonair partially owned by Cathey? I thought Dragonair was originally setup to operate services to China because Cathey were operating
34 KEno : Yes you're right but Cathay Pacific only owns less than 20% of Dragonair, while mainland China quite a large chunk. But when BA comes into the picture
35 Wheelsatc : In that case then I am sure BA are keen for Air China too join oneworld.
36 Donder10 : at least not on the same level as France, there are still several destinations that could probably benefit from BA service. I'd like to know which cit
37 ACES320 : RCS763av If you check the online time tables BA the 767 is schedulled for the LHR-BOG-CCS route in mid april, however BA themselves have stated the f
38 Wheelsatc : Yes it will be interesting to see how the next few years pan out. I certainly think BA's policy of chasing premium passengers has led to them not retu
39 Rtfm : BA does have rights to PVG - at the moment this has only been taken up by BA World Cargo who are currently operating a twice weekly B747-400F from STN
40 Post contains images Mas777 : rtfm - what you talked about 'putting bums in seats' of course is true but with BA and Asia - I still think the BA/QF partnership did play quite a rol
41 Post contains images Rtfm : Mas777 ref: "Doesn't anyone else wonder what QF is sometimes up to?" mmm, yes... the BA/QF relationship definitely has some 'interesting' dynamics! Ce
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