FLY777UAL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2123 times:
What is the traffic like between Los Angeles and deep South America (ie: Chile, Argentina, Brasil)?
Times from Brasil to Asia (via LHR/EZE) are roughly the same as those which would transit at LAX, yet a few hours are shaved off by traveling through LAX when coming out of EZE or SCL.
What is the business traffic like between South America and Asia, and despite the fact that none of the above listed countries participate in the I-94W Visa Waiver Program with the United States, would business passengers choose to fly via LAX on their way to Asia should the timing be right?
TBCITDG From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 1, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2113 times:
Personally I think that many people would avoid having to transit on LAX if they possibly could. With the security checks and so forth that many people have to go through, and let us not forget the strain of getting a Visa into the states, people that need to travel from South America to Asia have the option of doing it directly via AKL or MAD. Even SYD if they wanted more frequencies to Asia.
Before QF pulled out of EZE, there where many passengers that where on direct transit to Hong Kong, Shanghai and Taipei ex SYD. Why? Have no idea. But maybe the large Asian communities in South America could shed some light.
AMS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 2, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2112 times:
I know that many japanese Brazilians with a Brazilian Passport are now travelling via European Gateways to Japan, since they wont be able to obtain a U.S transit Visa anymore. I am quite sure this will effect the South America-USA transfer traffic.
TBCITDG From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 3, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2097 times:
I wonder how this effects people when ti comes to $$ Price? Is it roughly the same price via LAX as it is via MAD or LHR? Iam sure that there is more competition via Europe but any one have any indications regarding price?
Hardiwv From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 4, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2108 times:
FLY777UAL:
Very interesting post!
Currently the only airline serving LAX (with direct flights) from deep South America (GRU-GIG, EZE, SCL, etc) is VARIG (RG).
RG operates a 5 x week flights GIG-GRU-LAX-NRT with the MD11. Traffic (load + yields) are excellent. Before 09/11 this was RG's most profitable flight!
JAL operates 4 x week NRT-JFK-GRU with the 747 (this service operated via LAX until some time ago). By coincidence, last week I talked to a JAL manager in NY and they told me that their flights to GRU were equally very profitable, in both yields and load. They were expecting to increase services in the very near future.
Some other interesting points:
Indeed, everything changed after the US Government started to require transit passengers to have US VISA. At the time, Brazilians were the biggest pax in transit in the US, mainly in transit to Asian destinations; this alone is a strong indicator that there is a big business traffic between Brazil and Asia (especially Japan) - Continental, United and American network was also widely used.
After the requirement for Transit VISA in the US, there has been a drastic reduction in transit pax in the US, especially from Brazil. This resulted in a surge of pax traffic from Brazil to Asia through alternative routes: pax started being channelled mainly through YYC, FRA, LHR, and CDG, AMS, MAD. Air Canada even posted a news release stating that it increased flights from YYC to NRT because of the surge in transit pax from Brazil to Japan via YYC (there is no need for VISA for transit pax in Canada). And in EU countries Brazilians don’t even need VISA (3-month stay allowed without VISA).
Another route which started to be used is South Africa. SA even increased flights to Brazil to daily, and JNB-GRU was SA most profitable route in 2003! Many Brazilian started to fly to Asia through JNB using SA netwok from JNB to BKK, SYD, HKK, DEL, etc.
All this made RG look into other routes to Asia instead of the usual stop-over in LAX. For example, RG is expected to open a new route GRU-MUC-PEK, with the 777, as of December/04. In addition, the Brazilian and Japanese Governments were discussing a bilateral agreement by which RG would be allowed to operate to Japan from a third country in Europe. RG intended to fly the route GRU-ZRH-NRT.
On the other hand, the big downfall in transit pax in the US was in 2001-2002. Slowly transit pax traffic via the US is getting back to normal, as more people are getting the US VISA (which is valid for 10 years for Brazilians). Both JAL and RG now have again good loads and yields in their flights between Brazil and Japan via the US. Apparently RG has also abandoned its plan for the flights GRU-ZRH-NRT, as traffic is picking up through its LAX route.
I hope my answer will be of use!
Regards,
Hardi
PS: The biggest Japanese community outside Japan lives in the Sao Paulo area. With additional large communities of Koreans and Chinese.
Hardiwv From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 6, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2018 times:
Kavanagh:
I know this, but I mentioned in my posting DIRECT flights! RG is the only airline flying direct to LAX (from deep South America). If you consider South America as a whole, then you have LAN flights from LIM to LAX.
Kavanagh From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 7, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1970 times:
ok.... so theres 7x weekly DIRECT fligths from south america to LAX on LAN, Lima IS south america right?. And we should add the AR flight LAX-LIM that continues to EZE...
Hardiwv From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 8, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1959 times:
Kavanagh:
I will repeat it yet AGAIN: i was referring to "DEEP SOUTH AMERICA".
Please read the first post of this thread: "What is the traffic like between Los Angeles and deep South America (ie: Chile, Argentina, Brasil)?"
Deep South America means Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Chile, Paraguay and Uruguay. From these countries there is only ONE direct flight operated by RG on the route GRU-LAX, 5 x week with the MD11.
N1120a From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 13, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 1820 times:
Are you forgetting that LAN flies LAX-LIM-SCL-EZE? Then again, I still don't understand why we don't have more South American service, especially from US carriers. UA and AA both have a great deal of frequent flyers in the LA area would would love a 777 per day to all over South America
FLY2LIM From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 14, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 1799 times:
Deep South America means Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Chile, Paraguay and Uruguay. From these countries there is only ONE direct flight operated by RG on the route GRU-LAX, 5 x week with the MD11.
hmmmmm, according to whom? LIM is directly west of Bolivia, Brazil and northwest of Paraguay. It is in the southern hemisphere and it's an 8 hour flight from LAX. Not that I really care about this thread but, what makes LIM not be "deep enough" in SA?
By the way, the LAX - NRT flights on RG used to make a stop in LIM years ago. Same with the LAX flights on AR (do they still fly to LAX?). Then, there was my favorite, SFO-LAX-LIM on BN's DC-8s. Ahhh, the good ol' days.
FLY2LIM
Erikwilliam From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 15, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 1788 times:
RG from GIG-GRU-LAX-NRT, only because the Japanese comunity in Brasil that its huge, actually the biggest outside japan.
JL from GRU-JFK-NRT is very busy too, I took this flight to JFK a couple of times and was the cheapest.
The service is good and F/A´s too. and I have a really good history on this flight: the flight was packed, no place left in economy class, and I was on the side row ABC. I was on the window, and a pregnat lady and her mom seated next to me. As we know economy seats are not the most confortable in the world, then I asked the F/A if she could move me to another seat so the pregnant lady could be more confortable. The F/A asked me why and if I had any preference on another seat, since I was on the window one etc. I sayd no, anyone for me is fine, I just want this lady to be more confortable during the 8hr flight. I don´t know why, but the F/A couldn´t belive I was doing that, so she gently asked for my hand-bag and asked me to folow her. I did, and guess what?!She seated me in Business Class, since the economy was fully loaded with people. It was great, but I didn´t understand why she moved me instead of the pregnant lady, anyway, I did my part.
I know a bit off topic, but I felt like telling U guys.
Dutchjet From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 16, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 1775 times:
I always found it strange that there were so few flights operating out of LAX nonstop to GRU, GIG, EZE and SCL, I would think that a market exists for both O&D traffic and connections to/from the Asia and the Pacific, not to mention connections to other US destinations on the west coast. Miami is of course the US gateway to the United States, but other gateways/hubs have successful "deep south american" flights, such as DL at ATL, CO at IAH and AA and DFW.....why not LAX? I realize that the distances out of LAX are far, but the flights do no require ultra long haul aircraft, even a 763ER can manage some of the routes. Is this an oversight by the airlines, or to avoid risk, do US carriers simply route LAX passengers via their hubs. Another issue, I guess, is route authority - neither Argentina or Brazil are open skies and the number of flights into those countries are strictly controlled so services to LAX have not been introduced.
I too remember Braniffs DC8 flights from SFO to LAX to Lima and then on to other points in South America (mainly Brazil I think) - there may even have been a nonstop from LAX to SCL at one time. Braniff's authorities went to Eastern and then to American - so its likely that AA could re-open these routes, however, I do not think that AA could add any additional flights into Brazil or Argentina at the moment due to regulatory constraints.
Hardiwv From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 17, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 1752 times:
Dutchjet:
Very good point.
Let me shed some light on this issue. This week United published a press release about its operations in Brazil. Currently UA operates flight from GRU and GIG to ORD and IAD. UA stated that 40% of its total pax flying from Brazil to the US used its connection service in ORD and IAD. The connections with higher demand were:
1. LAX;
2. BOS;
3. DEN;
This proves that there is demand for the US West Coast, but as you mentioned, maybe airlines don't operate more flight there because of restrictions in bilateral agreements.
Marambio From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 18, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 1731 times:
And we should add the AR flight LAX-LIM that continues to EZE...
AR does not fly to LAX, either non-stop or whatsoever.
They are interested on starting the route. An FAA delegation is in Argentina to check out whether we can be upgraded to Cat1 again. Apparently we will.
The A310 doesn't have the range for EZE-LAX non-stop, while the A342s are already busy and the route loads' are not enough for a B744. This basically means it should be flown via some other South American city. Some rumors state AR will pick LIM, but as of now those are still ideas and no official comments have been made.
During the 1980s and early 1990s, AR flew EZE-MEX-LAX with a Boeing 747SP. For a short period of time, between 1999 and 2000, they flew EZE-LAX non-stop with an A342.
LAXINTL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 19, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 1724 times:
Believe it or not LAX-South America is really not that big a market.
The California Hispanic population is by far mostly either from Mexico or Central America.
According to census information, from nearly about 6 million hispanics, only about 200,000 are from South America with Peruvians being the largest group with 53,000 residents.
Several South American carriers have served Los Angeles in the past including Aero Peru, Aerolineas Argentinas, Saeta, Ecuatoriana and Avianca however each has discontinued service for one reason or the other.
LVZXV From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 20, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 1719 times:
Marambio:
Why did AR turn down a 5th A342 earlier this year? I know they chose B744s instead, but surely one more A340 would make a difference and be useful as a back-up aircraft, especially since the active A340 fleet has been down at 3 aircraft since May due to the 8C-Checks (-ZPX must be nearly ready, no?).
And how many destinations did the 747SP serve? The last time I flew on an AR 747, circa 1990, I seem to remember it being unusually small. Did the -SP serve any European destinations?
Argento From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 21, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1601 times:
The SP was used most of the time for the EZE-LIM-MEX-LAX route during the 80s.I know that the AR 747SP was the first to link EZE with FCO non-stop in 1982.In 1982 was not normal to take a point to point flight from to Buenos Aires to Europe ,you have to stop at GRU(VRC)-GIG ,and some times Dakar, specially in the 60s and 70s.
AR used the SP some times to Europe and other destinations in USA , but it was not a regular visitor.
The A340-200 is perfect for AR ,performing long thin routes like EZE-AKL-SYD, to FCO, JFK,(LAX,CDG).
Arcano From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 22, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 1576 times:
Hardiwv:
LAN has some seasonal non stop flights SCL-LAX, during our austral summer, so maybe this year they will restart it, as a combination with the regiular flight 600 EZE-SCL-LIM-LAX
The777Man From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 24, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 1539 times:
Would be nice to see RG fly their 777s to LAX.... Any idea when/if they are getting PP-VRE and PP-VRF (ex-UA N205UA, N207UA) ? It seems to me that it would make sense for RG to have their best and most comfortable aircraft to fly their longest route and if/when they get more 777s, they should have enough of them to fly them to Japan via LAX.
The777Man
25 LVZXV: 777Man: Would be nice to see RG fly their 777s to LAX.... Any idea when/if they are getting PP-VRE and PP-VRF (ex-UA N205UA, N207UA)? November. And I
26 The777Man: Thanks, LV-ZXV! Any idea where they will be flying them ? The777Man
27 LVZXV: 777Man: All I know is that RG are ditching some of their MD-11s (and acquiring more!). Maybe Hardiwv or someone in Brazil could answer your question.
28 Ktachiya: AMS Interesting that Japanese Brazilians are going through Europe. So Varig can't fill the Brazil-United States-Japan routes anymore? Is the same kind
29 TBCITDG: I was very surprised at how expensive LA is compared to other carriers from LAX to EZE. I suppose that thy have the best connections (LIM) and no comp
30 Arcano: TBCITDG: Weird thing, a friend of mine founded that it was much cheaper to flight in business EZE-LAX than SCL-LAX by LAN, so he flew in coach to Ezei
31 TBCITDG: Interesting point. I have friends that are traveling to Argentina for summer from the states and the prices that they where quoted was far more than t
32 Arcano: Actually, TA and CM has very good fares for us from/to USA, so LAN starts to compete in Chile based on service, Lan Pass, direct flights and wide bodi
33 Hardiwv: The777Man: ZXV: RG's new 777 will NOT operate to LAX. They will operate to FRA and CDG-AMS. RG is also planning to start flights GRU-MUC-PEK, with the
34 The777Man: Thanks for the update, Hardi. I know that RG have talked about the route to PEK for a while. You really think this is going to happen early next year
35 Hardiwv: The777Man: Varig already has an agreement to operate the route with Air China, and the crew would be from both airlines on a RG metal. However, the de
36 LVZXV: Hardi: Can you by any chance explain the "juggling" taking place within RG's MD-11 fleet? Until when does RG plan to operate them? ZXV
37 Hardiwv: LVZXV: I really dont have any precise information. I asked this very question many times. In my point of view, RG's MD11 would serve better as cargo a
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