In summary: FA had an online semi-fictional diary, where names of the airline and cities were changed, but she then had some photos, one of which showed her "wings"... and Delta aren't terribly happy.
Lufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 2261 posts, RR: 10 Reply 4, posted (5 years 1 month 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 11992 times:
Equal opportunites should throw the book at Delta over this one.
This sounds like over-stressed managers to me, simply having knee-jerk reactions to things. What is this going to do to Staff morale? It is already low enough thanks to the current state of the company, further upsetting the workforce because middle level knitwhits are short sighted isn't going to help.
Seriously, what has this girl done to hurt Delta? It isn't like she posted pictures of gay sex in the delta uniform, (although a lesbian gang bang in the delta uniform could well get them more customers).
I might add, that any member of the travelling public could take a picture of the staff, and post it on their website. There is nothing to stop them. So this definately is an impingement on free-speech. This could go as far as the Sumpreme court if this girl wanted and end up making DL look pretty bad.
If anybody should be fired, it should be the short sighted idiot responsible for this decision.
Qb001 From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2050 posts, RR: 5 Reply 5, posted (5 years 1 month 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 11930 times:
Delta has been blamed in the past for similar "conservative" actions. For instance, when PanAm went belly-up and Delta took over their assets, including former PA employees, Delta made sure that they would only hire F/A that were married, no divorced ones. I don't know what happened afterward, but it goes to show what Delta's philosophy is.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
JumboJet From United States, joined Dec 2003, 1159 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (5 years 1 month 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 11892 times:
Sounds to me like some over jealous boss, or more likely, someone reacting to something so miniscule and innocent, that they need a reality check. The F/A is in uniform and is doing nothing indecent at all. Delta has to be kidding me. If anything, I am sure she can be quite an asset to the airline and an attractive way of drumming up miuch needed business.
Type-rated From United States, joined Sep 1999, 2256 posts, RR: 28 Reply 7, posted (5 years 1 month 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 11848 times:
Ob001:
You are right about the DL philosophy, ideally DL wants "the preachers daughter" type of F/A. I am good freinds with several, and they truly are the preachers daughter!
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
Isitsafenow From United States, joined Feb 2004, 4124 posts, RR: 32 Reply 8, posted (5 years 1 month 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 11777 times:
I will hire her in a New York minute...not as an F/A but how 'bout sales rep? If she can't get in the door for a sales pitch, no one can. She would make a heck of a lot more $$$$$ too. Sales people usually do over most airline folks.
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
Ord From United States, joined Jul 1999, 1315 posts, RR: 1 Reply 9, posted (5 years 1 month 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 11711 times:
"For instance, when PanAm went belly-up and Delta took over their assets, including former PA employees, Delta made sure that they would only hire F/A that were married, no divorced ones."
This is totally incorrect. Sometimes I don't know where this stuff comes from. I personally know some ex-Pan Am divorced staff from New York hired by Delta. Besides, asking someone their marital status and/or using it to determine hiring/firing is completely illegal.
B747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 10, posted (5 years 1 month 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 11705 times:
I've been corresponding with Ellen on this issue (we were put in touch by mutual acquaintances) for a few weeks now and my understanding is that she has filed a complaint against Delta with the EEOC. Delta's track record in these situations is to offer a settlement after a few months, so we'll see what transpires.
Avek00 From United States, joined Oct 2004, 3254 posts, RR: 22 Reply 11, posted (5 years 1 month 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 11609 times:
1. Given her blogging, as well as her participation on FlyerTalk after having already been sanctioned for her blogging activities, I'm actually of the opinion that Delta should terminate her.
2. Delta has had more EEOC complaints filed against it than any other major airline, so this is not new to them. Given the actions of the FA, I think that Delta Corporate actually stands a good chance of prevailing in a EEOC showdown.
Thank you for choosing Continental Airlines, a member of the Star Alliance network.
DesertJets From United States, joined Feb 2000, 6919 posts, RR: 29 Reply 12, posted (5 years 1 month 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 11459 times:
Blogging, or any internet related activity pertaining to the specifics of your job and employer is a pretty tricky area. Companies that are more sensitive and/or less techno-culturally inclined would certainly react more strongly to such things.
I do not see what the specific grounds for suspension are, nor do I know any of Delta's specific HR policies and how they may or may not apply.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
Airgeek12 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 13, posted (5 years 1 month 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 11108 times:
Who cares about "pretty tricky areas"! It's NOT a matter of national security- and that is taking away her freedom of speech! If I were her I would be suing!
Ctbarnes From United States, joined Mar 2000, 3491 posts, RR: 55 Reply 14, posted (5 years 1 month 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 10985 times:
Delta has a long history of displaying something of a puritannical streak in their employee relations. In the 1980's DL fired a flight attendant for baring her bottom for (I think) Playboy. I'll go out on a limb and say that it has a lot to do with Delta's southern-style paternalistic culture more than anything. Even though that culture has been badly eroded in the last 10 years, it still asserts itself at times.
Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
Flybyguy From United States, joined Jun 2004, 1621 posts, RR: 1 Reply 15, posted (5 years 1 month 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 10979 times:
Airgeek12,
US companies don't give a rat's ass about your 1st Amendment rights, but whine and complain when theirs are being infringed upon. The irony of it all is that Delta and other US companies will not hesitate to exercise their 5th amendment (against self-incrimination) rights should they be caught in a debacle.
I sympathize with her, however, the fact of the matter is that she should have been more careful. The rather seductive photo of her in the BBC article is the one that Delta is going to use against her.
"Are you a pretender... or a thoroughbred?!" - Professor Matt Miller
FLY2LIM From United States, joined May 2004, 1160 posts, RR: 13 Reply 16, posted (5 years 1 month 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 10969 times:
So many labor relations lawyers on A.net!!!!
Has anyone seen the wording on DL's labor contract? They probably have a provision that you may not "misrepresent" the airline. This usually applies to people (for example) picketing or lobbying on behalf of a cause while representing the employer (i.e., wearing the uniform). I believe her blogging was totally harmless until she displayed an image that clearly identifies her employer. I am not a lawyer, but I believe that most companies have specific clauses in their contract regarding this.
Until we know the facts (we can probably get good info from a fellow DL f/a), I think people should quit talking about "freedom of speech". As someone said, the internet is a "gray area" and people are getting fired daily for behavior they wouldn't otherwise display outside the internet.
My opinion.
FLY2LIM
BR715-A1-30 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 18, posted (5 years 1 month 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 10360 times:
I support her 100%.. She needs to get Delta back for this one. Like she said on her site, she wouldn't be surprised if they tried to blame their pending bankruptcy on her. Neither would I.... Just another reason why Delta isn't
D E L T A A I R L I N E S. Anymore
Kellmark From United States, joined Dec 2000, 568 posts, RR: 8 Reply 19, posted (5 years 1 month 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 10099 times:
If an employee violates a clear company policy that prohibits them from representing the company in a certain way, then the company has the right to take action. It is to protect their own public image and good will. This is particularly sensitive when the employee is doing something in their uniform that the company would not approve of.
That doesn't mean that I would agree that the employee should be fired, but certainly that company has the right to protect their public image in an appropriate way. The policy also should be spelled out clearly. Every employee agrees to the policy when they are hired.
Regarding the Delta-Pan Am situation when Delta took on Pan Am employees and interviewed them, they were indeed sued by flight attendants and it was because of improper questions that were asked during the interview, such as age, ethnicity etc. In fact I had a personal experience of my own with Delta's HR back then, as during an interview for another position, I was asked how old I was, what my ethnic background was, in effect what my religion was,all of which are entirely illegal. Subsequently I called a colleague that I knew at Delta in a relevant management department and advised him about it, and he was surprised about it, as I knew and he realized that they would be vulnerable if they continued the practice. Later, they were sued by a number of the Pan Am flight attendants who were being interviewed in that same time period.
Hopefully, after that they changed their practices. Since then I have heard a lot of good things about the company from friends who work there and I really wish them the best.
Crj 900 From Canada, joined Mar 2001, 490 posts, RR: 1 Reply 20, posted (5 years 1 month 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9240 times:
It was probably some hair hoppin old bag with skin like a well cooked chicken at DL HDQ in ATL that saw the blog of this attractive young lady and decided to make her life miserable. The more power to QofS and I hope DL get a ton of bad press worldwide over this.
STLGph From United States, joined Oct 2004, 8042 posts, RR: 32 Reply 21, posted (5 years 1 month 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9171 times:
Yes, but this is a freedom of speech issue. In the historic Falwell vs. Hustler Magazine case, the Supreme Court ruled "the first amendment must account for satire and that no reasonable person would take satire comments seriously."
In this case, she changed the name of the company she worked for and the cities she flew to. From what I read of her blog, she did not misrepresent Delta Air Lines.
She could win big time on this one.
Eternal darkness we all should dread. It's hard to party when you're dead.
N1120a From United States, joined Dec 2003, 23531 posts, RR: 88 Reply 22, posted (5 years 1 month 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9110 times:
She has a very good complaint. While DL may have a covenant about misrepresentation, that likely does not cover satire in a non-employee capacity. Satire is protected speech and courts frown upon contracts that infringe upon first amendment rights, if this one trys to prevent that
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
Avek00 From United States, joined Oct 2004, 3254 posts, RR: 22 Reply 23, posted (5 years 1 month 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9024 times:
Let's make one thing perfectly clear: this is NOT a freedom of speech issue. The First Amendment prevents the GOVERNMENT from infringing upon your right to free speech; PRIVATE INSTITUTIONS like Delta are permitted to limit the communications of those within its purview. Heck, Delta itself even established a precedent for employer rights to limit employee communications with the public in the Marsh v. Delta Air Lines case.
Thank you for choosing Continental Airlines, a member of the Star Alliance network.
FLY2LIM From United States, joined May 2004, 1160 posts, RR: 13 Reply 24, posted (5 years 1 month 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 8939 times:
She has a very good complaint. While DL may have a covenant about misrepresentation, that likely does not cover satire in a non-employee capacity. Satire is protected speech and courts frown upon contracts that infringe upon first amendment rights, if this one trys to prevent that
Nice try, unless your contract SPECIFICALLY states that you may not misrepresent your employer. I don't believe DL has an issue (or a valid case) against a familiar face doing a blog. However, she posed in her uniform in one of their airplanes. She did no harm, you say? For some reason, we are all able to identify her employer because of the uniform she was wearing in the picture.
When Hustler does a parody/satire on Jerry Falwell, neither party was in a binding contract with the other. Jerry Falwell was pissed, and he sued for (can't remember the legal term) having his image "tarnished". Different story and, again, I'm not a lawyer.
It's incredible how ignorant people are about the extent of the first amendment rights and what people can do with them.
Avek00 From United States, joined Oct 2004, 3254 posts, RR: 22 Reply 25, posted (5 years 1 month 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 8926 times:
It's incredible how ignorant people are about the extent of the first amendment rights and what people can do with them.
Agreed - as much as American society champions freedom of speech/assembly/religion/congregation/etc. in everyday practice, it formally applies to a relatively small area of domain (state action).
Thank you for choosing Continental Airlines, a member of the Star Alliance network.
26 Lrockeagle: I would find a reason to fly if there were more F/As like QofS
27 Nealcg: No offense folks..I read her Blog..got bored after about 5 minutes...She seems incredibly immature...29 going on 16 perhaps...Yawn
28 Jhooper: They're looking for ways to downsize staff, and if a seemingly insignificant reason to fire someone presents itself, surely they'll take advantage of
29 PacificWestern: And this blogging incident is the greatest of Delta's troubles? I wonder if they have ever sat down and made a list of their priorities. I don't live
31 Whitehatter: Watch Virgin America offer her a job.....it used to be one of Branson's favourite publicity stunts. When someone got fired at BA and screamed over sim
32 Skyhawk: First of all, when this person was hired by Delta, as other companies I am sure, she was required to sign that she would in NO WAY discredit her compa
33 BR715-A1-30: But when she decided to post the pictures, that was in their opinion enough to warrant the term "discrediting". If you weren't told she worked for Del
34 Fjnovak1: Hmmm, well she has big feet but she IS hot- I'd certainly like to chill with her on a beach somewhere, no question! I have, however, seen hotter Delta
35 JumboJet: Just another example of political correctness gone mad! The management at Delta clearly need to lighten up and get a sense of humour. Would the conten
36 Avek00: But come on now....is this matter as serious as Delta makes it out to be Yes, it very much is. Delta has every right to control its interfacing with t
37 Chgoflyer: ORD. where did you come up with the fiction that PA F/A had to be married when they joined Delta. Not true. I hope Delta's foot print is on this one's
38 DeltaMIA: What is the difference. Is her uniform top secret. I guess DL should kill me now, cuz I flew them and saw their uniforms Its different if you work for
39 Lufthansa: Trademark violation my ass. One thing, in almost every country, that one has to prove when suing is that Material damage was suffered. It isn't enough
40 L410Turbolet: I think many of you made many valid points and this case brings up many interesting topics for discussion regarding employer/employee's rights, how mu
41 Zippyjet: Dear Queen of the skies and the rest of my A-Net friends: Any airline that names a subsidiary Song is whacked to say the least. Folks I'm afraid this
42 B747-437B: FWIW, I emailed this thread to Ellen yesterday and she is reading it now. Just an FYI...
43 N1120a: >It's incredible how ignorant people are about the extent of the first amendment rights and what people can do with them. Agreed - as much as American
44 BoeingFever777: Not sure how that is a violation of Delta policy. Hope she gets her job back. BoeingFever777,
45 Qqflyboy: I just hope she contacts the ACLU. They would be the best organization to have on her side. If this were to go to court, I am most certain the judge w
46 N1120a: You know what, in that picture, she is not showing anything that says "Delta". She is not associating herself with DL in the picture, even if people k
47 MCOtoATL: If I was management at Delta, I too would be upset with her immature actions. While some may argue that there is nothing wrong with her displaying her
48 L410Turbolet: Perhaps she previously made some disparaging remarks about her employer (which was okay because they were not mentioned be name.) But now we know who
49 BENNETT123: I agree with replies 28, 40 and 46. It is far from obvious in the photo that the uniform is Delta. I for one did not realise. Furthermore, the image i
50 Avek00: "She was doing this independently of Delta and not as part of her work. Much like people who have made statements to Untied and Northworst she is allo
53 Aa777jr: So they want to downsize staff, but they just made the news...hmm...I'm thinking this is gonna have a negative effect on DL.
54 SimProgrammer: Can I ask what is blogging ? Blogging is abbreviated from weblog Someone who keeps a log that is available on the web is called a blogger.
55 MidnightMike: She was in a Delta uniform with her Delta ID card hanging on her neck, picture was taken on a airplane, that could be Delta. Most employee manuals ha
56 Nealcg: Folks, Folks, Folks Not to burst any bubbles but this "Breaking Story"is really big news...on Airliners.net. I don't think there are any DL F/A's ligh
57 FLY2LIM: I am ignoring all the stupid and immature comments made by people who, obviously, have no knowledge of simple rules of common sense, which I believe s
58 BoeingFever777: FLY2LIM I am ignoring all the stupid and immature comments made by people who, obviously, have no knowledge of simple rules of common sense, which I b
59 Nealcg: FLY2LIM, You just made my respected users list....
60 Aa767400: Lufthansa, So gay sex would be more unacceptable than heterosexual sex?
61 Isitsafenow: Looking again at the photo, at a glance I do not see the word Delta or a Delta logo but the picture was not taken at Seven-Eleven or in a back seat of
62 Yyz717: 1. Given her blogging, as well as her participation on FlyerTalk after having already been sanctioned for her blogging activities, I'm actually of the
63 FLY2LIM: Do you talk like this to your students? Why don't you keep your insults to yourself. Can't say anything nice, keep your mouth shut! BoeingFever777, B
64 N1120a: >The fact that she did this independently actually makes matters worse. Gives credence to Delta's argument that she was interacting with the public wi
65 USAFHummer: Well, according to her blog right now, Delta has fired her, and the picture s in question are back up...discuss... Greg
66 Convair990: After seeing the snapshots I'm not surprised at the outcome (although I personally loved the snapshots....hehe), hopefully she'll apply to AA and I ca
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