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WN To Do Away With Unassigned Seating?  
User currently offlineKITH From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 378 posts, RR: 1
Posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 6515 times:

I just saw on the news from NYC (WB11) for those in the area, during the business report section that WN will start to assign seats in the near future. "Southwest feels that they can do this without adding any time to the boarding process, and many passengers see the unassigned seating as a hassle." Just another TV news rumor?

61 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6442 times:

>>>Just another TV news rumor?

No, just a TV station's mangling of the story...

Check this out...

http://yahoo.reuters.com/financeQuoteCompanyNewsArticle.jhtml?duid=mtfh43265_2004-10-28_18-00-08_n28472928_newsml

It says SWA is considering it. That's a long way from being a done deal...


User currently offlineLtbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13113 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6421 times:

It would probably be a good idea for WN for the growing number of longer/transcon flights they operate. For a short flight (up to 2 hours), it probably isn't a big deal, but on longer flights, it makes it too difficult to have families and groups to seat together, to prevent hassles over who got to check in or gate first. It would be nice to do this via electronic check in.

User currently offlineQwerty From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 386 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6388 times:

it probably isn't a big deal, but on longer flights, it makes it too difficult to have families and groups to seat together,

Most families line up together. Unless they are assigned in boarding group C, they usually end up together, otherwise seperation is no more than a row or an aisle.

For young kids, where families really need to get together, assigned seating is called preboarding.


User currently offlineORDflyer From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 511 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6381 times:

I think for now its just another rumor...this topic came up a few months ago and I believe the consensus was that WN has been considering this for some time now, but no firm plans are in place.

User currently offlineGuitrThree From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2049 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 6285 times:

The problem I see with WN's non assigned seats is in the connection, if you have one. I fly from BNA, where it's great to fly to Las Vegas or Chicago, many non-stops. However, if you are flying to a location that requires a connection, you might be SOL if your first flight is delayed for any reason. Shoot, you could show up 4 HOURS early for your first leg, get an "A" ticket, but then the first flight gets delayed, and you and your wife get off, have to deal with one of those quick check-in kiosks, and get a "C" ticket, then be sitting rows away from your wife or other family members. That's not right. Why can't they just assign seats? I've flown SWA 3 times this year (5 flights total) and 3 of the 5 flights we were waiting on people to give up (move) their seats so some family could sit together. In September when I boarded a UA ETOPS 757 at Lihue, Hawaii, they boarded it just as fast as a WN 737 and there was no "seat shuffling." I don't get it. BUT.. that being said, WN brings me $99 flights to LAS & LAX, and $38 to MID. I'm going to fly them every time. And, not only that, the competition reduces all airline prices out of BNA, which lets me fly Delta cheaper. AND now that Frontier is flying to Cancun from BNA.. look out!! I love competition!


As Seen On FlightRadar24! Radar ==> F-KBNA5
User currently offlineFlyer737sw From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 135 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 6252 times:

As far as I know...The whole reason why Southwest dosen't use assigned seating is because thats what the passengers wanted...It's hard for me to believe that it wont take more time if there were assigned seating...Just more BS in my book...
The average ground time for our planes is 26 minutes...It's already hard enough to turn a plane in that time frame, let alone full pax on and off...
So say, because of all this it did happen, and that average time currently moved to say 35 mintues of ground time...
For Example, Aircraft N334SW has 12 routes scheduled in a particular day with an average ground time of 26 mintues...Now all of a sudden that time increases to 35 minutes...Thats 9 more mintues of ground time at each city for the entire day...Times that by 12 legs and you get 108 minutes...Thats 108 minutes of less flying time, which would equal to one less flight per day for that aircraft...Let alone the 400+ in our fleet...
Just something to look at...

I doubt it will happen

Kevin


User currently offlineGuitrThree From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2049 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 6200 times:

From what I understand, the unassigned seats only saves time in bookings. That way, WN doesn't have to pay the operators to look for "4 seats behind the wing," "in front of the wing," "closest to the bathroom," "isn't the exit row open?" etc, etc. Just think of all the time you would save by not moving families around the plane so all the little trolls could sit with mommy and daddy. You could keep your 26 minute turn around time boarding by zone. And, respectfully, I disagree with the idea of WN having unassigned seats because the passengers want it. If that's the case, (1) Why are they considering even thinking about changing it, and (2) why haven't all other carriers done this? If I, along with many other travelers, KNOW they have a SEAT BY NUMBER, they would simply feel better. True, this might lead to passengers sitting in the bar for one more beer because they have a "seat," but there is an equal amount of WN flyers who sit there and drink another beer because they can board any time, especially business travelers flying alone. And finally, and most importantly, (3) If you ask ANYONE, what would you rather do, sit in a seat (at the terminal) and wait for the boarding to start, or stand in a line for an hour so you can get a good seat and/or sit with your traveling group? There is NO ONE at SWA that can convince me that passengers would rather stand in line just to sit with family. NO ONE. They stand in line for an hour just SO they can sit with their companions, not because they prefer standing. If the reason given by WN for unassigned seats is "because passengers prefer it," I simply can't believe that.
Again, I continue to fly WN because of price, but if Frontier in Nashville could offer the same flights to Las Vegas, Chicago, etc, and keep the same price, you better think I wouldn't hesitate to fly them or anyone who offers the same price over WN, even if it's on an Airbus!!
The UA flight I took to Lihue in September arrived in SFO and sat on the runway, gate 88, for about an hour and a half before boarding started. I noticed a large number of UA planes just sitting there. Their boarding problems aren't with the passengers, it's the fact that the scheduling doesn't keep them flying.



As Seen On FlightRadar24! Radar ==> F-KBNA5
User currently offlineFlyer737sw From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 135 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 6145 times:

That is the main reason why Southwest does the online boarding pass...Its an easy way to get in group A or B without having to show up at the airport 2 hours ahead of time...And Its convienent...

Kevin


User currently offlineGuitrThree From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2049 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 6136 times:

Sure, you can use the online check in, but you still have to stand in line to and wait when you get to the airport. Stand for sometimes and hour. That's not customer service, in my mind. And, besides that, I tried the online check-in. It doesn't work if you have multipule passengers (meaning more than one) made under the same reservation. That does me no good if I'm not alone. And even if it did, again, I'd arrive at the airport early just to still have to stand in the "A" line. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate SWA, but the unassigned seats is not and never will be because the passengers requested it.

[Edited 2004-10-29 08:59:53]


As Seen On FlightRadar24! Radar ==> F-KBNA5
User currently offlineFlyer737sw From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 135 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 6123 times:

Maybe there was a glitch in the computer system...If you are in group A why would you want to stand in line for an hour anyway...Group A is the first 45 passengers on the plane...Just sit and wait till the first 44 get on then you go...Everybody is different I guess...

Kevin


User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 6067 times:

I think WN's seating policy now is one of their only negatives. It is confusing and does make connecting a pain in the ass. It is also one of the major reasons I avoid WN if I can. I would gladly pay an extra $10 a trip to have an assigned seat.

User currently offlineBroke From United States of America, joined Apr 2002, 1322 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 6030 times:

With many airlines matching Southwest's fares on many segments and many of their routings requiring a change of planes, the lack of preassigned seating is something that keeps me from flying them. In addition, with the TSA being able to pull you out of line anytime they want, being at the front of the line for a Southwest flight doesn't help either.
Unless I can get a much better fare on Southwest, I don't even consider them when planning a trip.


User currently offlineZrb2 From United States of America, joined May 2000, 896 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 6012 times:

The stampede for the boarding line is the most annoying thing. There is something to be said for just sitting and relaxing until your row is called. If my wife and I are traveling, I now have learned to book under two separate reservations, therefore we can check in on-line. That has been a great help and "eased the pressure" of having to get their early to grab the precious A boarding card.
I definitely support Assigned seating if they choose to implement it.


User currently offlineBicoastal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5998 times:

As many forum users know, I'm not a Southwest fan. One of the reasons has been the fact that they seemingly have ignored customer preferences in favor of doing it "their way or (literally) the highway." It's good to see that with increased competition from other low cost carriers with assigned seating and entertainment options, that Southwest is doing what it takes to remain competitive. This involves being a bit more sensitive to customer preferences.

User currently offlineSWAFA30 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5963 times:

I think when Colleen et al, talk about Customers "wanting" Open Seating they don't mean people are writing passionate letters begging the company to keep Open Seating. Rather, Customers aren't writing passionate letters threatening to never fly Southwest again if they don't start assigning seats. I think the vast majority of our passengers feel about Open Seating like SWA feels about the Wright Ammendment...."passionately neutral". If Assigned Seating were really of utmost importance to the majority of Customers, they would simply fly someone else. It has been pointed out repeatedly that the other major carriers...all of whom will happily assign you a seat... match or beat SWA fares on competing routes. Most Customers only fly a trip or two per year if that and it's just not a big deal. It's an annoyance(in some cases) but an annoyance they have learned to adapt to and live with. If the change comes about, it will simply be a response to pressure(real or imagined) from v2.0 LCCs. The "Canyon Blue" paint is getting slapped on as fast as they can mix it. The leather seating retrofit is 75% complete, the snazzy new uniforms for the frontline are rolling out and now seat assignments may be in the offing. All SWA needs now are PTVs and the transformation to "jetBlue with Boeings" will be complete. Blue Potato Chips anyone?

[Edited 2004-10-29 15:32:25]

User currently offlineATLhomeCMH From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 770 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5936 times:

Giving assigned seats would, IMO, do WN some good.

I remember watching an episode of Airline and hearing the MDW CSA Supervisor respond to an agitated customer's criticism of their lack of assigned seating by saying, "We don't assign seats b/c it streamlines the boarding process."

I laughed out loud and said "Are you f@%#ing kidding me?!?!"

Every WN flight I've ever been on has been delayed for the simple reason that people would not take their seats b/c nobody wants the middle seat.

Arguments broke out b/w pax. The f/a's had to make several anouncements...each one increasing in agitation...of, "In order for an ontime departure, we ask that you find an open seat at this time." This is why, for me personally, I won't fly WN unless its an absolutely unavoidable last resort.

Maybe its just CMH. Maybe its just my own dumb luck. But, I'm willing to bet that if WN is having these types of consistent problems here at CMH, they're having it across the country.

And I know that WN is (somehow) one of the most on-time carriers, but if you're always striving to be better than what you are, then WN should introduce it on selected segments and see how it goes. They've got the cash reserves to afford to try new things which might enhance their business.



"The most terrifying words in the Engligh language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'"-Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineSteveswa737 From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 154 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 5823 times:

Every WN flight I've ever been on has been delayed for the simple reason that people would not take their seats b/c nobody wants the middle seat.

If you think delays happen at WN because of our open seating policy, just wait to see what happens if we start assigning seats. We will have to train employees and passengers to change the way they have been doing things for the past 33 years. This will cause numerous delays throughout our system for quite a wile. I have witnessed on several occasions turning around a plane with 137 off and 137 on in 25 minutes. If it aint broken, dont fix it.

Here's how I see it:

Group A are usually people who are so adamant about getting a good seat that they get to the airport super early or print out their boarding card online the day of departure at 12:01am. They are usually people who fly us a lot and are very aware of our system.

Group B are usually people who want a good seat but for some reason or another just couldn't get there earlier than those over achieving A people. The B group people are also somewhat aware of our system and probably flies with us from time to time.

Group C are usually people who will never get to the airport early and could care less where they sit. They don't know and they don't care what type of aircraft they are on. They only want to get from point A to Point B on-time and safely. They will usually fly any airline that will get them where the want to go for the cheapest fare.

I understand that most people on this forum would have their world collapse if they had to sit in a middle seat, but there are people out there who really don't care. Besides, someone has to sit in the middle seat. If its not the people in the C group at WN, it will be someone who is assigned that middle seat on another airline.

I realize that I am generalizing our boarding groups and not every situation will be the same. So save your stories about how you got to the airport 12 hours early and ended up in the C group with a middle seat. It's just an observation form someone who works on a WN 737 8-10 hours a day 3-4 days a week. Just my 2 cents.

Steve


User currently offlineUA744KSFO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 5791 times:

I have no problem flying LCC's. In Australia, I'll fly DJ anytime. In Canada, I'll fly WS anytime, and in the US, I'll fly on B6, HP, or F9 anytime.

That being said, I try to avoid WN as much as possible because I simply can't stand the cattle call. Although I can check in on-line on the outbound trip (and get an A boarding card), I can't always do so on the return trip, especially if I'm at a hotel or a relative's house where they have no Internet (this is usually the case with older relatives). Then I'm having to worry about getting to the airport in time to at least get in the B group, and even that rarely happens. In addition, the whole boarding crowd has to jump up and scramble as soon as the first boarding announcement is made. I'd rather wait over by the window looking at airplanes until the anxious people are onboard, and then when the line has died down a bit, get on the plane.

You can be an LCC and have assigned seating. If WN had that, I probably wouldn't try to avoid them. However, my preference is for being able to get an assigned seat, and I book travel accordingly.


User currently offlineATLhomeCMH From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 770 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 5745 times:

If its not the people in the C group at WN, it will be someone who is assigned that middle seat on another airline.

That's not the point. I agree that we all have to suck it up and take the middle from time to time.

But, the point is that when a CMH-MDW flight is delayed 25 mins ONLY b/c Grandma Jones and College Student Joe argue that they want to sit next to their family members in the same row, there is a problem. And as I said, if it happens here at CMH, it surely happens elsewhere.

Plus, your line of thinking is supported by the incorrect assumption that you don't have a choice on the majors. With most major carriers, if you book far enough in advance you'll get to pick your seat, assuming you're not flying during a peak season.

If you're flying last minute, well...as they say..."Them's the breaks."

If you think delays happen at WN because of our open seating policy, just wait to see what happens if we start assigning seats.

It's easy to say that, sure. That's the knee-jerk reaction. But how will you know? Major carriers are delayed b/c of high traffic volume at hub cities that they have to transit through (evidenced by recent efforts in ORD and ATL to change that), or other issues (pilot scheduling, maintenance, idiots who don't get to the airport on time, etc), not necessarily b/c of boarding delays.

WN doesn't rely as much on a hub system, which is a big contributing factor to why they have a good on-time rate...not b/c their boarding process is efficient!




"The most terrifying words in the Engligh language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'"-Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineSmAlbany From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 285 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 5730 times:


I have to agree with UA744KSFO. I think that WN going to assigned seating will be a large improvement. The long lines for boarding are the only part of flying WN that I dislike.


User currently offlineSwafa30 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 5713 times:

WN doesn't rely as much on a hub system, which is a big contributing factor to why they have a good on-time rate...not b/c their boarding process is efficient!

SWA's devotion to efficiency and "looking for a better way" is slavish if not obsessive. If assigning seats got aircraft of the gate sooner and could be done so in a cost effective manner, we would have been doing it for decades... period. If assigned seating is implemented it will be done so in an effort to retain or lure back Customers who have been siphoned away to other carriers.








User currently offlineAirgeek12 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 5691 times:

I don't like unassigned seating, like on Southwest. I like having assigned seating- or else people are fighting over seats. ...and sometimes familys aren't able to sit together.

I also think (because of the reason listed above), that planes would get off the ground quicker with assigned boarding/seating.


User currently offlineAeronuts From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 114 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5583 times:

I am no fan of SWA. But here's a case and point where unassigned seating works.

Monday this week, my team and I had a last minute meeting in the LA area. We all made our last minute reservations late Saturday last week. Being a loyal UA, Exec Premier flyer, I of course made my reservation on the UAL flight out of SFO, while my team made theirs on SWA out of SJC. Here's how it went, being a last minute reservation, I had a ticket issued, but no seat assignment. At the airport check-in on Monday, still had no seat assignment. Finally after everyone boarded, I got the last middle seat, on the last row on the B737-200 (never sat there before, didn't even know that the last row seats doesn't recline). Meanwhile, my team utilized the SWA on-line check-in Monday morning, all got Group A boarding pass, and sat where they wanted.

Another observation, when ever we travel to the east coast, all of us fly AA/UAL, with assigned seating on connecting flights. Go figure!


User currently offline7E72004 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3587 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5571 times:

I like the "cattle call" process; i just check in early enough to get an A pass, then i just get to the A line at the gate. NOt bad at all  Big thumbs up


The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
25 PROSA : Monday this week, my team and I had a last minute meeting in the LA area. We all made our last minute reservations late Saturday last week. Being a lo
26 Aeronuts : UAL was $100 more, not enough to stop my aging heart.
27 Ckfred : I'm surprised that the FAA and NTSB haven't tried to get rid of open seating on WN. I've read that since airlines have gone to computerized boarding p
28 Goingboeing : Maybe one reason SWA hasn't gone to assigned seats is because they sell more "full fare" tickets than any other carrier. "Full fare" implies last minu
29 ATLhomeCMH : SWA's devotion to efficiency and "looking for a better way" is slavish if not obsessive. If assigning seats got aircraft of the gate sooner and could
30 Ultrapig : Ok here is my very simple answer-When I'm flying for business in a suit I'm generally paying a full fair which even on SW is higher than the discount
31 Steveswa737 : Every WN flight I've ever been on has been delayed for the simple reason that people would not take their seats b/c nobody wants the middle seat. Argu
32 Goingboeing : So, you subscribe to the belief that this sort of thing is solely isolated to Concourse C at Port Columbus International Airport? I guess I am. Since
33 ATLhomeCMH : I guess I am. Since I haven't seen it in Concourse B at MCI, or OKC, or OAK, or MDW, or STL, or FLL, or TPA, or HOU, or MSY, or DAL, or TUL, or BNA, o
34 Steveswa737 : ATLhomeCMH: Its Ok to be critical of WN. I have my own issues with the way we do some things at WN. I just find it hard to believe that you are experi
35 ScottB : "Is that b/c we've reached the heart of the issue--that there really IS a problem w/ WN's boarding practices?" Actually, I'd say that the heart of the
36 Goingboeing : Why? They have assigned seats. They have a boarding pass that tells them, "go directly here," instead of trying to pick their seats aimlessly. YOu mea
37 MHTMDW : Herb, Colleen et al: KEEP UNASSIGNED SEATING!!!!!! The best part of the currest WN boaridng process is that by preboarding all the families with small
38 Aeronuts : Goingboeing, that's a good one. I too wonder why folks wander aimlessly looking for their seats. Every flight, I would see folks (more than one) would
39 Jeffinbwi : Their is a trend in this thread. People want an assigned seat so they can hang out in the boarding area, board when they want to, take their time, you
40 BigB : Southwest doesn't need to assign seats in my opinion, I think asisgned seats only applies to mostly a.netters. I don't think passengers out of a.net d
41 Cactus739 : This is the same dribble we go through on every thread about Southwest! Can't we just let sleeping dogs lie? I've been on more than my fair share of S
42 Goingboeing : I'm surprised that the FAA and NTSB haven't tried to get rid of open seating on WN. I've read that since airlines have gone to computerized boarding p
43 TxAgKuwait : I, too, pray and hope that they keep open seating. But for those that think assigned seats are somehow "safer." Let's say you have a quintet of terror
44 Atrude777 : ATLCMH- I find this hard to believe about ur saying about AA at the airports not having seating problems. you said...(d)the rare time on a major carr
45 Ntspelich : Last night we had a flight delayed by something like 25 minutes because I passenger was demanding a complaint form before the plane took off because h
46 Fanoftristars : All I can say after reading this is thank god for my gold medallion status...lol preferred seating, free unlimited upgrades, preferred boarding, and t
47 UAL-Fan : Boarding "Zone1" 20 past departure time while Southwest makes another on time departure.
48 Bubbinski : Call me strange, but I happen to like the current SWA boarding process, that is because I'm used to it and I make it to the airport at least 90 minute
49 Jerion : Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't ValuJet have open seating? I seem to recall that the NTSB had some problems with the investigation of the Everglad
50 Cactus739 : UAL-FAN LOL! I love it... Fanoftristars, that's great...enjoy flying them. You've obviously found something that works for you so run with it.
51 Silver1SWA : First of all, to those who are refering to this as merely a rumor, I suggest you read the article posted at the begginning of this topic. The assigned
52 Goose : The average ground time for our planes is 26 minutes...It's already hard enough to turn a plane in that time frame, let alone full pax on and off... S
53 Cannikin : ""because passengers prefer it," I simply can't believe that." Believe it! I fly WN BECAUSE of unassigned seating. If they take it away, I'll go back
54 Ntspelich : How many seats are there on WN's -700s? 137
55 Fanoftristars : UAL-Fan While I appreciate your response to the zone-1 issue, and the FAA records will probably show that DL's ontime performance does not match WN's,
56 Unmlobo : For of those of you saying that it would increase their turn times to have assigned seats I don't think that would be the case. As it is right now the
57 ATLhomeCMH : Here's the text of a blurb in USA Today's "Today in the Sky" segment: Southwest to consider assigned seating: Southwest's famed — or is it infamous?
58 Post contains images ExFATboy : I suspect that WN management is finding that as their average flight time has increased, customer dissatisfaction with the "cattle call" increases. Pe
59 Goingboeing : Personally, I'd select another airline before WN for a simply because if I'm going to be on a plane for 3 or 4 hours, I want an aisle seat. Then would
60 UA744KSFO : TxAgKuwait, That is one of the most ridiculous crocs of shit that I have read on here!!!! The idea that open seating thwarts terrorists??????????? Oh,
61 7E72004 : Everyone is entitled to an opinion; i don't think you need to use that vulgarity on here...your message will probably be erased soon as i hope it will
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