Pilotcoex From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (5 years 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 4067 times:
Article on Aviation Week last month. Mr. Bob Crandall (ex AA-CEO) said that there are many factors to blame for the financial situation of the airline industry. One of the main factors is pilot pay. "They are over paid, and under work". I wonder if he knows that a fairly senior CAL F/A makes twice as much as I make. He needs to specify which group of pilots he is talking about.
767-332ER From United States, joined Mar 2001, 2028 posts, RR: 17 Reply 2, posted (5 years 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 4014 times:
I do agree with the underworked part. In terms of the money, well, it has taken years of fighting to get pilot's to the pay levels they enjoy today but I do agree if the unions will ease up a bit and allow airlines to use pilots more, the industry would be better off.
Regards
Twinjets...if one fails, work the other one twice as hard!!!
Aa767400 From United States, joined Jan 2001, 1996 posts, RR: 31 Reply 3, posted (5 years 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3968 times:
Good ole Crandall! The thing about Crandall is that you knew were you stood with him. He hated the unions, and would not sugar coat the fact. He once said that if he could replace the Flight Attendants with Soda machines, he would. All in all, he knew what he was doing.
Planemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 3808 posts, RR: 22 Reply 4, posted (5 years 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3962 times:
Pilotcoex, I am sure that he wasn't referring to you, or any other regional pilot. Without a doubt, you are underpaid vis-a-vis your mainline brethren. The diference in pilot pay has very little to with the amount of work done, and very much to do with simple seniority.
Travellin'man From United States, joined May 2001, 524 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (5 years 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3961 times:
The usual hogwash. Heck, I'm sure he was about to say, "I can get a pilot form a developing nation to work for half!" Management would like us all to work for pennies. Too bad no one's mortgage is decreasing any time soon.
Crew should be compensated for their training, experience, and most of all, the huge responsibility they have when they fly people. It's that simple. Labor is a cost, but it is more a resource to a company, and in this economy, where many workes have been taking cuts, even though the cost of living is skyrocketing, Crandalls' remarks are particularly ill timed and insensitive.
Management keeps squeezing employees for more pay cuts often in order to boost their own profits,despite the fact that there is hardly ever any direct accountability for their own mistakes. I mean if a pilot messes up, they are subject to all sorts of review and scrutiny, eventually even reprimand, if not dismissal. When the company goes south, management is hardly ever there to admit responsibility for bad choices made; they just turn around and wonder in befuddlement at what went wrong, make vague comments about the changing nature and direction of the market, and often then blame labor.
It's disgusting. There is nothing wrong with people being adequately compensated for doing a difficult job well. It is the prosperity society is founded on, not management bleeding workers dry for their own, or shareholder's greater gain.
It is not enough to be rude; one must also be incorrect.
NYCAAer From United States, joined Jul 2004, 584 posts, RR: 6 Reply 6, posted (5 years 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 3956 times:
Uncle Bob is referring to pilots at the legacy carriers, not at regionals or LCCs. I miss him! If we still had him around, we wouldn't be cleaning up Carty's mess.
BA97 From Canada, joined Apr 2004, 367 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (5 years 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 3864 times:
I am not in the business but I understand main line drivers get substantially more than connector drivers. Legacy of agreements and unions?
The pay scale of many industries are out of whack with reality. CEOs in the USA to senior pilots.
An aluminum tube carrying people from a to b controlled by a person who must navigate many rules, make split decisions on safety, navigate numerous unforeseen hazards and requires specialized training....Pilot--no....A Bus driver. The charter or transit driver does not make the same pay or even in a scaled proportion to some pilots. Clearly there is a base line of training that qualifies someone to fly and then to fly certain machines, just like driving. Pay can be reflective of the skill and training required.
There are many jobs in the aviation business that decisions can result in death or serious injury and require special training. There are even more in other sectors of work. Then again the market also looks at the bang for the buck the job brings to the business. The paper machine supervisor at a mill or crane operator o a construction site are the most influential jobs for making sure money is being made fast. They are paid more than the flag man for obvious reasons. More money attracts better people.
It is too bad that there are collective agreements which do not allow supply/demand and open market pricing for a job. Nuke the agreements and see what the market says the job is worth.
there is economy class, business class, first class...then Concorde..pure class
KITH From United States, joined Mar 2004, 316 posts, RR: 1 Reply 8, posted (5 years 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3842 times:
Don't the CEO's have the livlyhoods of 10,000 or usually a lot more employees to worry about when THEY make a decision? I don't know any other industry where the people are paid for responsibility, cops for protecting people or having the power to carry a gun? Firefighters paid to sit around with the weight on their shoulders, no, there paid to fight fires. In some cases, pilots are paid way too much, but in most, they aren't. The regional pay scales make me sick, Crandall knew how to run an airline then....not Sure if anyone does now.-Matt in KITH
Burnsie28 From United States, joined Aug 2004, 6247 posts, RR: 16 Reply 9, posted (5 years 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3836 times:
I do agree with the underworked part. In terms of the money, well, it has taken years of fighting to get pilot's to the pay levels they enjoy today but I do agree if the unions will ease up a bit and allow airlines to use pilots more, the industry would be better off.
Regards
You can only work as much as the government will let you, not to mention, in reality most of them in a way work over 40hrs a week, why because pilots dont get to go home at night with their families, most of the time the are stuck in a hotel a 1000 miles or more away.
"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
N1120a From United States, joined Dec 2003, 23500 posts, RR: 88 Reply 10, posted (5 years 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3834 times:
>Uncle Bob is referring to pilots at the legacy carriers, not at regionals or LCCs. I miss him! If we still had him around, we wouldn't be cleaning up Carty's mess.<
You mean the pilots at LCCs who make more than those at legacy carriers while their airlines still make money?
Travlin'man, you are most definately now respected, as you have put very simply what so many of us have been yelling at the top of our lungs and no one listens too. You have laid out the expectations built up and why labor needs and deserves what they make and how it has been management (Including Mr. Value Pricing) that has frittered away profits on idiotic ventures.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
Planemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 3808 posts, RR: 22 Reply 11, posted (5 years 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3794 times:
BA97, some interesting points. There are clearly flaws in many aspects of collective agreements. An example is that it doesn't make any sense that, due to "seniority rules," a 20-year pilot with 747 experience would end up flying 737's if he were to switch airlines.
Mm320cap From United States, joined Jul 2004, 156 posts, RR: 2 Reply 12, posted (5 years 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 3691 times:
Bob Crandall is a one trick pony. Always has been, always will be. A smart S.O.B., no doubt, but he still has a lot to learn about motivating people. I watched an MSNBC interview with him about a month or so ago and he was asked point blank what the reason was that the airlines are losing so much money. His answer? Employee pay. That's it. By the way, he didn't differentiate between pilots, F/A's, CSR's etc. We are ALL overpaid according to Bob. Of course, no mention of the $10 Million a year CEO or management pay. When the reporter asked him about fuel he said, and I still can't believe this, that it wasn't a factor. His reasoning is that fuel was more expensive in the 70's (adjusted for inflation) than it is now. Well that's fine, but if adjusted fuel to the levels it was last year in the 3rd quarter, United would have made a profit.
Now, I will always admit that Unions have created some of their own problems. At times salaries have been out of whack with the market, but to contend that employee pay is the only problem is just plain ignorant. Actually, it's not. It deceptive, because he knows that it isn't true. In the meantime management types like himself continue to pay themselves millions in bonuses while dragging their airlines into oblivion, protecting their pensions while cancelling their employee's, and taking payraises while many workers lose their homes and take second jobs to make ends meet. Lead by example, that's all I'm saying, and I will follow you all the way to the bottom. Sit their on your yacht sipping your champagne and tell me how I make too much and it becomes hard to want to work harder for less.
By the way, pilot cost per seat mile at United is the third (soon to be 4th with USAir) lowest in the industry - behind JetBlue and AirTran. Yet we continue to lose millions. Smoke that Bob.
FlewGSW From United States, joined Oct 2004, 148 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (5 years 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 3681 times:
Pilots are not overpaid/under worked.
The real issue is that the labor unions have not been able to match pay/work between all the U. S. Carriers. Why would ALPA allow a LCC pilots to get paid SO much less then a legacy pilot? You would think that the unions would want an even playing field with all their members. At GM, Ford and Chrysler, their union agreements just about match each other, leading to a more even playing field.
My opinion is that airline job pay scales were not addressed enough during deregulation discussions back in the 1970's. Congress missed the boat.
Jetdeltamsy From United States, joined Nov 2000, 2965 posts, RR: 11 Reply 14, posted (5 years 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 3634 times:
pilots are not underpaid. they are, however, caught in a situation of oversupply versus demand. there are a lot of commercial caliber passenger plane pilots out there and few jobs for them.
as in any part of the economy, when you've got a huge supply, the cost (or value of each individual) is diminished.
Worked for too many airlines to list. Banktupcy after bankruptcy after bankruptcy.
N771AN From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 16, posted (5 years 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 3596 times:
I think you guys take Crandall's words too literally.
I watched an MSNBC interview with him about a month or so ago and he was asked point blank what the reason was that the airlines are losing so much money. His answer? Employee pay.
Think about that for a moment... and not in the traditional sense!
WesternA318 From United States, joined Oct 2004, 4349 posts, RR: 29 Reply 17, posted (5 years 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 3585 times:
*sigh*
Someone should force Fangs back into AA r DL for that matter, hell, DL would be beterr off if Frank Lorenzo came back and took them over. I could see it now,
"OK, we'll file Ch. 11, tear up the contracts *not possible now* and any pilots that still want to have a job can come back and work harder for less money."
Smoke that, all you DL pilots who are worried about payin off Mercedes-Benz's.
Get that worldly look, one country at a time. Work Hard, Fly Right.
Planemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 3808 posts, RR: 22 Reply 18, posted (5 years 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 3575 times:
Jetdeltamsy, yes, there is an oversupply of pilots... but the pay scales don't reflect that. Pilot salary pressure/reductions in the legacies is due to the mounting airline losses, not from the oversupply of pilots.
To use a "crude" example (pun intended), in the past OPEC kept the price of crude artificially high by limiting excess output capacity. Now the opposite is happening; they can't keep up with demand and the price has shot up.
Pilots will not "make too much" only when the number of pilots entering the job market balances the number of jobs available and equilibrium is reached. Too few pilots -- pay scale moves up to attract more pilots. Too many pilots -- pay scale moves down to reduce number of pilots.
Aa767400 From United States, joined Jan 2001, 1996 posts, RR: 31 Reply 20, posted (5 years 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3505 times:
Avek00, Would you like to state why they are overpaid, instead of just stating that they are? Because they get paid more than in SOME countries, (and I do mean SOME), does not make your point a fact.
Reltney From United States, joined Jun 2004, 162 posts, RR: 1 Reply 21, posted (5 years 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3393 times:
Hey westerna318 person
You sound like a person who doesn't bother with facts. Nothing personal but you just like to believe what some undereducated journalists believe.
I live with in my means and a pay cut is desperately needed at Delta. If you think Pilot pay caused the problem you are out of touch with everything but yourself as everyone has pointed out. Yes YOU ARE CORRECT in addressing a point that some people (but in all professions) overextend themselves. It is kinda like professional sports people who go io bankruptcy protection cause they cannot manage 5 million a year...To bad for them also. You blasting the whole pilot profession is wrong and just because you do not posses the skill to fly, do not take it out on others.
It is a choice...If you cannot read well enough to check the pilot box on the application, no soup for you!
WesternA318 From United States, joined Oct 2004, 4349 posts, RR: 29 Reply 22, posted (5 years 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3386 times:
Reltney;
I will agree with you on most of those facts, although its just my personal opinion and not what journalists say. Yes, I do fly, although not commercially. I am not blasting the entire pilot profession (although I should have stated this in my earlier post), just the prima donnas who cant live within their means, not like yourself.
Get that worldly look, one country at a time. Work Hard, Fly Right.
Reltney From United States, joined Jun 2004, 162 posts, RR: 1 Reply 23, posted (5 years 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3370 times:
You are cool W318. I was harsh but you have a piont about people not in control of their money.....That is their problem . It is funny but you don't get the inflection of these comments like you do in person.
I work/worked for SW, AAL, DAL and see this between all employee groups at all airlines. The best is SW where my girlfriend is a pilot. She and I laugh at all the press stating how a non union airline like Southwest has an advantage in pricing. Truth you will never here on the airwaves/newspapers is SW is the most unionized airline and their pricing is at an advantage because singlefleet commonality and no pensions for employees. They just cut medical coverage for the retired employees and are in court about it. Good 401 but not great. Keep up the slams, maybe it will wake some people like me up!. Cheers
WesternA318 From United States, joined Oct 2004, 4349 posts, RR: 29 Reply 24, posted (5 years 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3319 times:
Thanks Reltney,
I have worked for several airlines myself (TWA, Winair, F9, Continental, America West, F9 again, in that order). I've seen a lot of what happens. I do agree with you about WN being the most unionized airline around. The only reason they are not harping about their unions is that Herb knew how to keep the peace between ALL of them. Get someone like Carl Icahn, Frank Lorenzo or Stephen Wolf in there and see how it goes down the crapper and how fast.
I was havin a REALLY EARLY MORNING chat with a DL pilot one day (6AM or so) and he was a 763 driver, and he was asking why should the pilots take the cut? Doesnt management see that we have mortages and cars to pay off? How can I send my son off to Harvard/Yale? Why shoulkd I take a cut when Grinstein and the others won't?
Let's just say I was a tad on diplomatic side with him, until he brought in the topic about the Delta Connection pilots. He was going off saying, Im better than those little RJ mosquitos. I fly the 767! I fly to places like Milan and Athens and they fly to little dung piles like Elko and Macon! I should NOT have to lower myself to THOSE subhuman standards!
He then stopped his ranting for a minute and asked "So, where ya flying on DL today?" I told him I'm not flying on DL and lifted my F9 ticket from SLC-LGA and he asked why I am not flying on DL. I told him 1) the price was too high. 2) I wont support the DL pilots. 3) I loathe flying DL, 4) F9 treats their pax better and 5) F9 isnt in trouble because of all of the former UA and DL pax that have switched carrier loyalties.
He then asked if Ive ever flown DL. I showed him my platinum elite card from last year and told him that EVERY SINGLE flight Ive ever taken on DL had somethig go wrong.
Other than that ass, I usually do support the pilots of other carriers and of smaller types of planes who fly to the *dung heap* cities I love travelling to.
Get that worldly look, one country at a time. Work Hard, Fly Right.
Yyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 15047 posts, RR: 65 Reply 25, posted (5 years 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3295 times:
Only the market place is ever honest, and correct. The market place is driving down pilot salaries on average since yields are lower.
So, yes -- pilots on average make too much. End of discussion.
26 Isitsafenow: Western318...not a bad comeback...not bad at all. I never could understand how a man who flys a computer with wings 3 to 5 round trips across the ocea
27 WesternA318: I remember reading about the fight AA and BN had in DFW. But I dont feel bad about AA holding back the cash when BN was desperate when BN was telling
28 Bobs89irocz: First of all, Mr. Crandell is a very smart man. Great leader and AA needs a man like him back in the big chain. Second, pilots in American arent neces
29 Planemaker: AW&ST recently listed the 2003 average pilot salaries, excluding benefits, for US carriers (considering that some carriers have only one or two fleet
30 WesternA318: Bobs89irocz, I will agree with you that its hard to leave your family for days on end, and Im not blasting DL's pilots for that. I'm blasting them bec
31 Jc2354: Pilots are not paid to simply fly a plane from, for example, Moline to Milan. Instead, they are paid for the experience, training and professionalism
32 Jet-lagged: Yes senior U.S. mainline pilots make too much. U.S. and European and Asian governments allow LCCs to fly, so they obviously are passing required safe
33 Planemaker: "Remember they have to leave there familys for days at a time. Thats hard. So do tons and tons of people... truck drivers, salesmen, etc. It is just p
34 WesternA318: You bring up three very good points, planemaker. Truck drivers and other leave their families for WEEKS on end as well, even months in a lot of cases.
35 Bobs89irocz: WesternA318- At least we can see eye to eye. I agree with you on the DL pilots. I know a lot of people where i live whos dads are 767 captains and up
36 Lufthansa: Hey it is really funny that you guys are having this debate, because us here in Australia are having a similar debate, with regard to QF FA's.
37 Ltbewr: This is not a simple issue. To me one of the problems is that the combination of the RJ/CRJ pilot/FO getting (depending on the carrier) something like
38 RogerThat: This really shouldn't be news to anyone. Bob Crandall was a ruthless cost cutter if the expense line item was labor or olives on salads. Just ask any
39 N771AN: I want pilots (and the other skilled professions) to be well paid. I don't want my safety in the hands of the low-cost bidder. We all do. But we all w
40 Planemaker: Bobs89irocz, I think that if you look at my post I was only addressing the away from home aspect that people bring up as a pilot "job hardship." And t
41 Jetdeltamsy: planemaker, i agree. what you said is what i was trying to say, only you said it better.
42 Swadispatcher: People also tend to forget that professional pilots also invest tens of thousands of dollars of their own money and many years of training to get wher
43 Ual777: Lets see Crandall land a 767 at MGTOW that just had an uncontained engine failure at take-off in a thunderstorm. Secondly, people who talk about pilot
44 WesternA318: You bring up a very good point, UAL777, if you havent actually done it, dont knock it. About four weeks ago, I flew from SLC to ISP in a Baron. Althou
45 THAIlover: I think the high is true for about 30% of ALL the pilots that are working. Well, although they might be underwork, but you have to consider that they
46 Pilotcoex: A lot of you guys seem to like Mr. Candrall.
47 Planemaker: There is something seriously wrong with pilot pay when the easiest schedules and routes get the highest pay!! Logically, the most experienced pilots s
48 Jacobin777: Yyz717...you made a great post up there (#25)....right now, the market is in a shakedown, and this is what the result is........eventually there will
49 Philsquares: Pilots make too much? Not at all. One of the biggest things Fang overlooked was the oversupply in the US commercial aviation industry. It's not oversu
50 Planemaker: it might take a few plane crashes for the general public to see where the balance is between fare prices and pilot quality.....the best pilots demand,
51 InnocuousFox: If the pax won't pay for the service, then the service is charging too much. If the service can't make money at what they are charging then their expe
52 Philsquares: Again, the problem is over capacity. The carriers are trying to compete with too much inventory in the market, thus the price reflects the oversupply.
53 EnviroTO: Up until 2001 the President of the United States was paid $200k. I don't know how the responsibilities of the President and airline pilots compare but
54 WesternA318: All of you bring up a valid point, and I love the comparisons and reasons EviroTO brings up in their latest post. CEO's making millions of dollars run
55 Moman: Gosh, this reminds me of the front page on USA Today earlier this year. Two married computer programmers in California were out of jobs and complainin
56 Supa7E7: Every year, there are fewer union jobs in the USA. That is fine. Unions destroy jobs and cause unemployment. That is an economic fact; ask any economi
57 Philsquares: Perhaps you could name a few economists who have deemed your statement as an "economic fact". Also, please include the statistical evidence that union
58 InnocuousFox: "In my opinion the minimum wage in the US is too low... any wage that does not pay for the basic requirements of life (food, clothing, shelter) at nor
59 BA97: For the pilots out there- help me with this one. A government sets a minimum standard to fly a type of plane. If you are less than the standard, you c
60 Supa7E7: Philsquares, anyone can see that today's job-shedding in the US airline industry could be entirely evoided by unshackling the workers from the union s
61 Ckfred: I heard Bob Crandall say on CNBC about 6 weeks ago that labor groups at the legacy carriers have to realize that they must accept lower pay scales and
62 WesternA318: Ckfred, This has to be the best post I have read on this topic! I agree wholeheartedly and 100% percent with you. Legacy carriers still have their hea
63 Travellin'man: That is fine. Unions destroy jobs and cause unemployment. Supa7e7- If it weren't for unions, there wouldn't be much of the regulation that protects wo
64 Philsquares: Supa7e7, I disagree. I was not able to open the link you provided, thank you. However, I still maintain your statement is inaccurate and not factual.
65 Ckfred: WesternA318: I appreciate your comments. I look at this way, GM prices a Buick more than a Chevy, because the Buick has more standard features, as wel
66 Philsquares: Supa7e7.....Finally opened the link you referenced. As I said before, please provide a few economists who support your position. Your synopsis of the
67 EnviroTO: And why do you think we are losing jobs to other countries? You can't have it both ways. Do you think most of the jobs being lost to foreign companies
68 Planemaker: The legacy carriers are still willing to match the LCCs on leisure fares, but then they still believe that a business person who must fly at the last
69 ChrisNH: It is not fair to single pilots out; indeed, there are WHOLE CATEGORIES of workers at major airlines that lived high-off-the-hog during the 1990s. No
70 Wing: Just strap him on the jumpseat during an approach in and around thunderstorms with heavy crosswinds and turbulance he will change his mind infact he
71 WesternA318: I am forced to agree with Planemaker yet again, The LCC's only control 25% of the domestic market, and about half of that 25% is Southwest's, who trie
72 N79969: Travellin' Man makes an interesting point which is applicable today. However when times were good in the late 1990s until early 2001, it was pilots wh
73 WesternA318: "These comparisons of various airline CEOs to Frank Lorenzo are absolutely ridiculous. Crandall may be a brusque individual but he did not gratuitious
74 Ckfred: I know several AA pilots who felt that Bob Crandall could be very brusque or utterly charming. But, he knew the airline industry and his operation ins
75 WesternA318: Without Crandall, AA didn't have too much of a good chance after a scandal with their past chairman before Crandall and the Nixon re-election campaign
76 RogerThat: WesternA318, A correction if I may. Albert V. Casey was chairman of AMR prior to Robert Crandall. Before Mr. Casey, C.R. Smith came in for a brief sti
77 WesternA318: Rogerthat, Thanks for the correction, and I'm sorry to hear he passed away...Another "REAL" airline cheiftan leaves us for the big fortress hub in the
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