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Electric Airplanes  
User currently offlineDeltamd-88 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 123 posts, RR: 2
Posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1962 times:

I have an Idea as most of you know Toyota, Honda, and many other Automobile makers are producing Hybrid Gas/Electric cars that get 40 to 60 miles per gallon what it uses is two engines a Electric engine and a Gas powered engine. The gas powered engine recharges the electric motor when it runs out of charge and also the brakes do the same thing. Now what if Cessna, Beechcraft, or piper build Hybrid Airplanes. I think that would save alot in gas seeing that in some places 100LL is over $3.00 a gallon.
everyones thoughts on that please.

Cheers,
DeltaMD-88


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16 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineSkysurfer From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2004, 1136 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1943 times:

Hi there,
Now, i'm no expert on engines or anything else for that matter but don't those hybrid cars have big sets of (heavy) batteries in them to hold the charge? Using the heat from the brakes to recharge them works well on cars because around town people use the brakes quite alot, but if they were fitted to a light aircraft then the brakes would only charge the battery during taxi and landing. Assuming the manufacturers used cables to run from the brakes to the battery, that could cause a few maintenance problems in terms of worn wires from flexing when the gear's retracted (unless it's fixed gear), plus i'm sure it would add a bit of extra weight but not much. So with a gas engine either up front or on each wing, plus an electric motor supplying supplemental power, PLUS a battery/battries somewhere else i'm guessing you'd need a powerful engine/s to get the thing in the air. So, increase in weight = bigger engines = more fuel burn!!!
I'm curious as to how the electric motor would help out. Would it be used just for taxying, or would it supply some power in flight so that the gas engine could be throttled back a little to let the electric motor take some of the work? It's a nice concept, i'm just not sure if it'd work, but like i said i'm no expert.
Btw, i've been reading over the past year about diesel engines being considered for light aircraft....i think that would be interesting to see/hear.

Cheers



In the dark you can't see ugly, but you can feel fat
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9490 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1932 times:

I actually work on a hybrid project and am part of a team that is developing a hybrid Chevrolet Equinox SUV so I am pretty knowledgeable about them. First of all a hybrid would not work in an airplane because their engines usually work at a constant speed. The stop and go driving, is what makes the electric motor in a car useful. Regenerative braking is used to charge the battery while slowing. The electric motor provides extra acceleration power and the car then uses a gasoline engine to power it when at constant velocity. If this were on an airplane the gasoline engine would power the plane in flight and an electric motor would only be used on takeoff. This would not be efficient because you would need a massively large battery. I know a hybrid car requires roughly a 300V battery supply. Overall the setup would not work out at all. Redefining engine technology would be the best solution.

One thing that does work is using alternative fuels. Embraer just recently produced a small plane that would run on Ethanol. These fuels are extracted from corn stalks to produce ethanol which would be used to power a plane or car. Alternative fuels could be very helpful on the small scale, but they wouldn't be very good on the large scale jets. Alternative fuels could become very useful in general aviation.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineSkysurfer From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2004, 1136 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1924 times:

Would you believe, i just asked a question in another thread about using ethanol in aircraft engines!!!

Cheers



In the dark you can't see ugly, but you can feel fat
User currently offlineDeltamd-88 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 123 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1921 times:

well about the Diesel Engine there is one in production now I forgot the name of the maker but I know that it is in production atleast thats what my old flight instructor told me... now about the battery I am not sure about that but a guy I use to work with bought the new Toyota Pruis or how ever you spell it and I don't recall seeing alot of battery. The electric motor that was there was like the eletric motor from a ceiling fan or something and for the Power it used maybe a cell of some sort that recharged with the running of the Gas motor.. but it is an interesting concept and I would like to see it someday.. I will try to find info on the Diesel Airplane for ya


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User currently offlineSkysurfer From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2004, 1136 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1911 times:

Thanx Deltamd....quite an interesting question you asked and it certainly got my mind in gear at this 'latish' hour.

Cheers

ps...i believe it's called the Toyota Prius



In the dark you can't see ugly, but you can feel fat
User currently offlineDeltamd-88 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 123 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1909 times:

http://www.jsonline.com/bym/news/oct03/175060.asp

there is an article about Diesel aircraft taking to the air



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User currently offlineDeltamd-88 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 123 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1891 times:

I am a big fan of Diesel trucks and Airplanes and I think it is so cool that they are able to do that


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User currently offlineSkysurfer From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2004, 1136 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1884 times:

Wow, that was a good article....it's nice to see there's some (or alot) of progress with the diesels. Being from Europe i love them because they're so efficient, well that and the fact that any kind of gas in the UK is expensive! lol
Thanx for finding the article for me, i appreciate it.

Cheers



In the dark you can't see ugly, but you can feel fat
User currently offlineJetjeanes From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1430 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1885 times:

I might could see it in the future on larger planes rather than a cessna, when the a/c reaches cruiseing altitude it could go electric for a while, but then you would have to restart the engines back to jet a .or if you had say for example something the size of a 767 ,have the two regular engines and two more outboard engines on electricity. Throttle the jet a engines to idle and run the outboards on electricity,but your back to four engine a/c,,, But this would require years of testing. I wish we could seek alternative fuels... I saw a guy that owned a string of mcdonalds, he travels in his mercedes on used french fry cooking oil..


i can see for 80 miles
User currently offlineDeltamd-88 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 123 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1873 times:

the thing with the 767 with two gas engines and two electric engines is the drag it would create now what you could do is use two engines and have the electricity be used for take-off and landing while the gas is used for cruise and that would use less fuel b/c they trottle back at cruising so less fuel and we all know engines are more efficent at 30,000 ft verse's at 3,000 or 300
but that maybe a better Idea than Small cessnas having hybrid.



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User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9490 posts, RR: 52
Reply 11, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1865 times:

Put < > around a link to activate it
http://www.jsonline.com/bym/news/oct03/175060.asp

Hybrid vehicles need a motor that is roughly 40-80kW (50-100hps depending on size) and an engine of about the same size. A Prius definitely has an engine more powerful then a ceiling fan, but size is relative. Also batteries may not fill up the entire vehicle because they aren't necessarily that big, but they are extremely heavy. The only reliable batteries are nickel cadmium ion batteries. Lithium Ion (the ones found in cameras, watches etc) are better but not safe enough for an airplane nor are they powerful enough to store the necessary charge and to produce an adequate voltage. A hybrid design still wouldn't work though. Using a combustion engine to charge a battery just siphons off its own power and does not help with gas mileage. It would hurt it unless you had a series setup where the engine produced electricity that was used to run a motor. This might be feasible, however airplane engines are already optimized to run at certain cruise speeds, so this might not be as beneficial as to a car in stop and go traffic. A parallel or split train design would not work because 99% of the time you would be running off the engine only and the motor would be sitting doing nothing because you would have exhausted your battery supply and if you tried to recharge it you would end up losing power from the engine.

As for diesel, it is possible to find a diesel engine that could run an airplane. Currently there are mini turbine engines (in the 100-200hps range) that can run off of diesel. Some are experimental and many are found in the refining industry, but applications relating to aviation could be found and are possible in the future. Engines of all types can run airplanes if they are modified to. I have only heard of ethanol being used in aviation, but there could be diesel planes out there and it is definitely feasible.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineDeltamd-88 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 123 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1857 times:

I think with time and technology that the hybrid airplane could work and I think it would be interesting to see it be that way,

As for the Diesel airplane that link proves that there is one flying..


Cheers



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User currently offlineLeanOfPeak From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 509 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1834 times:

The only way there could be any benefit from it at all would be if you could use a capacitor that would be charged during taxi-out and flush the charge into electric motors in the main gear for takeoff. That would slightly reduce the demands on the engines during takeoff and allow them to be a bit more optimized for cruise.

But I doubt even such a light, simple system (And a heavier, more complex system wouldn't give you anything more) would give enough benefit to justify its own weight and complexity.

The nature of aircraft flight is such that the benefits of hybrid propulsion in this sense are almost nil and the reasons for not doing it are many.

It does occur to me, however, that you could, with such a system:

1) Use electric brakes (Which would scare a lot of people, but be necessary because the motor would take up the space where the conventional brakes would go). This would also reclaim some of the weight penalty.

2) Plug into ground power shortly before departure and eliminate the need for pushback trucks. A little less capital expenditure, a little less labor, a little less cost for that.

[Edited 2004-11-01 04:45:27]

User currently offline727200er From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 318 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1828 times:

Biodiesel

This wonderful renewable fuel could be used very soon to power a 747 near you. Seriously it would take very little work to adapt current gas turbines to use Biodiesel. Biodiesel would also be an option for the new generation of diesel GA engines as well.
A few links to diesel aircraft engines for perusal
http://www.smaengines.com.
http://www.deltahawkengines.com/
http://www.wilksch.com/
http://www.zoche.de/



"they who dream by day are cognizant of many things which escape those who dream only at night" - Edgar Allen Poe
User currently offlineTW741 From Liechtenstein, joined Sep 2004, 478 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 1749 times:

dont forget the Diamond DA42 Twin Star which made an Atlantic crossing in August 2004
This flight represents the first non-stop transatlantic crossing by a diesel engine powered aircraft in general aviation
http://www.diamond-air.at/en/index.htm

=TW741=



TWA - we showed you how good we have been!
User currently offlineWhitehatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1667 times:

Diesel in the sky is nothing new. The Nazis had diesel powered bombers before and early in WW2, but eventually moved to gasoline engines due to the problems that these early high-speed engines experienced. Fuel waxing was one major issue at the low temperatures in flight. The Junkers JU-86D was an example which first saw action in the Spanish civil war.

The German high-speed diesel designs later found their niche in engines for fast trains and boats. Railway enthusiasts will know about the famous Deltic engines we had in the UK, which came from using German wartime research.


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