Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
YUL (Montreal-Trudeau) Now Montreal's Only Airport  
User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4994 posts, RR: 51
Posted (9 years 11 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3958 times:

Last night,

TS had its last departure to CDG out of Montreal-Mirabel.

Last night Transat 761 arrived from Puerto Plata at 12:15a, and effective that flight, Montreal-Trudeau (a.k.a Dorval) is Montreal's only commercial airport.

R.I.P Mirabel 1976-Oct31 2004!

50 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLnglive1011yyz From Canada, joined Oct 2003, 1608 posts, RR: 15
Reply 1, posted (9 years 11 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3861 times:

*warning, I don't want to offend anyone, so please don't take my comments to heart*.

This past Saturday was my first time ever travelling to Montreal. (For the last AC 74E flight).

I have to say - if we had not left the air-side section of the airport to roam around the ground-side area, we would have been totally appalled at Trudeau International.

Where we landed (we all (A.netters) called it the 'hole') was absolutely disgusting and old and decrepit.

Now, taking into account that they are working on improving the airport, and the groundside (where the restaurants and lounges are) is spectacular, if I was a connecting passenger and not going groundside, I would have been disgusted by the airport.

Again, it kind of highlites the improvements at T1 Toronto. yes, it's bland, it's sterile, but it's grandeur and cleanliness is quite welcoming under the circumstances.

Any opinions? (Any other a.netters that were there at YUL On Saturday care to comment?)

1011yyz.



Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
User currently offlineCaribb From Canada, joined Nov 1999, 1639 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (9 years 11 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3835 times:

I'm happy to see all the flights back at YUL. Once the new Customs Hall is open by mid-November it should run smoother, until then it will be difficult and Im sure there will be complaints. Nevertheless it's been 30 years since all commercial traffic has been at one airport so a time to celebrate! Next thing.. cargo.. bring it over!

User currently offlineFormerhongky From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 30 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (9 years 11 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3803 times:

This past Saturday was my first time ever travelling to Montreal. (For the last AC 74E flight).

I have to say - if we had not left the air-side section of the airport to roam around the ground-side area, we would have been totally appalled at Trudeau International.

Where we landed (we all (A.netters) called it the 'hole') was absolutely disgusting and old and decrepit.


Which part of the airport were you in? Domestic? I travel frequently to YUL from the US, and I think the transborder finger is pretty nice (granted, a VERY long walk to immigration). And I had an incredible meal in the (ground-side) restaurant close to the check-in counters.


User currently offlineThenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2584 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (9 years 11 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3784 times:

Mirabel will be back in 30-35 years...Just wait and see!

There is no way that YUL can handle Montreal's traffic for the next 30-35 years. ADM's projections are inaccurate. In order for their numbers to be accurate, they would have to build a whole new terminal in between rwy's 24R and 24L, which is already all used up by Air Canada's, Bombardier's and now Air Transat's hangars and facilities. Once their 3rd phase of expansion finishes, they will soon realize that they have once again ran out of terminal space.

Dont get me wrong, the 3 runway system they have is enough for the next 35 years, no question about that! Just have a look at LHR or even LGW, respectively the busiest international airport in the world (2 runways, the 3rd one used as a taxiway) and the busiest single runway airport in the world (the 2nd one used as a taxiway), both of which utilize fewer runways than YUL, but have passenger figures 7-8 times that of YUL.

Why? Because LHR has 4 terminals, soon to be 5, and as for LGW, they have 3 to 4 times more parking space than YUL, even with the new expansions. YUL lacks terminal space, and if ADM thinks the current expansion will be sufficient for the next 30 years, boy do they have a surprise coming their way!

Now some of you will say that I cannot compare YUL to LHR or LGW, and you are right, but I just wanted to prove a point. I know that YUL will never reach 60-70 million passengers a year in the next 30 years, and it doesnt need to. But the problem is it wont even be able to reach half that.

You'd be surprized by the number of JAZZ pilots who have contacted me inbound to YUL and told me that they would like to reduce their speed because their gate is just not ready at YUL! If wer were at YYZ, then fine, I would understand. But with the passenger figures at YUL, that's just absurd. That situation will become more and more of a reality, if ADM doens't take action.


Anyways, fell free to blast me for all these coments, but this is just my point of view. I hope for Montreal's aviation's sake that I am wrong, but I highly doubt it!

TheNoFlyZone



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4994 posts, RR: 51
Reply 5, posted (9 years 11 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3778 times:

1011yyz.

visit www.admtl.com and go to trudeau expansion to see the chnges that are in store.

The domestic side of YUL is pretty awful, but the transborder/international are beautiful, and the new amazing customs hall opens nov.18th.

Gates 1-10 (where you landed) is not that bad. Its pretty simple and very user-friendly and efficient.

It looks exactly like the old T2 in YYZ.. and expansion announcement is set for some time in the near future to fix this part up.


User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4994 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (9 years 11 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3774 times:

Noflyzone,

I understand your concerns, Ive had the same. But we need to recognize the further elements of expansion for YUL. If your familiar with YUL, currently where the US customs pre-clearance is, that will soon be vacated, where new checkin counters can be placed.

Also, pre-clearance and the US terminal will fill the hole between TB new and the road ramp.

In terms of gates, ADM can go up to 70 bridges + 25 commuter spots.

We will be fine.. remember that YMX is not even 30 years old, so how can we project another 30-35 years down the road, aviation wont be the same.


User currently offlineThenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2584 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (9 years 11 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3751 times:

FLYYUL,

I hope you're right buddy! I just dont want this city's air traffic to move from one airport to the other for the next 30 years, just like it has since the 90's. Like Caribb was saying, it's time to settle down at one airport and make it all happen. I just hope they chose the right one!

TheNoFlyZone

[Edited 2004-11-01 19:30:33]


us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlineLnglive1011yyz From Canada, joined Oct 2003, 1608 posts, RR: 15
Reply 8, posted (9 years 11 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3748 times:

FLYYUL,

I agree. The new entrance area is quite stunning and beautiful. The domestic wing was quite a dump, quite dirty and old.

I have not seen the US/Int'l side, and I'm sure it's quite nice.

I will take the opportunity some time to try to fly out of YUL to the US so I can see for myself the changes, etc.

Thanks!
1011yyz



Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
User currently offlineUA744KSFO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 11 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3729 times:

When I was in Montreal back in May, I noticed the difference between the improved and yet to be improved sections of the airport.

The entrance area and check in areas are great, as is the transborder jetty. The aeroquay, however, is a dump, and I can't wait until ADM finishes replacing it!

When the project is completed, however, I think YUL will be a great airport.


User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4994 posts, RR: 51
Reply 10, posted (9 years 11 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3730 times:

Noflyzone,

I agree... I got a glimpse of the new customs hall, it really is a stunning piece of architecture.. it really will help the change the perception that is Dorval.

What worries me is the lack of gate space on the international side. Only 10 gates, a simple gate chart on a peak day will show 100% utilization.. i hope they can do better.


User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4994 posts, RR: 51
Reply 11, posted (9 years 11 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3719 times:

"http://www.admtl.com/admmaintext.jsp?idbin=21G000"

This is the adress to expansion videos..

Please take a look and let us know what you think.


User currently offlineBFS From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2001, 743 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (9 years 11 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3532 times:

I just flew back to Quebec via YUL and it is a total dump. The arrivals area is a disgrace, and although the new terminal and gates are nice, very nice perhaps, I was devastared to be sent down to Gates 46 for Air Canada Jazz. There was just concrete floors and no ceiling to speak of - granted it was under renovation, but it just was not good enough.

User currently offlineBOEING747-700 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (9 years 11 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3529 times:

The New YUL looks to be quite nice from that video Mark, I must say it going to look like crap before it starts looks great. Remember how bad YYZ looked, YIKES.

User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4994 posts, RR: 51
Reply 14, posted (9 years 11 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3517 times:

One of the main reasons YMX failed was also due to distance.

Montreal's core markets are Toronto, Boston, New York, Washington, Paris, London.... most of these markets are less than a 1 hour plane ride away.

So lets do the math.. 45 minute ride to YMX, 1.5 hour checkin process, 1 hour flight+ subsequent delays, 1 hour exiting process, 1 hour to more to get to where you need to go.

When this happens, the bus and train become more competitive.

Most people can drive Montreal-Toronto door to door in 5 hours flat.



User currently offlineQuebecair727 From Canada, joined Apr 2001, 328 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3440 times:

One of the main reasons YMX failed was also due to distance.

Montreal's core markets are Toronto, Boston, New York, Washington, Paris, London.... most of these markets are less than a 1 hour plane ride away.

So lets do the math.. 45 minute ride to YMX, 1.5 hour checkin process, 1 hour flight+ subsequent delays, 1 hour exiting process, 1 hour to more to get to where you need to go.

When this happens, the bus and train become more competitive.

Most people can drive Montreal-Toronto door to door in 5 hours flat.


The main reason why YMX failed is because they did not close YUL like they were supposed to do it down the road and transfer EVERY flights to YMX. The distance is one small element that played a part in the failure of YMX. I agree there was a lack on interest by all the provincial governments over the years.

As for your math, I totally agree with you with a small difference though.

So lets do the math.. 45 minute ride to YUL, 1.5 hour checkin process, 1 hour flight+ subsequent delays, 1 hour exiting process, 1 hour to more to get to where you need to go.

In the rush hour, I challenge you to make it to YUL from downtown in less than 45 minutes.


User currently offlineJgardiner From Canada, joined Mar 2001, 114 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3360 times:

The main reason that YMX died is that the provincial infrastructure was not improved as was originally planned. When it was built there was to have been a major highway improvement as well as train service. This did not happen, so you had a brand new airport in the middle of nowhere and no way to get to it. It's no wonder that the airlines refused to use it.



User currently offlineQb001 From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2053 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3341 times:

The main reason that YMX died is that the provincial infrastructure was not improved as was originally planned.

The reason the provincial infrastructure was not improved as was originally planned is simply because YUL was not closed as originally planned.

YUL was not closed as originally planned because AC didn't want to. In AC's views, Montreal was simply an O/D market and for such, YUL is fine.

Of course, ADM didn't have to buy this AC crap, but they did nonetheless because they have no vision about what an airport should be.

Had ADM invested at YMX what it invested at YUL, we'd have a world-class airport with an almost infinite potential to grow. Which is clearly not the case at YUL. And the argument "Heathrow with 2 runways gets 100 million pax a year, therefore YUL's runways are not a problem" is fallacious.

Granted, YMX was a mistake at the offset; this airport should have been built where the Quebec government wanted to back in the 60s, that is near Drummondville. But you don't fix a mistake by committing another.

ADM had a choice between a brand new Mercedes and an old Chevy. It chose to invest in maintaining the old Chevy, which days are counted anyway.

Go figure...



Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4994 posts, RR: 51
Reply 18, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3286 times:

"but they did nonetheless because they have no vision about what an airport should be."

-Dear Sir.

Firstly go visit the new installations at YUL once they are complete in its entirety.. then we'll talk. Have you seen the new TB concourse, the new customs hall, the international customs hall, the new arrivals area, the new checkin section?

Secondly, AC saw Montreal as an OD market because Montrealers and Quebeckers decided for it to be this way. In the last three decades, we have elected politicians that have hurt us more than words can describe. You dont think the sovreignty crap hurt us?

What did you expect? For some magical airline to pop-up from Quebec and make Montreal a international hub? Are you kidding me, because of stupid politics and insecurity and polarization of the Quebec society, today we are stuck with a secondary market. And precisely because of this, Toronto is NOW what Montreal SHOULD have been..

So dont go blaming the ADM.. it makes no economical sense to invest in YMX and this is why

1.) poor to medium development potential for Montreal. Face it, Toronto is goign to blow us out of the water with the way things have been, the way thigns are, the way things are going to be.

2.) no airline is willing to invest in Montreal. Air Canada's hub is in Toronto, Montreal is secondary yet vibrant. AIr Transat's main ops are in Toronto, All of SG's flights are in Toronto, Canjet has dropped all non-YHZ markets out of YUL, WestJet has dropped all non-transcon flying out of YUL except for YULYYZ................ so how are things going to change from YUL to YMX?

3.) It would cost in excess of 3 billion dollars provincially, federally, municipally to make Mirabel an airport that can handle YUL's particularities

a.) face it in YMX right now, the terminal is nice, but terribly inefficient.. it can only handle international flights and has 4 gates

b.) Mirabel has no direct highway

c.) Mirabel has 2 runways, it would required a 3rd

d.) Mirabel would require a new terminal

e.) Mirabel would require hotels and other ground support infrastructure...

f.) Mirabel would require new hotels and other visitor support infrastructue as well.

4.) Political instability in Quebec. Look im not a federalist nor am I a separatist. But if you ran the risk of having your investment devalued (weve experienced this before) because of the potential of sovreignty, maybe you would reconsider a simple RISK. Like I say, why buy a house for 300,000 when it runs the immediate risk of being devalued to 125,000 in a sovreign Quebec.?... same goes for the airport situation.

This would cost initially billions. Tell me QB001, are you sick and tired of paying taxes?

Montrealers have forgotten what it is to dream and think big. Montrealers today are so complacent, so scared of anything that is not Quebec and not-francophone, its almost disgusting. We are more than happy to be a secondary feeder to Toronto, a regional centre, because this way we can achieve being a "distinct society"..

So this is your oppurtunity cost QB001. Look at Toronto, look at us..... I love Montreal to bits, but sometimes it makes me sick. But I will always stand up for it, and what is BEST for it as well.

*end of rant*



User currently onlineNoise From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 1802 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3233 times:

Thank you Mark!!! Great post!

User currently offlineQb001 From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2053 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3190 times:

FLYYUL,

I appreciate your passion for YUL, but you're wrong, terribly wrong. And the way you blend political judgement, some facts and some opinions in your rant doesn't make a very good post.

I'd rather no respond because, frankly, it is so weak.

You can certainly do better than that - that being said with no sarcasm.



Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4994 posts, RR: 51
Reply 21, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3163 times:

QB001,

Im sure its quite weak, you cant even respond.

Your one of those pro-Mirabel people so out of touch with market fundamentals.

So where am I wrong QB001?





User currently offlineQb001 From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2053 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3136 times:

FLYYUL,

For g-d sake, read your reply #18. Do you not see that you mixed-up everything, from the beauty of the new installations to the separatists, the 2 runways of YMX and the Montreal area real-estate market ? I'm surprise that you forgot to chip the "tongue-troopers" in... And you call that a rational argument ? Peu-leeze.

Make a good case for YUL, with facts and arguments, and I'll debate.



Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4994 posts, RR: 51
Reply 23, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3096 times:

It is a rational argument.,

Why has traffic stayed flat for the last 30 years? Why have so many airlines left montreal? Why have many head-offices moved away from Montreal?

Why is Montreal the 26th poorest city in terms of GDP in North America.

QB001 friggin wake up and smell the coffee, and dont gimme lame excuses.



User currently offlineC-GRYK From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 751 posts, RR: 36
Reply 24, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3081 times:

Whoa Mark I'm starting to get frightened!!! You almost sound like Neil there!  Laugh out loud

Jer



Think before you type!
25 Lymanm : QB001, I'm sorry, but FLYYUL has put forth an argument, you have not. Perhaps I can clarify what he says. YMX was unable to obtain new investment to m
26 Qb001 : Lymanm, You start your reply (#25) with interesting arguments, but then, similarly to FLYYUL, you start mixing airport considerations with politics, a
27 YVRtoYYZ : Although I don't really want to wade into this arguement too much, and after reading the debate into location, investment, etc., I want to draw your a
28 FLYYUL : YES qb001. Im talking about market fundamentals, which dictate the airport of choice. If the demand was so great, Mirabel would be necessary What make
29 Qb001 : FLYYUL, I think you're so infuriated that I criticize YUL that you don't see very clearly anymore. I asked you what is a good airport, and you answer
30 FLYYUL : My arguments favor the majority and the conscensus, that Montreal Dorval is the future for Montreal, and that Montreal does not have the capabilities
31 UA744KSFO : OK, I want to step in for a second and address this whole idea of "what is a good airport?" A good airport is one that can adequately serve the city t
32 Qb001 : A good airport is one that can adequately serve the city that it is designed to serve and the surrounding communities. Fair enough. But that is the de
33 FLYYUL : QB001, YUL new installations at phase II mark capacity at 15 million. Now let me ask you, have you seen phase III or phase IV of the project? Phase II
34 AC7E7 : Even ADM admits it will go back to YMX then." Source please.
35 FLYYUL : its an interpretation. James Cherry once said that Dorval will be good for the next 30 years, and somebody asked him if it was possible that a YMX ret
36 Post contains images AC7E7 : Great, thanks FLYYUL. Its crazy, YMX will never be used again. It's time people get over it and accept the fact that YUL is now the only international
37 Noise : I do not comprehend how QB001 cannot understand the great points Mark continues to bring up. Enough is enough...if you too dense to understand how Mir
38 Jamtide : Good post.... I learnt alot from FLYYUL. Thanks.
39 Qb001 : the trans-atlantic age is coming to a closure. Are you serious ? It's not because there is more growth in Asia that the North-Atlantic market ceases t
40 Post contains images FLYYUL : The trans-atlantic age is coming to an end. If you pay close attention, network carriers are trying to spread their assets as much as possible over As
41 Post contains images CanadaEH : Montreal WILL NOT be a hub. Who in gods name is going to start some magical trans-atlantic hub in Montreal? I wasn't going to get involved in this unt
42 Lymanm : "You start your reply (#25) with interesting arguments, but then, similarly to FLYYUL, you start mixing airport considerations with politics, aircraft
43 Post contains images FLYYUL : CanadaEh, you are aware that Dorval is going through a 1.3 billion dollar re-transformation
44 UA744KSFO : I don't understand the whole runway limitation argument. YMX only has two runways, so what advantage does it have over YUL in this respect?
45 FLYYUL : You can conceivably build 8 runways at YMX if you wanted to....
46 Qb001 : The trans-atlantic age is coming to an end. I'm sorry, but I will not debate such a ridiculous statement. Montreal WILL NOT be a hub. Of course it won
47 FLYYUL : Qb001 I will respond to your statements. "I'm sorry, but I will not debate such a ridiculous statement." -Network growth thrust with current airlines
48 Qb001 : What a joke. Anyway, I'll give it one last chance, hoping (but I'm not holding my breath) that you'll be able to go above and beyond your opinion to t
49 Post contains images FLYYUL : "Have I disputed that ? The fact is that North-Atlantic traffic will keep growing, but at a lower pace. I just don't understand why you deny that." -Y
50 AC7E7 : FLYYUL, I will have to say that you are the clear winner in this debate. The slow growth in trans-atlantic travel does not warrant expansion at YMX. A
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Montreal-Dorval Gets Airport Radio Station posted Tue Dec 11 2001 23:53:56 by Polaris
MCO Now Florida's Busiest Airport-SEntinel posted Wed Feb 2 2005 03:24:30 by Kkfla737
Largest Commuter Only Airport In US posted Tue Dec 14 2004 02:15:52 by Kcrwflyer
Expect Even Longer Waits Now At The Airport posted Sat Feb 22 2003 02:04:37 by B757300
First And Only Airport Closed By 911? posted Tue Apr 30 2002 20:40:35 by Dstc47
MDW Is Now An International Airport posted Fri Mar 1 2002 22:30:13 by CcrlR
EMA Now Number 2 Cargo Airport In UK In....... posted Sun Feb 17 2002 20:54:11 by BDRules
CNN: From Now On Only Ticketed Passengers To Gates posted Wed Sep 12 2001 20:32:11 by Nwa747-400
Is SFO The Only Airport That Has A Spotters Club? posted Tue Jun 26 2001 01:29:17 by 777-500ER
Montreal Dorval (YUL) Airport Expansion Clips posted Wed May 28 2003 04:43:36 by FLYYUL