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Indian Pvt Airlines Might Go Fully International  
User currently offlineAirish From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 259 posts, RR: 1
Posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2468 times:

Indian private airlines might be allowed to fly to all international destinations except for the gulf according to this article

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/916749.cms

Does anyone think that in the light of what is in this article it might happen to the dates mentioned and if it will happen at all given the current government.




Worlds Only Reputable Airline Air India! Some Of The Least: BA, Jet (9w), Kingfisher!
39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2419 times:

By tomorrow, Air India and its band of screechy GOI supporters will have turned this policy around on some nonsensical public policy initiative.

Don't hold your breath.


User currently offlineRupesNZ From New Zealand, joined May 2004, 105 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2333 times:

That's probably right - I can't see the Indian government forgoing their monopolistic revenue stream from the state owned airlines in a hurry. If Jet gets the rights to fly international then people will abandon AI and IA more quickly than you can say AI 777


User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2290 times:

I am not going to comment, except to say that if the MoCA can really pass this in 15 days while most routine matters to do with AI/IC are left pending for a year or longer - one truly has to wonder whether all dealings by the airlines in question have been conducted above board.

User currently offlineIndianguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2268 times:


one truly has to wonder whether all dealings by the airlines in question have been conducted above board.

Well who cares. As long as this leads somewhere!! For too long the Indian civil aviation market has been constrained. Bilaterals are signed not according to traffic growtrh but according to Air India's ability (or lack of) to compete. There have been cases where an Airline hasnt been allowed in until AI was given a cut of the deal! In a sense, AI is Indias Aeroflot.

If Indian aviation has to grow, the Air India fixation must be dealth with first. Mr Patel is NOT, repeat NOT the minister for Air India, he is the minister for Civil Aviation.

Domestic aviation was also a monopoly till a decade back until pvt carriers were allowed in. Have we fared well since then? Certainly! The Indian passenger today has a lot more options and increased competition has certainly made domestic air travel more efficent, reliable and accessible.

There is no reason to follow a separate set of rules for international traffic.

-Roy


User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2259 times:

Mr Patel is NOT, repeat NOT the minister for Air India, he is the minister for Civil Aviation.

However, the Minister of Civil Aviation has an explicit mandate to promote the interests of Indian Airlines and Air India.

Domestic deregulation was a mess to begin with but settled down once IC was given sufficient autonomy to compete. A similar situation will unfold with international deregulation. However, lets skip the initial mess and give AI the autonomy to begin with - then release everybody into a free market.

The MoCA cannot have it both ways. For all the Naresh Chandra Report's faults, it specifically advocates a level playing field before international deregulation. Praful Patel is trying to selectively choose those aspects of the reccomendations that suit the agenda of his private sector patrons at the expense of a taxpayer owned asset. That is not conduct that one should expect from a Cabinet minister.


User currently offlineJasepl From India, joined Jul 2004, 3582 posts, RR: 39
Reply 6, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 2236 times:

I am not going to comment, except to say that if the MoCA can really pass this in 15 days while most routine matters to do with AI/IC are left pending for a year or longer - one truly has to wonder whether all dealings by the airlines in question have been conducted above board.

Boo effing hoo. As much as I like and swear by Air India, I won't shed a tear if Jet do get to fly wherever they want and do damage to AI. So Goyal brought something to the table that AI management could not. So what? Nothing happens "above the board" in India. That's a reality we're all too aware of and a reality we're all going to have to accept. Whether we like it or loathe it.

We have long ago reached and passed the point where the government cannot continue to prevent other carriers from flying to places AI can't. Nor has any government been willing to enable AI from doing so. About bloody time the wonderful minister stops playing bitch in the manger.

Whatever happens (so long as it happens), one thing's for sure: the flying public benefits. As wonderful as AI's inflight service is, they can't come remotely close to Jet. And as wonderful as AI's inflight service is, they are probably one of the worst in the world in all other areas.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 7, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 2228 times:

It seems too good to be true.I'll wait for 15 days.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineKaran69 From India, joined Oct 2004, 2889 posts, RR: 17
Reply 8, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 2205 times:

15 DAYS-guys this is our GREAT BHARAT MATA with her world famous corrupt power drunk politicians.
Lets all just take a nice break and enjoy the Diwali and Eid holidays and let the Communist bug the govt. with this proposal and object to it


User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 2203 times:

"However, the Minister of Civil Aviation has an explicit mandate to promote the interests of Indian Airlines and Air India."

Not at the expense of the interests of the beleagured and over-taxed Indian citizen - that hapless soul who's been bankrolling these tawdry enterprises now for over 50 years.

AI and IC have to serve the interests of the Indian national, not vice versa.

And if public policy is better served by allowing the private sector serve the Indian public, then the GOI will hopefully find a way around the Air India as sacred "Go-maata" syndrome.

The Indian expatriate community of millions around the world couldn't be happier if this were to happen. We'd rather our travel expenditures be directed to an Indian company (instead of those de facto Indian carriers, courtesy of the GOI - Emirates, Gulf Air, SQ, Lufthansa, etc) - especially one that provides us with a world class product. Which Jet has shown over and over again that it can. The reputation that Jet enjoys among both Indian-Americans as well as other Americans who visit India for business and pleasure is second to none. Sadly, even though AI isn't anywhere as bad as most people think it is, its got its work cut out.

So as far as Air India goes, I am sure it will find a way to compete effectively much in the same way that BA did when Virgin began to bite into its monopoly. We may even see AI return to its early 70s JRD "Tata Palace in the Sky" pishposh status of premier carriers in the world. It aint going to be happen with a bunch of IAS officers basking in their protectionist cocoon and taking 1000 days to effectively change to a less abrasive TP.


User currently offlineJasepl From India, joined Jul 2004, 3582 posts, RR: 39
Reply 10, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 2197 times:

15 DAYS-guys this is our GREAT BHARAT MATA with her world famous corrupt power drunk politicians.
Lets all just take a nice break and enjoy the Diwali and Eid holidays and let the Communist bug the govt. with this proposal and object to it


Don't worry Karan.... no one's holding their breath. That's the twisted beauty of it!


User currently offlineIndianguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2166 times:


Domestic deregulation was a mess to begin with but settled down once IC was given sufficient autonomy to compete.

IC still doesnt have much autonomy. And i am not sure they need it even!! Why should state-owned carriers be treated specially? What for?

I think that IC is seriously disadvantaged in the current situation vv the pvt carriers. IC is vulnerable to all kinds of pulls and pressures (even more than AI would potentially be) to operate to every little town and village and send A320's at that, 'cos the 737's are too downmarket!

Ultimately the passengers interests are paramount. IC and AI have a role to play as a stabilizing factor. But that does not warrant any special treatment. What they need is a level-playing field. What they need is freedom to resist the kinds of pulls and pressures they are otherwise subjected to.

-Roy


User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2171 times:

IC and AI have a role to play as a stabilizing factor. But that does not warrant any special treatment. What they need is a level-playing field. What they need is freedom to resist the kinds of pulls and pressures they are otherwise subjected to.


For once, Roy and I are in 100% complete agreement.


User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2157 times:

"What they need is a level-playing field."

Which for some reason in your mind entails the absence of any home grown Indian competition, yet EK will probably launch multiple A380s to India in a few years. So much for the creation of additional high paying Indian jobs contributing to the Indian economy.

Lets face it. IC and AI have had 5 decades of a "level-playing field" and after all this uber protection have produced a shoddy product that have sucked up tax payer funds. If by level playing field you mean the absence of GOI interference in AI and IC's day to day operation, dream on. Both corporations are essentially cash laden arms of the GOI, and as you probably know only too well, why should the GOI give up its shameful control of entities that pads its pockets? So your cries for a level playing field are essentially a cry for a utopia, when in fact the reality of governance in India runs opposite to this ideal.

At the end of the day, its not whether this is fair to AI or IC, its respective unions, or its aunty-jis. Its whether the Indian flying public is being adequately served with the best product at a cost that doesn't drain tax coffers. Better that be done with an Indian company that predominantly hires Indian nationals, than Emirates or Gulf Air or Etihad.


User currently offlineMdsh00 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4125 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2148 times:

As wonderful as AI's inflight service is, they can't come remotely close to Jet.

Jasepl,

I can't agree with you more. I have to disagree with you about AI's service though. The couple times we flew AI in the early 90s, I, along with my parents got horrible treatment from the crew that we decided to never travel on AI again. Maybe we were getting the NRI treatment  Confused? That being said, I flew on Jet from BOM to AMD and DEL to AMD on IC. Jet was leaps and bounds better than IC on every aspect. I would definitely not mind traveling them internationally.



"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
User currently offlineA340roy From Germany, joined May 2004, 50 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2132 times:

Well, whatever, I think this was ound to happen, and of course, for the good of pvt. airlines and horrible for AI/IC. We will have 2 results of this whole issue, either AI/Ic pull up their game now...change drastically(which is so impossible) and COMPETE...or forget about it. employees of AI/IC pack bags and leave...which is so sad!

It is a shame on the Indian Govt. for really really NOT allowing AI/IC and their Management to freely make their move. Not saying that AI/IC have an amazing team of high class Managers...but hey...if at all AI/Ic were so horrible and un-professional, it definitely would not survive till date.

I am very happy for Jet and Sahara and am definitely proud that India is being represented by more than just AI/IC....but being optimistic, AI/IC...you need to work out modern management to simply survive, forget making profits now!

Roy..



AR-FRA
User currently offlineAirish From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 259 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2106 times:

The Communists won't be a problem then. One would have thought that they would object to this.


Also does anyone think that AI or IC will be given first rights refusal on routes before they are offered to the private airlines.

Also will we see AI launch a lot of new flights in a short space of time to stop private airlines from being able to operate some of these routes like YYZ for example.




Worlds Only Reputable Airline Air India! Some Of The Least: BA, Jet (9w), Kingfisher!
User currently offlineOurboeing From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 475 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2036 times:

I see a lot of you are putting AI and IC down but you know what, I have had worst service on a lot of other airlines. The latest being my Air Canada flight from YYZ-DEL and back. The flight to DEL was okay but the one back was full of flight attendants from hell. As we all know, that particular flight has a lot of non-english speaking senior Indians flying to YYZ and I overheard these two FAs talking as they were just about to roll the food cart out. The exact words out of one of the FAs mouth were, "Lets go back to the jungle". My wife and I were stunned at their behavior. Another one of the flight attendants refused to refill this woman's coffee and very bluntly told her that he will come back and attend to her after he is done serving everyone else. I actually listed my whole experience here when I got back from that trip and had also emailed Air Canada and have not heard from them since. I will never EVER recommend anyone to fly that airline, even if it is for free. Atleast I won't.



User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1999 times:

"I see a lot of you are putting AI and IC down but you know what, I have had worst service on a lot of other airlines."

The inflight service on Air India is far, far, far superior than that on any North American carrier. But since when was that a standard? The service on Aeroflot pre-glasnost was probably superior to the obnoxious standards of service we endure on North American legacy carriers.


User currently offlineStealthpilot From India, joined May 2004, 510 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1959 times:

I won’t talk about service standards, but I do believe (as does everyone) that private carriers should be allowed to fly wherever and whenever they want.

AI (and IC s) biggest objection is that 9W and S2 will fly away with the market while they can’t because, to put it simply the government runs them. I mean in terms of scheduling, buying new aircraft or whatever it takes way too much time everyone knows that. So in a very small way AI and IC have a point.
But the main point they are missing (AI pilots/unions and everyone) is that the market is going to walk away anyway. If passengers don’t fly AI they fly a foreign carrier. So big deal if Jet or Sahara step in. Presently almost 70% of international bound passengers fly on foreign carriers, so why is AI complaining of domestic competition from 9W?? Let them use the unused bilateral and fly…… it doesn’t hurt AI or IC anymore than if people fly EK or LH!!!
Let private carriers fly abroad….. then fix AI’s problems.



eP007
User currently offlineIndianguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1861 times:


Also does anyone think that AI or IC will be given first rights refusal on routes before they are offered to the private airlines.

That is a stupid and retrograde idea. But cosnidering the record of the Bharat sarkaar on this, i dont think that would be impossible!!

If the govt,using its infinite wisdom, sees the need for state-owned carriers, then by all means have them. Even go ahead and make it compulsory for Govt employees to travel only on AI/IC, a rule that now remains only on paper.

But atleast ensure that there is a complete level playing field, atleast operationally. Private carriers (and even IC) must have the freedom to operate on routes they deem profitable:domestic or international. The bilaterals are not the property of Air India but of the govt of India and all Indian carriers must have access to them. Govt and privately owned airlines can exist and compete together. What is needed is the mechanism that allows fair competition.

The first step should be to set up a Commercial Regulatory Authority on the lines of TRAI. After all Telecom is the other sector where people made similar arguments about govt owned cos and pvt cos! But today we do have the Govt owned BSNL competing with the private cos like AirTel, Idea and BPL!

Hopefully we will see such a body being setup after Prafull Patel is shown the door sometime next month as expected .

-Roy


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 21, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1857 times:

Hopefully we will see such a body being setup after Prafull Patel is shown the door sometime next month as expected .
Is there a change expected in the Aviation Ministry.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineMrNiji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1831 times:

yet EK will probably launch multiple A380s to India in a few years.

The question is where they can land.. seeing the present standards of teh airport-dumps in India, I would be surprised if an A380 can be treated properly


User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1840 times:

does anyone think that AI or IC will be given first rights refusal on routes before they are offered to the private airlines

AI/IC already have de-facto right of refusal on routes now. If the frequencies are dormant, then they are not using them. Once they open it up to private carriers, it has to be completely open. No preference, no interference, nothing.

the main point they are missing (AI pilots/unions and everyone) is that the market is going to walk away anyway

Actually Nikhil, it is you that is missing the point. AI has absolutely no objection to competition from private airlines. AI actually faces direct competition (defined as 10% elapsed time differential) on ~98% of its ASMs, the only routes without competition being Dar-Es-Salaam and Al-Ain.

Air India's market share of O&D international traffic (FY2003-4 figures) is just above 18%, with another 7% to Indian Airlines, 1% to Jet/Sahara and the remaining 74% to foreign carriers. IC's domestic market share is now in the 41% range, with 44% to Jet Airways, 10% to Sahara, 4% to Air India and 1% to others. Hardly indicative of an airline environment without competition.

However, "competition" only truly exists in an open market. As long as artificially imposed constraints exist via bilateral capacity limits (and that alas is a fact of doing international flying anywhere in the world) there is only a finite sized pie to carve up. Rather than hand the pie to someone else to eat because it is too large for Air India to eat in one bite, simply give Air India the tools to cut it. Then everyone can get a slice. Forcing Air India to eat the pie with its hands tied behind its back simply makes a mess of the pie for everyone concerned. In fact, you'll wind up with pie in your face! Liberalize bilaterals first (via open skies agreements such as are in place with the SAARC countries and some ASEAN countries) and then make operating rights available to any qualified airline. But hey, thats the logical way to do it. Better to just get into a frenzy and jump to premature decisions to suit Naresh Goyal's pocket instead.

And finally, before people start getting too excited, let see just where does India have this dormant undesignated bilateral capacity available to that the media keeps crowing about. The answer might surprise you (Source : DGCA).

Afghanistan
Algeria
Armenia
Azerbaijan
Belarus
Belgium
Brazil
Brunei
Bulgaria
Cambodia
Croatia
Cyprus
Czech Republic
Denmark
Djibouti
Ethiopia
Fiji
Finland
Georgia
Ghana
Greece
Hungary
Iran
Iraq
Ireland
Jordan
Korea, North
Kyrghyzstan
Latvia
Lebanon
Lesotho
Lithuania
Luxembourg
Macao
Madagascar
Malta
Mongolia
Morocco
New Zealand
Nigeria
Norway
Philippines
Poland
Portugal
Romania
Seychelles
Slovakia
Slovenia
Spain
Sweden
Syria
Tajikistan
Tunisia
Turkmenistan
Uganda
Ukraine
Yemen
Yugoslavia
Zambia

I'm sure we'll see some Kolkata-Pyongyang nonstops once Jet Airways is given international authority. And the Indian community in Lesotho must be chuffed now that Maseru will be connected to Sahara's "Hub Hyderabad". After all, the media believes that private airlines are the solution to everyone's problems right?


User currently offlineOurboeing From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 475 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1809 times:

"The question is where they can land"

Where can they land is a good question. But since this is brought up, have they installed the ILS at Delhi airport yet? This was back in 2001 that I was flying out of New Delhi and the Cathay Pacific flight I was flying was supposed to leave at 1:00AM and the boarding was on time and before we could take off,I fell asleep. I woke up and looked at my watch and we were in the airplane for a good two hours and the person sitting next to me told me that we had not taken off yet. After sitting in the airplane for another hour or so, we were told to deplane. This is funny, we waited hours to the daylight and then another few for the fog to clear up. I met Prannoy Roy while waiting for the flight and there were a few of us talking and someone mentioned that Indian government had bought the ILS eight years ago (1993) and that it had been sitting in the box it came in after all these years. I don't know how much of this is true but if it is, it is pathetic.
Maybe we need to ask Prafull Patel about it Smile



25 B747-437B : I don't know how much of this is true Apart from the fact that your CX flight was delayed, pretty much none of it is true. But thats typical of the mi
26 Airish : Did not know that AI was designated for so many other countries that it is currently not flying to. Could the private airlines apply for these rights
27 Jaysit : "Rather than hand the pie to someone else to eat because it is too large for Air India to eat in one bite, simply give Air India the tools to cut it."
28 Ourboeing : B747-437B, My CX flight was not the only one that was delayed. The whole airport was shut down for departing as well as arriving flights. Well, here i
29 Karan69 : was delayed for 2 hours just because the newly elected prime minister Manmohan Singh was coming back after his first overseas trip. Delhi airport was
30 Jaysit : "At least this time the share will be going to an Indian CO. that pays taxes." My point exactly. And at least the failures of any private carrier will
31 Vimanav : The question is where they can land.. seeing the present standards of teh airport-dumps in India, I would be surprised if an A380 can be treated prope
32 Ourboeing : Karan69, I promise I will leave this issue alone after this one. You said: "I think u probably are unfortunate that these instances have occured with
33 Vimanav : Whatever happened to Safderjung (sp??)airport?? To be shortly turned into a golf course, shopping complex, zoo, housing complex, God alone knows what
34 Jaysit : ""unfortunately like the other DEVELOPED NATIONS we dont have any secondary airports for civil use-In any CITY "" Change that to: "unfortunately like
35 Stealthpilot : B747-437B…. Sorry about the confusion. The point I was trying to make was that in the past the government, GOI, AND national carriers have made a fu
36 Karan69 : Delhi's infamous fog, thousands of others get stuck at the airport year after year and the government has not done anything about it they did instal s
37 Sshank : "Rather than hand the pie to someone else to eat because it is too large for Air India to eat in one bite, simply give Air India the tools to cut it."
38 Jaysit : "AI may come of badly in the process - so what? Too bad for AI, but the passengers will be better served in any case by the private carriers and that'
39 Jasepl : The "dormant undesignated bilateral capacity" list is all very well in theory. After looking at it, I would conclude that AI and IC have been allocate
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