I'd really like to know what Argentines in particular think about this, I'm still having a hard time believing this will happen. Till now virtually nothing about this has been written here, or anywhere for that matter. Bottom line, if this is really true, I don't like it.
I'll post a thread in the non-aviation forum, if someone wants to make political comments (I'd actually REALLY appreciate if Marambio, LVZXV, Lima, JJ, Argentina, etc have something to say... Is this a "K" idea?). For the purpose of this thread, I'm just wondering how this will affect, if in anyway, civil aviation in Argentina.
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
Yu138086 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 1, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks ago) and read 2693 times:
Probably just another idea buy some government bureaucrat to put $$$ in the pockets of corrupt political officials. In Argentina the story is always the same... It all starts out as a master plan then it gets thrown away/forgotten about and the typical end result is millions of dollars wasted on corrupt officials with no end result/solution.
If it comes true, whats the point? Who is Argentina's enemy? Don't make the slow immigration lines even slower!
JohnJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1621 posts, RR: 3 Reply 3, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks ago) and read 2652 times:
On a somewhat related topic, what happened to Brazil fingerprinting US citizens? I went to Rio in September fully expecting the fingerprinting routine upon arrival there, but was surprised to breeze right through customs at GIG with barely a glance at my passport. I assume that practice has ended?
Usatoeze From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 358 posts, RR: 2 Reply 4, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2621 times:
Waste....and stupid....
The keep saying in BA that they have other things to worry about rather than offering creditors a decent offer...I guess they needed the extra money to go to stupid schemes like this..one could only drive the 10km from Gral. Paz to Ezeiza to know that the money could be spent more usefully elsewhere. Perhaps fixing a few of the many leaking roofs at schools in Gran BsAs would be a place to start....
Hardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 51 Reply 7, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2563 times:
If the US is doing it whay can't any other country do it as well???
---------
Yu138086:
Corruption? Why don't you use the same argument for the US immigration? Give me a break! Lines slower?? And what about MIA and JFK or EWR. This month I had to go to EWR and the immigration was a pain! I think before making comments about other countries you better look at the immigration situation in the US, which I think is a complete mess - sorry the words.
---------------
Derico:
Are they going to the the fingerprinting/photographs for ALL countries or only US citizens? Anything more specific?
I think this policy by the Argentine Government is in the framewrok of what we call in international law "reciprocity", and this is perfectly understandable.
For example, an Argentinian or Brazilian does not need tourist VISA for Europe, therefore, an European does not need a tourist VISA for these countries. Since the US requests VISA for both Argentinians and Brazilians, these countries also request US citizens to have a VISA. Is simply a tit-for-tat situation. It is because of this very "reciprocity" that today Brazil and Argentina achieved the status of countries which dont need VISA for Europe, so it works somehow as a pressure mechanism. Of course, it only works for big countries such as Brazil, Argentina, China, India, South Africa, etc.
Another point: isn't the US State Department stating that there is terrorist group acitvities in the triple border Argentina-Brazil-Paraguay? So now these countries are implementing security measures, right?
MIASkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 1336 posts, RR: 1 Reply 8, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2515 times:
I think it's great, if those are the steps the Argentinian Government needs to take to make their country feel more "Secure" then so be it. It will definetly not stop me from visting there...it is a great place!
As far as long lines....get over it people, we are living in a post 911 world, people need to learn to deal with it and move on.
Panamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4595 posts, RR: 25 Reply 9, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2462 times:
"For example, an Argentinian or Brazilian does not need tourist VISA for Europe, therefore, an European does not need a tourist VISA for these countries. Since the US requests VISA for both Argentinians and Brazilians, these countries also request US citizens to have a VISA. Is simply a tit-for-tat situation"
Actually, US citizens don't need a tourist visa for Argentina.
Usatoeze From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 358 posts, RR: 2 Reply 10, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2370 times:
"For example, an Argentinian or Brazilian does not need tourist VISA for Europe, therefore, an European does not need a tourist VISA for these countries. Since the US requests VISA for both Argentinians and Brazilians, these countries also request US citizens to have a VISA. Is simply a tit-for-tat situation"
As Panamair already mentioned US Citizens do not need Visas for Argentina. Also it is a whole lot easier for Argentines to get visas than Brazilians, but that has nothing to do with your tit-for-tat ideas. It has to do with the fact that there are many Brazilians in the USA illegally and very few illegal Argentines. Uruguayans have an even easier time getting a visa because there are even less illegals from Uruguay...Chile as well.
Hardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 51 Reply 11, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2304 times:
Usatoeze:
Could you please be more specific? Do you have statistics? In absolute number I am sure you will have more illegal Brazilians in the US, simply because the Brazilian population is much numerous than Argentina + Chile + Uruguay together!
As far as I known Argentines, Brazilians, Uruguayans and Chileans receive the same treatment and ALL need to get VISA for the US!
I will repeat, the Brazilian Foreign Ministry bases ALL its decisions for VISA in the framework of " reciprocity". That's why Brazilians don't need VISA for Europe and vice-versa. I think this is a fair policy.
Usatoeze From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 358 posts, RR: 2 Reply 12, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2230 times:
First of all you posted an article that is almost 3 years old. Things have changed a great deal since then. That was just after the height of the crisis and 9/11 and almost nobody was getting a visa into and out of the US from Argentina. Things are much much different now in terms of wait times and approval percentages. I can tell you that because I deal with many Argentines getting visas and Feb 2002 was bad for everybody. The article has very little relevance to today.
If I had more than a minute to respond than I would find a few websites to show you that the percentages of Brazilians(As a percentage of total population) estimated to be illegally in the USA is much higher than the percentage of Argentines, Chileans, or Uruguayans living in the USA. The visa waiver program was last canceled for Uruguay, and the biggest reason for the the cancellation of the Visa Waiver program with Lat Am countries is too many illegals and not issues of money or other things as in other countries. Even without reciprocity or if Brazil lightened up on US visitors Brazil would never get a Visa Waiver.
As far as I known Argentines, Brazilians, Uruguayans and Chileans receive the same treatment and ALL need to get VISA for the US!
Well if you dealt with this often as some of us do then you would clearly know that is not the case. Brazilians face much more scrutiny because there are many more illegals(BTW Brazil has only 5 to 6 times the population of Argentina and more than 10 times the illegals...give me a few days to find you the estimates).
and BTW US immigration is not Corrupt...it is slow and unorganized and has many problems. Do you know what corrupt means?
Hardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 51 Reply 13, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2227 times:
Usatoeze:
I never said US immigration was corrupt. Just that someone on the forum called Argentina a corrupt country and I found it unfair.
I will repeat the post here (Reply: 1) above:
"Probably just another idea buy some government bureaucrat to put $$$ in the pockets of corrupt political officials. In Argentina the story is always the same... It all starts out as a master plan then it gets thrown away/forgotten about and the typical end result is millions of dollars wasted on corrupt officials with no end result/solution"
Again, the situation changed in Argentina, after the crisis, as it changed in Brazil!
There are illegal LatAm in the US in general, and please dont try to make the Brazilians look as the " bad boy" ....There are Brazilians illegal the same was as they are Argentinians, etc.
Yet again, Argentinians and Brazilian both NEED TO APPLY FOR VISA TO ENTER THE US. The Procedure is exactly the same and the waiting time the SAME!
I will not keep on discussing this issue, because next you will tell me that Argentina is better than Brazil in soccer (although Brazil won the World Cup and Americas Cup!)
Usatoeze From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 358 posts, RR: 2 Reply 14, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2183 times:
This is the best link I can find on short notice. Im not trying to start an Argentina vs Brazil contest..im just saying that there is a clear difference in visa acceptance rates as well as a clear difference in the number and increase of illegal immigrants to the USA between Argentina and Brazil. Argentina and Uruguay once did well enough to qualify for the Visa Waiver program, which is something that Brazil has not done. Yes it has gotten worse in all countries, and yes the written policies and regulations are the same. The time it takes to process a visa and the costs are the same, but the approval rates are better in Argentina. You can argue with me all day if you want, and you can quote many articles...but even in the past few years when things have changed so much in these countries it is still harder for a person in Brazil to get a visa compared with Argentines and especially Uruguayans.
It is a sad thing that all of these countries were discussing cant be on the Visa Waiver and save us all headaches.
Hardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 51 Reply 15, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2168 times:
Interesting that the data you found is from 1990 to 2000...
"it is still harder for a person in Brazil to get a visa compared with Argentines and especially Uruguayans."
I disagree with you. The procedure and waiting time is exactly the SAME. The same way you have a higher number of Brazilians illegally in the US, you also have a higher number of Brazilians legally in the US...all is relative...
LVZXV From Gabon, joined Mar 2004, 2041 posts, RR: 44 Reply 16, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2159 times:
Que va!
You waste enough time at immigration as it is without the introduction of a new gimmick whose origins are I'm sure that peanut inside Kirchner's head that he thinks passes for a brain.
Seriously, if he's using the Isreali Embassy and AMIA bombings as an excuse, shame on him. Remember when K recently announced the discovery of dozens of tape recording that could supposedly shed light on who was behind the latter bombing. Within a day, his aides were backtracking, claiming K had been misunderstood, and when that failed, government officials said it was all big mistake, forgetting to mention the buffoon who made it.
The whole investigation is a farce, for one thing, and as for the "Hizbollah cells" up in the Triple Frontera, lest we forget how Menem dealt with them. In 1998, in order to win favour from Clinton, Menem turned-in a number of suspected terrorists and drug-traffickers to the CIA, when in fact, some of them may well have helped Menem come to power a decade earlier. A classic story of betrayal? Quite possibly.
On the other hand, I see this photo and fingerprinting policy as tit-for-tat, but the exercise is pointless because:
1. North American and European tourists are flooding Argentina with much needed foreign capital.
2. IF this is some form of protest against the CAT II restrictions affecting Argentine airlines, it is too little too late.
3. It will dissuade airlines from flying to EZE, especially those who are in the process of resuming services suspended during the crisis (DL) or those upping their weekly frequencies (BA).
If this is some sort of counter-terrorist stunt, the joke is on K. Any existing terrorists are already in Argentina, or more probably, basking in anonymity in Ciudad del Este, Paraguay.
I find this very hard to take seriously, and if the new law does come into force, let's just hope it is permeable and flexible as all other existing laws in Argentina, for the sake of all us.
With Castells out of his Chaco prison, summer approaching fast, the prospect of Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner becoming Governess of Buenos Aires province, and 3 years left for the penguin, I honestly worry more than ever for Argentina's health and sanity. As my great-grandad said 40 years ago, somos locos de verano.
When will someone do us a favour and shoot the penguin?
Marambio From Argentina, joined Oct 2004, 1158 posts, RR: 28 Reply 17, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2106 times:
Good afternoon gentlemen,
Very interesting topic, Derico. It's been months since a poster at EZE says "The National Migrations Department is developing a new programme, aiming at making faster your migration proceedings." I was really interested on knowing what this was about.
Basically this program is an upgrade of the old forms you were given before landing at any Argentine airport. These forms always end up at an archive, where they obviously cannot be properly processed. I believe it will be an advantage for both passengers (passport control will be shorter) and Government (this new program will reduce costs).
This said, the new proceedings will take place for both Argentine nationals and foreigners. So don't start with the hate-US thingy, because it isn't targeting Americans only.
Finally, the fingerprints won't be made with ink but digitally. I know no fingerprint is better, but still this is way more than acceptable. Here in Argentina we're also fingertiped when we renew any of our national IDs (DNI, Cédula or Passport). So this is no news for us.
I know this can be misunderstood by foreigners, since in other countries, e.g. Germany, this is done to suspects only. But come on, how long does it take to put your finger in a touchscreen and smile to a camera?
Saludos,
Marambio
Aerolíneas Argentinas - La Argentina que levanta vuelo.
LVZXV From Gabon, joined Mar 2004, 2041 posts, RR: 44 Reply 18, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2074 times:
Marambio:
Wherever there is potential for efficiency in Argentina, there is just as much potential for chaos and disaster. Just picture the beautiful new system in a "3 flights arriving at once scenario"...seconds count!
Guess it won't make much difference which passport I use in future...
Marambio From Argentina, joined Oct 2004, 1158 posts, RR: 28 Reply 19, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2048 times:
Hola XV,
Wherever there is potential for efficiency in Argentina, there is just as much potential for chaos and disaster. Just picture the beautiful new system in a "3 flights arriving at once scenario"...seconds count!
I understand what you mean, but according to you it's better to no hacer nada and let everything like it is now. We can always close down all our international airports, and eliminate lots of dangers and problems!
The so famous "3-at-once" scenario I don't know why you guys always mention it. I fly to/from Europe every three months, and I always land at EZE with two other European biggies. I agree passport control is never done in a breeze, but still it's not that bad. Most of the time between landing and leaving the airport takes me about half an hour. I believe it's about the same everywhere else in the world. Last time it took me longer to do migrations at FRA (with German passport) than at EZE (with Argentine passport).
This said, I also believe the new customs system, with the X-Ray machines, was a big improvement. No todo es malo en la Argentina.
Anyway, we'll have to wait and see how this works!
Saludos,
Marambio
Aerolíneas Argentinas - La Argentina que levanta vuelo.
Arcano From Chile, joined Mar 2004, 2398 posts, RR: 26 Reply 20, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2001 times:
For example, an Argentinian or Brazilian does not need tourist VISA for Europe, therefore, an European does not need a tourist VISA for these countries
Americans don't need VISA for Chile, but recalling reciprocity, they are demanded to pay US$100 when they arrive in Chile (valid for the whole passport period, regardless the number of entries).
As for the immigration, Chile has one the lowerest rate of rejected applications for US VISA in the region, so the arguments above are valid despite the differences of population.
In a related subject, since Chile is hosting next week the APEC CEO summit, including "celebrities" as Bush and Putin together, SCL has very severe security measures, starting some months ago. They do photograph you and you pass though very extra controls you don't even know. The same for freight and luggage.
Cheers )( Arcano
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773 and 380
EZEIZA From Argentina, joined Aug 2004, 4943 posts, RR: 28 Reply 21, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 1990 times:
Hola a todos,
I was not able to open the link to La Razon. However, I'm not sure wether its such a bad idea ... or a good one for that matter. My point is that I'm not sure it will make going through customs that much slower, or at least, it will still be faster than in the US. In any case, is it possibe that the extra screening will be applied because of foreign advice (FAA)? Again, i wa snot able to read the article so maybe this has already been answered. By the way, will this be applied to everyone arriving at EZE (including Argentos)?
saludos
ps:ZXV, que tal va todo por aca? hasta cuandot e quedas?
Like Marambio said, this *would* apply to all foreigners, not just Americans for those who were asking. And guess what? Argentines too! So I have to agree in the opinion that this is not a tit-for-tat with the US.
If it really was about US immigration policy, Argentina would have pulled a 'Brazil' about 2 years ago. For once I was very proud of the Argentine government not reciprocating a silly policy. By this I'm not saying countries don't have the right to do fingerprints/etc, I just think it's a bit over the top. And again in Argentina's case, everyone would have to do this, not just a particular nationality. I just really hate the government keeping records of you, and the paranoia of the process. I trust the US government about the same as I do ARG's government: not at all.
Not all may be bad in Argentina, but LVZXV is right in saying that something that in theory should speed up things at the immigration lines might do the exact opposite in a country such as ARG. I don't share LVZXV's negative view of Argentina, but his concerns are valid.
I just think that the timing is a little bad, since 100% of people visiting Argentina are curious, well-intentioned tourists. Oh well. I hope tourists don't feel singled out as they will see the natives going through it too!!
Arcano,
Mar del Plata will have the VERY dubious honor of 'W', 'K', 'Lula', Fox, Lagos, and the rest of the gang next year paying a visit. I feel sorry for them... (about the only good thing to come out of that will be the remodeling of MDQ)
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
25 LVZXV: Hola Marambio: My Iberian experience? See Replies # 133 & 140 in this thread: http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1806656/
26 Yu138086: How about spending the necessary dollars to fix/upgrade your shabby Arrivals level first so your visitors dont have to stand up top the escalator when
27 Bogota: I do not know what the fuzz is all about, I find it great that Argentinians are modernizing their inmigration process, anyhow that will become the fut
28 Marambio: How about spending the necessary dollars to fix/upgrade your shabby Arrivals level first so your visitors dont have to stand up top the escalator when
29 Derico: ZXV, You don't have to explain anything to me. I know that when you point out those gaucho foibles that seem impossible to shake off, you do it becaus
30 L410Turbolet: How about spending the necessary dollars to fix/upgrade your shabby Arrivals level first so your visitors dont have to stand up top the escalator when
31 EZEIZA: "How about spending the necessary dollars to fix/upgrade your shabby Arrivals level first so your visitors dont have to stand up top the escalator whe
32 LVZXV: Hola Derico: I'm sorry for having not added you to my R/U list sooner! And thank you for bringing up Lavagna; everytime I think of Argentine politics
33 Hardiwv: ZXV, Good to see you are back! We all missed your comments on LatAm aviation. Certainly you know that one of the best skills of the LatAm economies is
34 LVZXV: Hardi: I was pretty frantic in BA as I was there only 6 days! With regards to Argentina's GDP, well compare and contrast their 10.6% contraction in 20
35 Hardiwv: "Airports? I agree, most are awful, but in all of Western Europe, I think London (LCY, LGW, LHR, STN) has the most hassle-free airports for a capital
36 LVZXV: I understand your disappointments with the "stop-and-go" workings of the LatAm economies. But don't think that Argentina is the single case, Brazil, a
37 Derico: That post blew me away, what a way with words my GOD!! As a little comment on the side, I have decided (well, decided a couple of years ago), to not e
38 Marambio: Hola XV, First of all, thanks for some good laughs I had while reading your posts. I guess that's another Argentine thing -- we love laughing at ourse
39 LVZXV: Gracias Derico y Marambio! I totally agree with your comments about the past, Derico, but many Argentines (well, not us in the forum so much) are quit
40 Pdpsol: LVZXV, As usual, another pair of your entertaining, well-written posts always puts me in a good mood. I COMPLETELY agree with your analysis regarding
41 LVZXV: Pdpsol: Argentina is not perfect; the nation has a complex past. The challenge is for its people to recognize their unique worth and reach for their d
42 Matt777: "If you knew something about Argentine recent history, you'd know that in 2001/2002 Argentina suffered the worst economy crisis on its 188-year histor
43 Matt777: Argentina should compare itself with Australia, not with Bolivia, Paraguay, Chile, Brazil, Uruguay etc.
44 EZEIZA: Hi everyone, I'm happy to see that all Argentos are agreeing on everything posted here. That doesn't happen too often in the streets fo our cities, ri
45 LVZXV: Matt777: I'm not sure how strong a connection you have with Argentina, but the points you make about Menem are not entirely true. First, although the
46 Derico: It's true the peso was overvalued by 97 at the .98 = 1 dollar official rate, but neither Menem nor any polititian would dare touch it. People (not jus
47 LVZXV: EZEIZA: toco fondo=touched base I'm as surprised as you are over the level of agreement among us "Argentos"; we tend to agree to disagree, like you sa
Sponsor Message: 
From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4233 posts, 
From , joined Dec 1969, posts, 
From Mexico, joined Oct 1999, 1539 posts, 
From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, 
From Gabon, joined Mar 2004, 2041 posts, 
From Chile, joined Mar 2004, 2398 posts, 
Printer friendly format 
