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Varig MD11 From Sao Paulo To Munich  
User currently offlineFlymunich From Germany, joined Mar 2004, 171 posts, RR: 0
Posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 6556 times:

New Varig flights to Munich/Germany:

Munich - Sao Paulo:
------7  1145  1905  RG  8773  M11  06.02.05
----5--  1950  0310+ RG  8771  M11  04.02.05
--3----  2015  0335+ RG  8771  M11  02.02.05
1------  2135  0455+ RG  8771  M11  07.02.05

Sao Paulo - Munich:
------7  1615  0850  RG  8772  M11  06.02.05
1-3-5--  2105  1340  RG  8770  M11  02.02.05

57 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4517 posts, RR: 72
Reply 1, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 6465 times:

What about the proposed extension to PEK? Nothing's been heard about this project for quite some time now, although it was supposed to happen in August of this year. By now, also CA is crowding the route... Incidentally, have you taken a look at these arrival times into GRU? Wouldn't want to be getting in there at 03.10 am.

Edited to add that the operating days seem not to be correct. A Varig plane cannot leave GRU for MUC and return to MUC the same day. GRU-MUC is an overnighter.

[Edited 2004-11-09 12:57:23]

User currently offlineFlymunich From Germany, joined Mar 2004, 171 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 6439 times:

Sorry HB-IWC,

the complete routing ist MUC-GRU-GIG!!!

Timetable MUC - GIG:

------7 1145 2105 RG 8773 M11 via GRU 06.02.05
----5-- 1950 0510+ RG 8771 M11 via GRU 04.02.05
--3---- 2015 0535+ RG 8771 M11 via GRU 02.02.05
1------ 2135 0655+ RG 8771 M11 via GRU 07.02.05


User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 6431 times:

I'm wondering how long the service will last. Last time Varig was successful on the route, big boss LH introduced own flights and kicked Varig out. Let's wait and see...


Regards
Udo


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 4, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6403 times:

Very interesting news!

Yesterday a read a press interview with VARIG CEO, Mr. Martins, and he said that RG would start services to PEK, via MUC, in late December/05. However, negotiations with AC and Chinese authorities are still ongoing. This month a big Chinese delegation is arriving in Brazil, including the Chinese President, and RG flights GRU-MUC-PEK will be part of the side-line discussions. The intention is to operate codeshare with AC, mix crew RG/AC, with RG metal. Flights to MUC would then operate with the 777 - RG would received two additional 777s in December.

Flymunich:
HB-IWC:

"Incidentally, have you taken a look at these arrival times into GRU? Wouldn't want to be getting in there at 03.10 am."

I think the travel time is an excellent alternative for two reasons. 1) Simply because if you are an experienced traveler to GRU you will note that at about 6-7am the rush hour starts and to go from GRU (Guarulhos) to downtown Sao Paulo you can get stuck on the traffic. From GRU to downtown at 3-4am it may take you only 20min and clear traffic, but at rush hour in the morning it is easily over 1h; 2) so early in the morning the immigration line is not crowded. At 6-8am, when a lot of interncontinental flights arrive, you can easily spend about 2h in the immigration line.

-------
Wow, so RG now is operating three daily flights to Germany:

GRU-FRA (B777)
CPQ-GIG-FRA (MD11)
GIG-GRU-MUC (MD11) - maybe this gets extended to PEK in December

Let's see and wait for LH reaction!

Rgs,
Hardi


User currently offlineN1120a From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26815 posts, RR: 75
Reply 5, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 6241 times:

What does Air Canada have to do with this? Big grin


Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 6, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 6232 times:

Sorry, I meant CA and not AC!!

Hardi


User currently offlineN1120a From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26815 posts, RR: 75
Reply 7, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 6230 times:

>Sorry, I meant CA and not AC!!<

No worries. I think it is funny how a Nederlander knows Brazil better than most Brazilians. Thanks Hardi



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 8, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6035 times:

Udo:

In order to avoid a reaction of LH in this newly established flight, it seems that RG will operated 4 x week MD11 and LH will operate 3 x week, therefore RG and LH will "share" the market.

Altogether, we will have the following flights Brazil-Germany:

RG:
GRU-FRA (MD11) = 7 x week;
CPQ-GIG-FRA (MD11) = 7 x week;
GRU-MUC (MD11) = 4 x week;

LH:
GIG-GRU-FRA (747-400) = 7 x week
GRU-MUC (A340) = 3 x week;

Flights MUC-GRU will start 1 February/05.

Rgs,
Hardi


User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4517 posts, RR: 72
Reply 9, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 5957 times:

The RG operated flights have been loaded in the CRS, and the earlier discussed very early arrival times at GRU seem not to be correct after all. Here's what's in the CRS:

RG8772 GRU MUC 1705 0850+ (-----6-)
GR8770 GRU MUC 2155 1340+ (-2-4--7)

RG8773 MUC GRU 1145 2015 (------7)
RG8771 MUC GRU 2135 0605+(1-3-5--)

As usual with RG Europe-GRU traffic, all flights originate in and continue to GIG.

As for LH operating thrice weekly MUC-GRU flights, that would be a resumption of this route for the airline and given its history of retaliating partner airlines' moves to operate new flights into Germany, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the airline were to soon make a press statement announcing its return to the route.

Last time something similar happened, was when SAA announced thrice weekly FRA-CPT nonstop operations. Lufthansa within days announced its own daily service on the route, thereby effectively withdrawing the quite successful MUC-JNB service.



User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 10, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 5854 times:

HB-IWC:

Thanks for the updates on the RG's flights, and posting the information that the flights will continue to GIG = MUC-GRU-GIG.

Apparently there have been some conversations between RG and LH about the operations to MUC, and they decided to "share" the flights in such a way that RG will operate 4 x week (MD11) and LH 3 x week (A340). This seems an adequate solution. But let's wait and see. Last time RG tried to go for MUC, LH killed RG intension by introducing competing flights...it shows how LH treats its partner airlines!

CHINA:

RG'S flights to MUC are also supposed to have a continuation to PEK starting in Feb/Mar-05. Exact details of the complete route GIG-GRU-MUC-PEK will be provided by RG at the end of the month. RG will then change the a/c to the B777. Two extra B777s are to be received until the end of the year.

Rgs,
Hardi


User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4517 posts, RR: 72
Reply 11, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 5706 times:

Apparently there have been some conversations between RG and LH about the operations to MUC, and they decided to "share" the flights in such a way that RG will operate 4 x week (MD11) and LH 3 x week (A340). This seems an adequate solution.

Actually, it's anything but an adequate solution when you look at it from a commercial point of view. Once LH's schedules for the route are loaded, you will see daily service in one of the two directions (presumably MUC-GRU) and double services on certain days with no services on the other days in the opposite direction.

In the spirit of true partnership, and in the interest of offering a suitable schedule for passengers, only one of the partner airlines should operate this route, and do so on a daily basis if the demand is really there. Wasn't the Star Alliance all about offering more choices to its passengers...

But Lufthansa is apparently not subscribing to this philosophy. If they open their own MUC-GRU flights, then only 2 longhaul flights ex MUC will remain dormant: LH has withdrawn from both SIN and JNB. We are however guaranteed to see LH relaunch service on the route if either SQ or SA should decide to operate the flights themselves.



User currently offlineS.p.a.s. From Liechtenstein, joined Mar 2001, 967 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (10 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5583 times:

hardi,

Just for the records, RG 5th B772ER arrived a few days ago at GIG and is undergoing maintenance work, they are planning EIS in about 20 days or so.

Reg. is PP-VRE ex-N207UA

Cheers



"ad astra per aspera"
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 13, posted (10 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 5486 times:

S.p.a.s.:

Excellent news! Apparently a sixth B777 is arriving before the end of December/04, right!?

Do you know the route they will use the fifth B777?

Currently VARIG serves the following cities with the B777:
MIA, MEX, CCS, SCL, EZE.

Any chance to see RG flying the B777 to CDG-AMS again?

Tks,
Hardi


User currently offlineJoFMO From Germany, joined Jul 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (10 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 5395 times:

Hardiwv:

The 777 is also used for their daily GRU-FRA run.


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 15, posted (10 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5342 times:

JoFMO:

Thanks for the correction.

Indeed, RG B777s serve FRA (which is Star's hub), MIA, MEX, SCL, EZE, and CCS.

As pointed out by Spas, a fifth B777 already arrived, and I think it will serve CDG-AMS. The sixth B777 should go for JFK or LAX-NRT - this is my opinion!

Anyone knows about the routes of the next two B777s???

Tks,
Hardi




User currently offlineJoFMO From Germany, joined Jul 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (10 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5322 times:

Are their 777 significantly different equipped than their MD11?

Is there an advantage from a custumers point of view flying their 777 vs MD11?


User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (10 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5307 times:

B777s are equipped with PTVs in Economy, MD-11s aren't. However, in this particular case and as a holy exception, I would take the "11" over the 777...  Love


Regards
Udo


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 18, posted (10 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5302 times:

Are their 777 significantly different equipped than their MD11?

JoFMO:

I already travelled in both RG's MD11 and 777, and I can guarantee that the 777 is MUCH better, by the single fact that all seats have PTVs and they are newer. I have no doubt that the 777 is a superior a/c, and Im' glad to see RG phasing out the MD11s so as to introduce the 777s. It makes a real difference...Many airlines use the 777 for what they consider their "prime" routes. Sorry, but I cannot give you a more technical explanation...

Anyone knows the routes where the fifth, and sixth RG's B777 wil be deployed??

Tks,
Hardi


User currently offlineJoFMO From Germany, joined Jul 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (10 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5283 times:

phasing out?

Have they serious plans to replace their complete MD11 fleet with 777?

Are there some outstanding orders or do they collect teir 777 on the second hand market?


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 20, posted (10 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 5266 times:

JoFMO:

I see this is phasing out, but there is no serious "program" for fleet renewal from MD11s to 777s. Everybody knows RG's situation, with debts of about USD2.5 billion. As such, RG's collects the 777 in the second-hand market (ex-BA, ex-UA)

RG is faced with very strong competition in the international flights to/from GRU, in which airlines use their top products, and sometimes even launch their newest a/c and service (e.g. KL, SA). Just out of my memory, look at the products on offer to GRU: JJ (A330), LAN (A320), AA (B777), AF (B777), KL (B777), LX (A340), AZ (B777), SA (A340),...they are ALL superior than RG!

...if RG does not move, it will simply be left behind, something which is already happening...as it's now, people chose RG based on: 1) RG's quality name from the past (until mid-90s), 2) price; 3) "necessity", i.e. if you are travelling beyond GRU to a destination in Brazil.

Rgs,



[Edited 2004-11-16 17:46:20]

User currently offlineGlennpower From Brazil, joined Jul 2004, 102 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (10 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 5186 times:

Hardiwv,

You are absolutely right about RG,remember recently when they got i think it was 5 ex swiss MD11s ( i travelled on one from LHR to GRU,old and scruffy),at the same time swiss started A340 service to brasil,you can make your own conclusions,i am writing this sitting in the Americas lounge at Mia,i flew BA AMS to LHR then AA LHR to MIA today all in Y class,good flights especially
the AA flight,(only complaint a couple of the stewardesses were a bit dour).
I am now waiting to fly RG to GIG F class then from there to SSA J class on one of RGs new,oops sorry second hand Iberia 757s,am using my smiles miles as quickly as possible if Rg go belly up,which will proberbly happen unless they get Financial help from Brasilian goverment,I am a RG Diamond card holder and have been using Rg to Brasil for the last 14 or so years,but now i can not take it anymore,truly woefull service,thats why i have joined JJs Fidelidade program and flew AA today to start getting miles with JJ,hopefully within a few months i will get there Red card and soon after be able to try there J class,and who knows there F class product,and if as predicted they join Oneworld even better.Just a quick side note i will be trying Virgins new skysuite soon in the new year,really excited about that.
Always very interesting reading your posts.
Kind Regards Glenn Power.


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 22, posted (10 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5112 times:

Glenn:

You are absolutely right about RG,remember recently when they got i think it was 5 ex swiss MD11s

Indeed, RG introduced in its fleet about 5 (old) ex-LX MD11s, and guess what? The next day LX introduced a brand new A340 on its route ZRH-GRU. It just shows that RG is really going downhill. Of course, any top airline acquires itsa/c new so that it is tailor-made, such as JJ and even GOL does. Buying MD11s? Is RG a pax or cargo company?

second hand Iberia 757s

Yes, RG bought two second-hand 757s ex-IB. One after two weeks had an emmergency landing in POA...

I am a RG Diamond card holder and have been using Rg to Brasil for the last 14 or so years,but now i can not take it anymore

Completely uderstand your position. The problem is that RG dominates the international market to/from Brazil, and if your destination is not GRU you really need RG so as to connect. I'm FF of KL so I can also earn miles with JJ.

I think JJ has to be more aggressive in the international market, even if it entails flying routes which overlap with RG. At the end, RG cannot win a one-to-one competition with JJ, (just look at what happened in MIA and CDG!). JJ will also end its domestic + EZE + ASU codeshare agreement with RG, something it should have done a long time ago, othewise people cofuse the image of JJ with the one of RG.

predicted they join Oneworld

It makes all the sense for JJ to join OW, especially because of its excellent relations with, mainly AA, and also IB and BA. Maybe we could soon see JJ flying to LHR and MAD. It seems that JJ will start 3 x day flights to MIA.

Always very interesting reading your posts

Thank you! I hope we can get some more contributions fro you!

Rgs and enjoy SSA!

Hardi



User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33289 posts, RR: 71
Reply 23, posted (10 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5089 times:

It seems that JJ will start 3 x day flights to MIA.


Any more news on this? I have heard it will be GIG-MIA 6x a week and GIG-FOR-MIA on Wednesdays. Is this going to be the case?



a.
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 24, posted (10 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 5021 times:

MAH4546:

You're correct. JJ is about to increase its service to MIA, and the 7 x week additional flights would be 6 x week GIG-MIA and 1 x week GIG-FOR-MIA. Total number of flights to MIA would then be 21 x week.

Question: anyone knows on which routes is RG going to deploys the fifth and sixth B777s? My guess: CDG-AMS and JFK.

Rgs,
Hardi


25 Erikwilliam : MAH: there´s also a flight GIG-SSA-MIA on wed., seasonaly JJ flights to MIA are: JJ8090 GRU-MIA daily JJ8094 GRU-MIA mon-sat JJ8092 GRU-MIA only sun
26 MAH4546 : JJ flights to MIA are: JJ8090 GRU-MIA daily JJ8094 GRU-MIA mon-sat JJ8092 GRU-MIA only sun If U add everything gives U 14weekly flights GRU-MIA. JJ 80
27 Erikwilliam : MAH: I really don´t know about MIA-GIG, and MIA-FOR-GIG. Right now JJ is doing great with flights from GRU, and connecting SSA, MAO. Also, they need
28 MAH4546 : also, they need planes for it, and right now all of them are in use, or loaned to other carriers. They are getting more A330s (two, IIRC), soon.
29 B741 : I presume San Pablo has a large German,Japanese and Italian population.
30 PPVRA : Going back to the 'topic', what are the chances of RG returning to HKG? There must be some demand... specially if they fly it through MAD (IB isn't fl
31 HB-IWC : IB isn't flying to China anymore, right? Have they ever? Not in the last decade for sure. Their last flight into the Far East was the MAD-SVO-NRT flig
32 Post contains images PPVRA : Indeed, I was reading the other threads and there was something about IB and their flights to China, I'll be more careful next time. PPVRA
33 JJMNGR : TAM intl flights indeed starts in GIG, with one stop in GRU and aircraft change.
34 Persotvik : Hi folks! RG does NOT use the B777 on the GIG-FRA route, they use the M11. B777's are sometimes used on the MAD flights. persotvik
35 Post contains links Hardiwv : Persotvik: RG does use the 777-200 to FRA. Please look at their webpage http://www.varig.com/ Note that RG has TWO daily flights to FRA, one with the
36 JoFMO : But CPQ-GRU-FRA has an equipment change in GRU following my informations from 733 to MD11. It has just the same flight number
37 Mozart : Not sure whether this brings some clarification, but here's an excerpt of the Star Alliance timetable for the week of Nov 22-Nov 29: GIG-FRA is daily
38 The777Man : Good question, Mozart! Varig's 767s including the -300s seems to have disappeared from the scheduled, having been replaced by M11s. Any more info ? Th
39 Hardiwv : But CPQ-GRU-FRA has an equipment change in GRU following my informations from 733 to MD11 The correct flight itinerary is CPQ-GIG-FRA (the leg CPQ-GIG
40 PPVRA : correct, 1 February is when RG starts their fights to MUC, CA takes over from there to PEK. BTW, RG recently upgraded their service to Milan from a 76
41 Hardiwv : PPVRA: Wasn't RG going to fly to China with its own metal? Tks,
42 Post contains links PPVRA : RG doesn't have enough metal to send off to Asia for a couple of days... A Varig definiu a data de seu vôo para Munique. Começa em 1° de fevereiro
43 Mozart : As an add-on to my earlier post, here's some info from Star Alliance downloadable timetable: Sao Paulo-Manaus is 4x week B777-200 as well As of Dec 4t
44 PPVRA : Correction: RG does still operates the 763 to MXP, M11 services will begin on 13 January. -------------------------------- To translate a bit from my
45 Hardiwv : Mozart: Thanks for the update on RG's domestic flights GRU-MAO with the 777. Regarding RG's 767, some corrections on your list: 1x day GIG-IGU 1x day
46 Post contains images PPVRA : Hardi, Currently CA flies out of MUC with a 763 at 19:00 and arrives in PEK at 12:00. However, I don't have information if there will be any changes i
47 Hardiwv : It seems that RG schedule to MUC will NOT allow for connections on LH and CA flights to PEK. RG flights to MUC are on Sundays, Thursdays, Tuesdays and
48 Mozart : Hardiwv, thanks for the update. I had gotten my info from the Star timeteble, for the week starting Dec. 4. But I know that source isn't always 100% c
49 Flymunich : Air China operate next summer timetable 5/7 with B777-200 from Peking to Munich.
50 JoFMO : Doesn't MUC-PEK become a little bit crowded with 3x RG, 3x LH and 5x CA?
51 Hardiwv : JoFMO: AC operates MUC-PEK 3 x week and RG will possibly operate the other 4 x week, it makes one daily flight, plus LH's 2 x week. CA will also reduc
52 Mozart : Hardiwv, So we could have RG 4 x week, CA 2 x week, and LH 2 x week. I know this is speculation that you express here, so please take my reply as "spe
53 PPVRA : Mozart, You are correct. But LH is also capitalizing in the GRU-MUC segment, which I'm sure RG is not too happy about it. But I understand where you a
54 JoFMO : RG should route it's flights to China trough another European gateway. I would recommend ZRH. Switzerland is one of the richest countries in Europe an
55 Hardiwv : Still, thanks for your very competent comments on Brazil Mozart: thanks. Of course, my post on the RG flights MUC-PEK were speculation. But the MUC-PE
56 Post contains images JoFMO : @Hardiwv: Your point regarding MUC as a favourable stopover point for RG to China is right. But only under your given condition, that they don't fly t
57 Hardiwv : JoFMO: Thanks for all your insights and valid suggestions for "armchair" routes for RG from Europe to Asia. Here are my points: Your point regarding M
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