Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
More Possible 7E7 Orders...  
User currently offlineBhill From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1009 posts, RR: 0
Posted (10 years 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 8278 times:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2002086753_qatar10.html

Cheers,

bhill


Carpe Pices
40 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (10 years 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 8040 times:

Not so long ago I suggested a little stretch might improve market appeal

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1787010

Luckely lots of members to quickly correct me ..


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 997 posts, RR: 51
Reply 2, posted (10 years 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 7888 times:

Not so long ago I suggested a little stretch might improve market appeal

Actually, Boeing's inital plans included a -8 variants slightly larger than what we currently see. ASAIK, the -9 was planned for 270, then shrunk to 255, but they might have gone back to the original figure.

I suspect that QR and EK are both pushing for the -9 to be as large as possible. 260 seats would be ideal IMO.


User currently offlineAither From South Korea, joined Oct 2004, 859 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (10 years 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 7846 times:

A stretch version of the 7E7 could mean the end of the 777 ?


Never trust the obvious
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 997 posts, RR: 51
Reply 4, posted (10 years 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 7755 times:

A stretch version of the 7E7 could mean the end of the 777 ?

"The end" is a gross exaggeration.... they will likely complement each other. No doubt some 772ER orders will go to the 7E7-9, but the -9 (even seating 260-270) would be unable to replace the 772ER entirely. Don't forget the 773ER and de-tanked 772LR.... no 7E7 could replace these aircraft.

Remember that carriers like AA, BA, and especially AF use the 772ER/773ER on premium routes but 744 on high capacity (but not necessarily yield) routes. These aircraft fly with as many first/biz seats as possible, so floor area is a necessity.


User currently offlineHlywdCatft From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 5321 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (10 years 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 7724 times:

I think this was discussed too about the 777.

Isn't the 7E7-9 more like the size of a 767-400? while the 8 was a 767-300 size? It wouldn't directly compete with the A333 or 772.

I think at this point, if Boeing wants to get 60 orders for the 7E7, they better start making the 9 version. I have a feeling the 9 will outsell the 8 anyway, at least until the American legacy carriers get enough money to buy some 8s.


User currently offlineCwapilot From United States of America, joined May 2000, 1166 posts, RR: 17
Reply 6, posted (10 years 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 7670 times:

When it comes to "possible" and "potential" and "rumored" orders and MOUs, Boeing is the undisputed king.



Southside Irish...our two teams are the White Sox and whoever plays the Cubs!
User currently offlineRadelow From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 426 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (10 years 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 7590 times:

I am taken aback by Boeing's arrogance on delivering the larger plane. They need to listen to what their customers WANT not what they want. I am a big Boeing supporter but arrogance never goes well with people. Especially when you say you'll hit 200 orders by years end and here we are with 1 1/2 months left and only ~50 orders + 50 maybes.

Mark


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 997 posts, RR: 51
Reply 8, posted (10 years 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 7493 times:

I am taken aback by Boeing's arrogance on delivering the larger plane. They need to listen to what their customers WANT not what they want

Nearly *all* the inital interest for the 7E7 was for the -3 and -8 variant. Looking at the orders that have been placed, Boeing has 30 7E7-3s and 22 7E7-8s totally 100% firm and another ~20+ at various stages of aquisition. Boeing does not (yet) have any -9 orders so they will wait to introduce this variant... 60 orders could very well change this, but Boeing has finite resources and must do what the majority of customers want.

I am a big Boeing supporter but arrogance never goes well with people.

Oh get a life the aircraft hasn't been fully defined and EOS is a minimum of 4 years away.... the time table is still very much flexible. Boeing will introduce the aircraft in the order that customers demand. And if you havn't noticed, rumors are Boeing might move -9 EOS up 18 months if this order is for real.

Especially when you say you'll hit 200 orders by years end and here we are with 1 1/2 months left and only ~50 orders + 50 maybes.

Slow down turbo... let's analyize Boeing's claim that they could have 200 orders. From the firm orders placed, and the publically announced interest in the 7E7, we can assume the following-

ANA 30 7E7-3 (firm)
ANA 20 7E7-8 (frim)
Air NZ 2 7E7-8 (firm)
First choice 8 7E7-8 (pending)
Blue Panorama 2 7E7-8 (pending)
Primaris 20 7E7-8 (pending)
Vietnam Airlines 4 7E7-8 (pending)

China Group 70 7E7-8 (looking)*
Qatar Airways 60 7E7-9 (looking)
Singapore 30 7E7-3 (looked-- but deferred)*

82 7E7 orders, and with the possibility of 3 major orders in Summer-04, Boeing wasn't being that irrational in claiming they could have 200 orders by years end.

--

***SQ was looking to order 30 regional widebodies, which would have been a slam-dunk had SQ not deferred their decision. Southeast Asia is being swarmed by LCC narrowbodies and they had to wait and see. China is waiting for god knows what.... but if they place an order, it will likely be huge.


User currently offlineThrust From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 2690 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (10 years 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 7367 times:

60 orders for the 7E7 will be use---still any anticipation for when the U.S. carriers will decide to pitch in?


Fly one thing; Fly it well
User currently offlineDc10guy From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 2685 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (10 years 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7259 times:

SAD, SAD, SAD, Boeing don't have much going do they. Airbus has won.


Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 997 posts, RR: 51
Reply 11, posted (10 years 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7215 times:

SAD, SAD, SAD, Boeing don't have much going do they. Airbus has won.

Huh????

Boeing has one of the most impressive widebody portfolio's in the world. The 773ER has beaten all expectations, the 772LR is a few months from roll-out, and the 7E7 is, by all indications, going very smoothly. Airbus is poised to get royally screwed from the 200-400 seat market...

What is Boeing doing wrong? Missing out on those super-profitable (sarcasim) NB orders? The A320 might be flooding the market, but 737NG resale values are way way higher than their A32X counter-parts....


User currently offlineDc10guy From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 2685 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (10 years 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7141 times:

Nice try DFW dude... I like Boeing planes too. But Airbus is building what airlines want to buy at a price airlines want to pay. Boeing isn't ...


Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
User currently offlineArcano From Chile, joined Mar 2004, 2409 posts, RR: 23
Reply 13, posted (10 years 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7135 times:

LAN is the 10th largest consumer of the 767.

I think that when they'll have to replace them, they would see the 7E7 as an alternative, although LAN/Airbus alliance are getting stronger and the 330/350 (if) will also be alternatives.

Regards )( Arcano



in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773 and 380
User currently offlinePhxinterrupted From United States of America, joined Apr 2002, 474 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (10 years 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7079 times:

"Not so long ago I suggested a little stretch might improve market appeal"

Keesje, you think your statement is a revelation? Nearly every aircraft family is eventually stretched. Boeing certainly knows this and is prepared to offer a stretch version with an adequate order(s).



Keepin' it real.
User currently offlineN1120a From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26709 posts, RR: 75
Reply 15, posted (10 years 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7016 times:

>Remember that carriers like AA, BA, and especially AF use the 772ER/773ER on premium routes but 744 on high capacity (but not necessarily yield) routes. These aircraft fly with as many first/biz seats as possible, so floor area is a necessity<

Um, AA does not fly the 744 or the 773, BA does not fly the 773 and their 744s go to major yield routes (2X a day to LAX, YYZ, JNB, etc.)
You are, however, dead on with AF. Also, considering their policy that seems to favor Boeing wideboddies and Airbus narrowboddies (yes, I know they have some A340s/A340s but they have leaned Boeing), and the fact that they could do a team order with KL and NW, the 7E7 could be in AF's future as well.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineBigB From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 612 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (10 years 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6892 times:

N1120a

read carefully, he stated "Remember that carriers like AA, BA, and especially AF use the 772ER/773ER"



ETSN Baber, USN
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 997 posts, RR: 51
Reply 17, posted (10 years 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6853 times:

Nice try DFW dude... I like Boeing planes too.

Great... allow me to recommend a plastic model kit  Insane

http://www.boeingstore.com/catalog/index.cfm?fuseaction=category&id=76


But Airbus is building what airlines want to buy at a price airlines want to pay. Boeing isn't ...

Airbus has never once met their target OEW for the A340-200, A340-300, A340-500, or A340-600. Airbus does not have a modern widebody capable of flying regional sectors. Airbus does not have a direct replacement for the 767-300ER.

Is Airbus serving the needs of the airlines who want an A310 replacement, or a 767 replacement, or want a product that will meet its performance goals the first time? No, smart one. Look at the major orders coming down the pipe....

QF wants a 747 replacement, and before the day is over a 773ER is on the tarmac in SYD. It's there for a "Connexion" demonstration but why would AF be asked to delay one of their 773ERs when other Connexion equipped aircraft are available for demo purposes? There were major ulterior motives for sending a 773ER to SYD, and you can bet Boeing will be all over that order.

Oh, and what can Airbus do if Boeing launches the 777-200LRF? The A345 is 56,000 lbs heavier than a 772LR, so if your suggesting that it would make a suitable freighter platform you must be joking. Then there are the 18-30 773ERs SQ is ordering before year's end. And EK could easily order a sizable number in the same timetable.

What Boeing is losing out on is low-yield narrow body orders. Oh darn, Boeing missed a chance to scrap a 1% profit on precious delivery slots. By not flooding the market, Boeing has kept the resale value of their aircraft very high, which customers and lessors appreciate. And why is Airbus being so aggresive for narrow body orders? To keep cash flow positive as Boeing takes major high-yielding widebody order away from them.

Boeing doesn't love losing ordes, but given selling 30 777-300ERs to SQ or 60 737-800s to Air Berlin, you go with the 777s.


User currently offlineUnited Airline From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 9191 posts, RR: 15
Reply 18, posted (10 years 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6805 times:

QF B 747 replacement will not happen anytime soon. They still upgrading them. And they are very new.

User currently offlineGreaser From Bahamas, joined Jan 2004, 1101 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (10 years 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6786 times:

Whoa, DFW, you summed up my last 6 months of explaining to the Leahy slaves!  Smile

DC10guy, you must understand that should Airbus launch the A350, all they are doing is damage control. Yes, they can maintain their longtimers like VS, but its a 167-1 chance they'll get a new customer from a rushed product deririved from the A330.
Now, as said in the other posts, should airbus launch the A350, i always said why not Boeing launch the 747X???/737ERs Boeing has the resources and capital, all it needs to do is to hire some new staff (I know it's not that simple). This could leave airbus in a fix and they will not be able to launch a 3rd program, unless they want to become a Boeing/MDD/Airbus....hehehe



Now you're really flying
User currently offlineDc10guy From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 2685 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (10 years 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6729 times:

Sounds like some great excuses DFW dude. I realize that 200 airplane orders in the last week for Airbus is nothing compared to Qatar airlines thinking about buying the non existing "7E7" but hey,,, I'm sure Boeing can con some one into buying the 7E7.... But it won't be any airline in the US anytime soon. Boeing needs to learn how to compete.


Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 997 posts, RR: 51
Reply 21, posted (10 years 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6683 times:

QF B 747 replacement will not happen anytime soon. They still upgrading them. And they are very new.

According to QF, they are closely studying the 773ER/A346 to replace portions of the 747 fleet-

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,11186671%255E2702,00.html

All but a handful of QF's current 744s were delivered before 1992, and the 743s are a rather tiny subfleet of 1984-1987 builds. Excluding the small subfleet of 744ERs, QF's are rather mature. High gas prices and the potential for the 773ER to be more profitable on many sectors could accelerate their retirement.

The 773ER can do nearly everything QF asks their 747s to do, burns less fuel, carries more cargo, requires lower landing fees, less maintenance, and has fewer seats to fill. Yeah QF can fill a 744, but if 30 people are flying on FF-Miles, axing the seats is not a loss in profit. Moving to the 777 might be a very smart move for QF


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 997 posts, RR: 51
Reply 22, posted (10 years 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6595 times:

Boeing needs to learn how to compete.

And Airbus needs to learn yield manegment. BCA has posted a consistent profit for the past four years, Airbus posted two losses.

Airbus super-agressive dealing can be atributed to several factors-
1. They want to pressure Boeing to replace the 737NG first, hence allowing Airbus to be 2nd to the 120-180 seat replacement market and grabbing a technical edge. Highly unlikey that this is the case as Boeing won't commit to a 737NG replacement for many many years anyway.

2. Try to take out one of Boeing's cash-crops in a time when they have invested heavily in R/D. Possible.... but Boeing's risk-sharing partners have largely negated and financial risk to Boeing.

3. Intentionally flood market with over-capacity via LCC. LCCs harm the customers that typically would be ordering the 7E7 right now. Airbus can't stop American Airlines from ordering the 7E7, but they can make sure B6 has enough aircraft to keep them from making a profit. Also, look at SQ. They stated they had to defer a decision on a regional widebody (namely 7E7-3) because of LCC growth. The S.E. Asian LCC market has been fueled almost entirely by A320 sales. Hmmmm......

4. Maintain a cash flow as Boeing takes high-yielding orders away. Boeing is now capatilizing like hell off the 777, and Airbus is having a difficult time competing. See above. This could be plausable IMO...

---

All in all, I see Airbus agressiveness as a short-term analomoly to meet near-term goals. It is not a sign of the next 10 years, or even 2. Boeing 737NG sales were screwing the A320 by an equal margin in 1999-2002... things change... but you need a reality check for sure.


User currently offlineHlywdCatft From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 5321 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (10 years 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6568 times:

Hell I could see Air France ordering some 7E7s...

What widebody haven't they flown at one time or another?


User currently offlineDc10guy From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 2685 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (10 years 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6463 times:

DFW dude, Your excuses for Boeing sound desperate. Airbus doesn't make money on their A320's but the 737's are Boeings cash cow ??? Boeing makes great airplanes just like Airbus does. The problem is Boeing has never had to compete aggressively ... That's a lesson they need to learn.


Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
25 Trex8 : IIRC AF has never had DC10/MD11 or L1011s
26 Post contains links and images BEG2IAH : What about View Large View MediumPhoto © Mark Durbin BEG2IAH
27 Blsbls99 : Yeah, the AF DC-10s were from the UTA merger, right?
28 BEG2IAH : Right, they were from UTA. BEG2IAH
29 Post contains links and images Aerosol : What about: View Large View MediumPhoto © JetPix
30 Bobnwa : Looks like Trex8 could have done a little more research. All we need is a picture of a AF MD-11. I don't think we will see that though.
31 Post contains images Aither : Sound like DFWrevolution is Airbus angry I can’t say about all the statements because i just don’t know and i admit it. However, saying Airbus has
32 Dayflyer : Greaser, Now, as said in the other posts, should airbus launch the A350, i always said why not Boeing launch the 747X???/737ERs Boeing has the resourc
33 Aither : ... and we all know Boeing has no government support, do we ?
34 KateAA : I thought in an indirect manor they did? Something about tax? I am not sure, so don't take my word for it. Kate.
35 Whitehatter : DFW What Boeing is losing out on is low-yield narrow body orders. Oh darn, Boeing missed a chance to scrap a 1% profit on precious delivery slots. By
36 PANAM_DC10 : Back on Topic Austrian Airlines has announced that they are in "Very Preliminary talks" with both Boeing and Airbus for the 7E7 or A350. No order expe
37 Kaitak : There is a clear market for a type that will replace both the 763 and A330-200 on long thin routes; personally, I think the 7E7 is the ideal replaceme
38 Dalecary : Actually Kaitak, NZ will be operating a 3-class long haul fleet in the future. F- will be dumped and the 3 classes will be J,Y+ and Y. The 744s and 77
39 Scorpio : And Airbus needs to learn yield manegment. BCA has posted a consistent profit for the past four years, Airbus posted two losses. It did? Care to show
40 N79969 : More uneducated yackety-yack from someone who has no idea what he is talking about. Whitehatter, You must be speaking about yourself. Despite all of
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
More 7E7 Orders At Farnborough? posted Sun Jun 20 2004 08:02:45 by NW7E7
More Middle East Orders Brewing posted Wed Dec 6 2006 14:41:52 by Flying-Tiger
Possible 787s Orders At Farnborough? posted Tue Jul 11 2006 15:42:02 by LY777
Possible A380 Orders In 2006 posted Sat May 13 2006 10:57:51 by WINGS
Any More Interest (Future Orders) For The A346? posted Thu Nov 17 2005 20:32:48 by DIA
BA And Possible 7E7 Order posted Thu Jan 20 2005 18:26:30 by Phil747
Any Potential 7E7 Orders From Latin America. posted Fri Jan 7 2005 18:45:05 by Juventus
Boeing Still Aims For 200 7E7 Orders By Year-end posted Fri Dec 17 2004 07:00:43 by Jacobin777
Boeing: On Track For 200 7E7 Orders By End Of Year posted Mon Nov 22 2004 19:40:29 by MidnightMike
Possible 7E7 Order Announcement posted Wed Nov 17 2004 19:55:40 by Hamlet69