Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
AC Orders 15 Embraer 175 Aircraft  
User currently offlineChrisA330 From Canada, joined Oct 1999, 636 posts, RR: 0
Posted (10 years 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 6085 times:

15 EMB175 with delivery beginning July 2005. Configuration of 9 J and 64 Y class seats.

http://micro.newswire.ca/release.cgi?rkey=1211122583&view=13213-0&Start=0/

37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTennisace From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 219 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (10 years 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 5871 times:

Okay, is this a totallly new order or were 175's part of the original big order? This doesn't make much sense 'cuz I thought they have ordered some CRJ705's as well which sit about 75 passengers or so with dual class. Unless all the CRJ's are going to JAZZ, and all the ERJ's are for Mainline. Still makes you go hmmmmmmmm...............


User currently offlineSlawko From Canada, joined May 1999, 3799 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (10 years 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 5864 times:

The 705's are going to Jazz.. the Jungle-jets are for the mainline...and this is a new order...


"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16335 posts, RR: 56
Reply 3, posted (10 years 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 5836 times:

705's and 175's? This makes no sense.

Milton's fleet planning is a joke.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlinePacificWestern From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (10 years 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 5809 times:

Was that a typo Yyz717? Did you perhaps mean "Milton is a joke"?

User currently offlineSlawko From Canada, joined May 1999, 3799 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (10 years 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 5795 times:

I'll a little confused at you're comments... the 705's are going to Jazz they are not ever going to be part of the mainline operation so what's the problem?? Jazz isn't air canada, their is no economical reason to operate the same fleet at Jazz and Mainline, if their were then Jazz would be flying a318's. Infact it makes more sense to do what AC is doing, they are sending all of the bombardier aircraft to Jazz, and keeping the two jungle-jets in the mainline. Should the need/reason ever arise to sell off Jazz you wont be splitting up a fleet of CRJ's, you have two totally independant types of equipment. I'm sure you'll have an anti AC reply to that but I think it's a valid enough choice, the ERJ's will be configured differenlyt and be used for a different purpose then the CRJ's.


"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
User currently offlineSebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1666 posts, RR: 14
Reply 6, posted (10 years 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 5763 times:

While the feds pay lipservice to the notion of stopping to protect AC, as if they had done the refinancing instead of the shareholders, the fact is they could make AC's life miserable if it hadn't ordered some Bombardier aircraft. If you think otherwise, you're a fool.

The feds are out there prioritizing the international bilateral negotiations that would give AC the rights it needs to launch new international routes. I may be naive, but I am not at all certain another president of AC could have resisted the pressure from Ottawa to buy only from Bombardier, when in fact AC probably wanted to go all Embraer. Mind you, the Teplitsky mediation/arbitration would have ensured that even had AC ordered only from EMB or only from BBD, that the order would have been split between mainline and Jazz. In the end, what really matters is the price AC is paying in both cases, the terms of labor agreements applicable to both aircraft types, and the routes AC assigns each aircraft.

That's far more important in the long run than whether AC ordered from one or two manufacturers.





User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16335 posts, RR: 56
Reply 7, posted (10 years 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 5689 times:

Jazz isn't air canada, their is no economical reason to operate the same fleet at Jazz and Mainline,

Yes, there is. Mx and operational commonality would ensue. An order for 705's and 175's from AC group airlines operating over the same networks is simply.....ludicrous.

the fact is they could make AC's life miserable if it hadn't ordered some Bombardier aircraft.

The Cdn govt recently agreed to back the loan to fund the AC CRJ purchase. So once again Cdn tax payers are supporting AC.

The feds are out there prioritizing the international bilateral negotiations that would give AC the rights it needs to launch new international routes.

The feds should be working to improve bilaterals for ALL cdn airlines, not just AC.








Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlinePlanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6340 posts, RR: 34
Reply 8, posted (10 years 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 5611 times:

"Yes, there is. Mx and operational commonality would ensue. An order for 705's and 175's from AC group airlines operating over the same networks is simply.....ludicrous."

Yyz717, what is even funnier it that the CRJ705s has virtually no Mx commonality with the CRJ200s yet the CRJ705 shares the CF34-8 with the E175.  Laugh out loud

BTW, in case you haven't read it yet, Moody's downgraded BBD Inc. and BBD Capital debt rating 2 notches to junk status with a "negative outlook." The stock hit $2.50.



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineSlawko From Canada, joined May 1999, 3799 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (10 years 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5525 times:

"Yes, there is. Mx and operational commonality would ensue. An order for 705's and 175's from AC group airlines operating over the same networks is simply.....ludicrous."

Jazz and ACA MX are two different organization's, Not quite sure what you mean about Operationally, but crews working on the aircraft work for two different companies and do not cross over, only in the major hubs would you have an ACA ramp, or Ground Passenger Agent working a jazz flight and even then there is minimal training for those employees, the aircraft are dispatched from two different operations centres in two different cities at two different companies owned by the same parent. This is common through the US where you have a number of airlines operating both types in their fleet. While they have the same number of seats (or close) both airplanes are assigned to two different types of operations.



"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16335 posts, RR: 56
Reply 10, posted (10 years 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5492 times:

Jazz and ACA MX are two different organization's,

But they could achieve efficiencies with a common fleet.

Operationally, but crews working on the aircraft work for two different companies and do not cross over, only in the major hubs would you have an ACA ramp, or Ground Passenger Agent working a jazz flight and even then there is minimal training for those employees, the aircraft are dispatched from two different operations centres in two different cities at two different companies owned by the same parent.

Yawn. They are BOTH AC companies! They could achieve efficiencies by work sharing! You are making escuses for continued inefficiecies.








Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineSlawko From Canada, joined May 1999, 3799 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (10 years 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5459 times:

Yes they could you are perfectly correct, but unfortunatly the reality is that the labour contracts, working agreements, and organizational structure is such that they CAN NOT! And so given that they are still two separate operations with different requirements, different employees, all owned by the same parent company. Operating a fleet of CRJ's in one operation and a Fleet of ERJ's in the other would cost them about the same as if they had all of one or all of the other. The pays scales would still be different, the MX would still be different employees would stillbe different and costs would still be different, even though they are all the same company!


"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
User currently offlineEnviroTO From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 829 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (10 years 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 5376 times:

BTW, in case you haven't read it yet, Moody's downgraded BBD Inc. and BBD Capital debt rating 2 notches to junk status with a "negative outlook." The stock hit $2.50.

Chapter 1: Putting the BRJ-X on ice.
Chapter 2: Issues with Amtrak equipment dragged in front of the public.
Chapter 3: Sell Recreational Division.
Chapter 4: Las Vegas monorail shutdown.
Chapter 5: Unwritten but I hope its a little more positive!


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16335 posts, RR: 56
Reply 13, posted (10 years 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 5364 times:

Yes they could you are perfectly correct, but unfortunatly the reality is that the labour contracts, working agreements, and organizational structure is such that they CAN NOT!

So change the organizational stucture and make it happen. Isn't that what Milton is paid to do?

Ordering 175s and 705s is idiocy of the highest order ito airline efficiency and fleet planning.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (10 years 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 5342 times:

I am sure Embraer offered AC a very attractive financial package on these planes, especially since their orderbook was seriously hurting after their original launch customer (and only customer to date) Jet Airways backed out of their deal due to financial difficulties.

Cheap planes can almost always offset a deficiency in operational efficiency. I'm surprised that a veteran of the industry like Yyz717 didn't notice this while the 21-year old student like Slawko did. Maybe Neil is getting forgetful and careless in his old age....



User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16335 posts, RR: 56
Reply 15, posted (10 years 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 5326 times:

Cheap planes can almost always offset a deficiency in operational efficiency.

You can't say that Sean. Depends heavily on the in-service time period vs the amortization costs. I'm surprised you would make such a blanket statement Sean.

I'm surprised that a veteran of the industry like Yyz717 didn't notice this while the 21-year old student like Slawko did. Maybe Neil is getting forgetful and careless in his old age....

Chuckle. Nice projection Sean.  Smile



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (10 years 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5187 times:

Seem like they cost 28 MUS$ each see http://www.embraer.com/english/content/imprensa/press_release.asp?press_release_id=889&ano=2004


User currently offlineAad665 From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 232 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (10 years 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5109 times:

Hi,

It is always wierd the way poeple outside BBD analyse that company. I am an ex-exec at BBD. I left this summer after years there. I know very well BBD Capital, BBD Transport (Train) and BBD HQ.

-------
From EnviroTO:
BTW, in case you haven't read it yet, Moody's downgraded BBD Inc. and BBD Capital debt rating 2 notches to junk status with a "negative outlook." The stock hit $2.50.

Chapter 1: Putting the BRJ-X on ice.
Chapter 2: Issues with Amtrak equipment dragged in front of the public.
Chapter 3: Sell Recreational Division.
Chapter 4: Las Vegas monorail shutdown.
Chapter 5: Unwritten but I hope its a little more positive!
------

1. The downdrage was well anticipated at BBD HQ. It is a no-surprise event. I don't say it is a good thing. Life will be easier with a triple AAA but it will not stop any project.

2. Chapter 1: It was a mistake and lack of vision. Agree with you. They beleive that CRJ-900 will sell like hot cake.
3. Chapter 2: This is non-event in BBD Transport life. North-Americain poeple focus on N-Am. news. At that time, we had huge trouble with Virgin train and others delivrance in UK. That was a big issue for BBD Transport. (it is now resolve). Still, N-A newspaper was only talking about Amtrak. It was peanuts compares to UK problems.
4. Chapter 3: We were on hedge of CF issue. It resolved a short term CF issue. It had no synergy between BRP and BBD.
5. Chapter 4: Same as point 2. NA operations for BBD Transport is only 15% of revenues. Revenues from Germany only is bigger than whole NA. Still, a non-event.

The biggest mistake was to put on ice the BRJ-X. BBD has no product to compete with Embraer on RJ. However, they have a very good portofolio of Business aircraft.

aad665


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 18, posted (10 years 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5090 times:

"However, they have a very good portofolio of Business aircraft. "

And so does EMBRAER, with its Legacy.

And what more? EMBRAER is also doing well in the defense market.

It seems that slowly EMBRAER is finally winning the battle against BBD, a battle which EMBRAER should have won long ago, were it not for Canandian public money.

Rgs,
Hardi

side note: anyone knows any news of the intention of BBD trains to construct a manufacturing plant in Brazil?


User currently offlinePlanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6340 posts, RR: 34
Reply 19, posted (10 years 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 4973 times:

"Ordering 175s and 705s is idiocy of the highest order to airline efficiency and fleet planning."

You are correct in a logical and a "sane" world... which is not the case with AC and the political environment it operates in. By ordering the CRJ705, AC has effectively introduced a different aircraft type into its fleet.

As has already been pointed out, the CRJ705 has no LRU & virtually no Mx commonality with the CRJ200, and requires a different simulator for pilot training. On the other hand, the E175 has 89% LRU commonality with the E190, and 100% cockpit and flying qualities commonality.

And from a fleet planning perspective, with a "rump order" of CRJ705s, AC has lost out on the opportunity to provide a seamless and superior pax experience from mainline to Jazz.

"I am sure Embraer offered AC a very attractive financial package on these planes..."

AC would have had a even better package if they had originally ordered the E175s instead of the the CRJ705s.



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineSebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1666 posts, RR: 14
Reply 20, posted (10 years 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 4796 times:

AC would have had a even better package if they had originally ordered the E175s instead of the the CRJ705s.

How do you know. A year later, Embraer is still looking for a launch customer for the 175. It was the only model without a confirmed order. AC could have picked up 170s, perhaps in the aftermarket, as some American carriers seek to reschedule orders. The fact AC took the 175 instead of 170s, which would have been perfectly adequate for most missions, suggests that Air Canada played off Embraer against Embraer.




User currently offlineTupolevTu154 From Germany, joined Aug 2004, 2185 posts, RR: 28
Reply 21, posted (10 years 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4708 times:

Im really confused, I thought they were near bankrupt, now they are buying tons of new aircraft? Then a new paint scheme? They delayed their A345 deliveries aswell, can someone please explain for me?


Atheists - Winning since 33 A.D.
User currently offlineSebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1666 posts, RR: 14
Reply 22, posted (10 years 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4685 times:

Air Canada has emerged from bankruptcy restructuring with $1.1 billion in new equity and financing for their new regional jets from General Electric. Air Canada, after making an operating profit of about US$200 million in the most recent quarter, now has cash of about $1.9 million on hand, plus the GE financing.

The regional jet purchases were always part of the restructuring/new business plan.

The deferral of 345s occured at the outset of the bankruptcy process in April 2003. Later, when the airline was much further along in implementing its new plan - after it had negotiated various concessions - it revisited the issue of the two 345s, which Airbus had not remarketed. It isn't clear if those two planes were being held for AC, or whether there was no market at the time for them.


User currently offlineEuroLeb From Canada, joined Apr 2004, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (10 years 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4611 times:

Hold on you guys. Fleet commonality? I'm not so sure that's all it takes to base a decision on introducing a new aircraft type into an airline's fleet. Plus, as was pointed out earlier, the CRJ-705's will go to Air Canada's JAZZ subsidiary, which in essence, is a separate entity from Air Canada. I also heard that Air Canada will gradually start phasing out the turboprop fleet currently operating under the JAZZ brand. And what about the CRJ-200? some people suggested here that it's quite different from its younger sister (CRJ-700). I'm not an airline expert, but I doubt it if there were no significant benefit sharing beween these 2 aircraft types.

Who knows what Mr. Milton's the overall startegy is? Some people here have been shouting insulting terms such as "idiocy" and so on, thinking that they know more about the airline industry than Mr. Milton himself. We all know very well that, due to competitive reasons, Air Canada can only reveal minimal information concerning its long term startegy and underlying "deals" behind these new aircraft orders.



[Edited 2004-11-13 18:03:42]


Calgary is my home...
User currently offlineSebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1666 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (10 years 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4512 times:

It's also good to remember that the separate fleet type consideration is blunted somewhat by the fact Bombardier's assembly plant is right next door to Air Canada's maintenance base on Cote de Liesse Road in Montreal, and that Canadair has its training centre - with several simulators - within walking distance. When AC needs parts or training for the 705, it's all next door. It doesn't have to stock a large inventory of rotables. That's why the CRJs are maintained by AC in Montreal - even though the next largest plane handled by Montreal heavy maintenance is the A330. (A319/320/321 go to Winnipeg, and 767s, I believe, to Vancouver). Furthermore, the 705 uses CF34-8C5 engines, while the EMB uses the virtually identical CF34-8E. There is near total parts commonality between the two models. That would also apply to some other systems throughout the EMB and CRJ705 aircraft.







25 Post contains images Planemaker : And what about the CRJ-200? some people suggested here that it's quite different from its younger sister (CRJ-700). I'm not an airline expert, but I d
26 Post contains images AC7E7 : The Cdn govt recently agreed to back the loan to fund the AC CRJ purchase. So once again Cdn tax payers are supporting AC. The Canadian government is
27 Sebring : "...and that Canadair has its training centre - with several simulators - within walking distance" AC will be getting their own E190 simulator anyway.
28 Post contains images Planemaker : What is true is that it doesn't have to engage in that [simulator] overhead for the CRJ-705, irrespective of what it does for the 175-195. For the sma
29 Accargo : Planemaker, one thing you don't seem to understand is that the BBD products are going to Jazz and the Embraer products are going to Mainline. Part of
30 Post contains images Planemaker : "Part of the business plan is that Jazz is a SEPARATE company from AC." Of course, that is why Robert Milton cuts the Jazz 70-seat aircraft order in h
31 AC7E7 : You're right... Jazz will get all the sim time they want from BBD... for free and for the life of the aircraft. When Jazz calls, BBD is just going to
32 Post contains images Planemaker : AC7E7, obviously you don't understand sarcasm, hence your vacuous statements.
33 Post contains images AC7E7 : Though I liked your comment about overdosing on the Celine ad. -Brandon
34 Accargo : Gee, I just can't wait to see AC mainline flying ERJ-145s, and Jazz flying the C-Series! Good comment, too bad it shows your lack of knowledge about
35 AC7E7 : AC bashing seems to be a national sport in Canada and especially here at airliners.net. Even more so, I've had enough of the Milton bashing. It would
36 Post contains images Planemaker : Gee, I just can't wait to see AC mainline flying ERJ-145s, and Jazz flying the C-Series! "Good comment, too bad it shows your lack of knowledge about
37 Lymanm : I think too much focus has been given to the term "capacity" in this debate. The 705 & the 175, while sharing almost indentifcal capacity, have vastly
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Saudi Arabian Airlines Orders 15 Embraer 170s posted Mon Apr 25 2005 14:36:01 by EMBPR
Merpati Orders 15 Props posted Thu Jun 8 2006 13:52:09 by Flying-Tiger
Saudi Airlines To Receive 15 Embraer.. posted Fri Nov 11 2005 21:56:32 by MSYYZ
Paris: Kingfisher Orders 15 Airbus Widebodies posted Wed Jun 15 2005 14:11:28 by BestWestern
AC Orders 777 And 787 (Part 2) posted Mon Apr 25 2005 23:12:26 by RootsAir
AC Orders 777 (18/18) And 787 (18/42) posted Mon Apr 25 2005 12:25:38 by Boeing7E7
LOT To Get Embraer 175 posted Wed Mar 23 2005 15:05:41 by Danny
Macedonian Airlines With New Embraer E170 Aircraft posted Wed Feb 9 2005 23:43:32 by Travel
Air Canada Opts For 45 Embraer 190 Aircraft posted Wed Sep 29 2004 14:18:33 by BestWestern
AC Orders New RJs posted Mon Sep 27 2004 16:17:33 by Qb001