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De-icing: Edmonton Versus Calgary!  
User currently offlineDavid T From Canada, joined Nov 2001, 210 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 8 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4339 times:

Good evening,

Last Sunday, I flew on Air Canada from YEG to YWG with a connection in YYC. The weather was at the freezing mark in both cities and the ceiling was low with snow and fog.

In Edmonton, they have a dedicated de-icing area on the holding ramp which naturally is where the flying surfaces are de-iced.

On the other hand, In Calgary, we were de-iced at the gate without being pushed to a specific location and the surfaces were done right then and there. Push back commenced shortly thereafter. The only thing I noticed was the movement of the jetway away for the 320 and the jetway gate closed.

I do recall a similar de-icing procedure at ORD which left the aircraft at the gate during de-icing.

My question is this: Do airports employ a certain type of de-icing fluid where there is no need for drainage and collection procedures over others? Or perhaps those procedures are actually built into the gate itself at these airports and no dedicated location is required.

If any of my esteemed colleagues can shed some light on how Edmonton handles this vis-a-vis Calgary, I would greatly appreciate your replies.

Cheers!

8 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineCYEGsTankers From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 245 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (9 years 8 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4251 times:

No idea why its different in Edmonton vs Calgary. Glad they do de-ice off the bridge in Edmonton for 2 reasons.
A) If I was fueling a flight in Calgary I would probably get soaked and smell of burnt rhubarb.
B) I get better pics of the neat effects that de-icing fluid produces on a cold wing with no obstacles in the photo. However, the "yegwestjetter" may know why.
Richard


User currently offlineDavid T From Canada, joined Nov 2001, 210 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (9 years 8 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4223 times:

Ahhh Richard, just when I thought you would have known. After just finishing the movie "Hellboy", I was hoping for some lightening antidote. You did not disappoint!

Hopefully we can figure out the reason! There has to be some wing greasers out in airliners.net some where!


User currently offlineWJV04 From Canada, joined Jun 2001, 583 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (9 years 8 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4172 times:

Hehehe Wing Greaser... thats a good one

Well it looks as though you found one, as a de-icer for a certain ground handling company here in Calgary, I can tell you there are three procedures used here.

1. Air Canada, and im not sure if WestJet does this, but on some aircraft that have stayed the night, and only require a very light de-icing will be pre sprayed at the gate, before or during the boarding process. So that de-icing does not put the aircraft behind sked on a head start flight.

2. Air Canada propeller Aircraft (Mostly Jazz, and Central Mountain) orginating from the Regional A Wing are usually de-iced at a impromtu taxi through de-ice area set up just south of gate 19 on parking pads 99 through 93.

3. All Airlines, and companies including mine in Calgary will like you said, pushback from the gate about 10-15 feet, de-ice and continue the remainder of the pushback once de-icing is complete.

The procedures do not change for aircraft type or gate locations. With the only exeption of the propeller aircraft taxing out of the regional finger, they will spray at the impromtu pad, like i said above. The remainder will spray at the gate, once pushed several feet back.

Glycol recovery, is pretty much standard through out the entire airport. Inland has specialized glycol recovery vehicles. Im not sure what Inland does with the glycol once it is recovered. I am also not to sure how other airports deal with glycol. But in my opinion the glycol recovery trucks, as complicated as they look dont do that great of a job. If i were to spray a aircraft one day, and the truck recovers most of the run off glycol, there still will be a residue on the ramp for several weeks.



[Edited 2004-11-14 08:28:03]

User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29786 posts, RR: 58
Reply 4, posted (9 years 8 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4158 times:

The chemical used in type two is Proplyene Glycol, which is a food additive.




OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineGoose From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 1840 posts, RR: 15
Reply 5, posted (9 years 8 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4100 times:

A) If I was fueling a flight in Calgary I would probably get soaked and smell of burnt rhubarb.

They don't de-ice in Calgary while the fuellers are at the aircraft. As WJV04 said, they push the aircraft back a certain distance (supposed to be a plane-length or more, but I've only ever seen a few veterans doing that  Big grin ) and then de-ice.

1. Air Canada, and im not sure if WestJet does this, but on some aircraft that have stayed the night, and only require a very light de-icing will be pre sprayed at the gate, before or during the boarding process. So that de-icing does not put the aircraft behind sked on a head start flight.

From what I've seen, WestJet does to it to a certain extent, but they most often will use a hot air blower to knock off any light accumulated snow and avoid using any Type I fluid while the aircraft is on-gate.

The blower is also used in combination with their de-ice spray to lower the amount of glycol (Type I) they use on the aircraft and improve coverage when they do the full deicing. WestJet appears to apply Type IV in the same manner as everyone else.

In my experience, though, even doing a light deicing on-gate isn't really the best option, since the holdover time is usually shot (especially if the temp changes), and the glycol tends to accumulate in the ramp guys' work area and becomes a hazard. That last part is the main reason you're supposed to push back a plane-length or so (not 10-15 feet) off the gate before deicing.... which was common procedure for CP and AA when I took their training many moons ago.


2. Air Canada propeller Aircraft (Mostly Jazz, and Central Mountain) orginating from the Regional A Wing are usually de-iced at a impromtu taxi through de-ice area set up just south of gate 19 on parking pads 99 through 93.

I've seen Air Canada's deice crews do their aircraft including D8s, A320s and 737s get deiced in a "pad" area off the end of the A wing sometimes, especially when it gets busy or heavy snowfall.


Glycol recovery, is pretty much standard through out the entire airport. Inland has specialized glycol recovery vehicles. Im not sure what Inland does with the glycol once it is recovered. I am also not to sure how other airports deal with glycol. But in my opinion the glycol recovery trucks, as complicated as they look dont do that great of a job. If i were to spray a aircraft one day, and the truck recovers most of the run off glycol, there still will be a residue on the ramp for several weeks.

Hudson General should still have their vehicles around somewhere; they used to do the glycol recovery in YYC years ago.

And.... you can't get all the glycol off the ramp due to the consistancy of the stuff, the surface of the ramp itself, and the contaminants the glycol often picks up once it contacts the ramp - oil, hydraulic fluid, gasoline, jet fuel. They do get most of it - enough to keep the Environment Canada people happy.

The stuff is reprocessed and, according to what I was told a long time ago, turned into additives in stuff like radiator fluid for your car and Dr. Pepper.  Big grin



"Talk to me, Goose..."
User currently offlineYegWESTJETTER From Canada, joined Jun 2004, 37 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (9 years 8 months 21 hours ago) and read 3999 times:

In YEG there are 2 different types of Type I glyol (xl-54; which AC uses and proplyne; which ATS and i think GGNA uses). Both types require drainage and I cannot imagine a type which does not requrie drainage as the ratio of glycol to water has to be at least 54% more glycol to the water.

As for the special drainage system, I believe YEG has been awarded with one of the best drain management system in canadian airports. All aircraft are requried to either be pushed to the "deice pad" or taxi into one of the "hot deice pads" where aircraft get sprayed while their engines are on. Here is an article from the YEG website about their drainage sytem.

In 1997, a stormwater management plan was needed to address quantity issues related to increases in development at Edmonton International Airport and quality issues dealing with the requirements to mitigate aircraft de-icing chemical contamination in the stormwater. In 1998, the construction of the Subsurface Wetlands Treatment Facility was contracted to UMA Engineering Ltd. based in Edmonton. The completed project was commissioned in 2001.

Since not all of the aircraft de-icing fluid (glycol) used at Edmonton International Airport is recovered, some of it is present in the airport’s stormwater and is captured through the Stormwater Management Program. The new system integrates the stormwater collection system serving the apron area by channeling the fluids into detention ponds. Stormwater containing glycol is passed through this wetland system treatment facility prior to being discharged in Whitemud Creek, ensuring regulatory compliance with Alberta Environment.

The six million dollar project included storm sewer installations underneath the airport taxiway and runway, extensive channel excavation, a 300,000 cubic metre detention facility and a subsurface wetland treatment system. The wetland treatment process improves water quality through a variety of physical and chemical processes, and will minimize the impact of glycol in stormwater discharges at Edmonton International Airport.

To say the least, I am quite happy that we up here in YEG do what we do. I was down in YYC last winter and did not enjoy the glycol slush in the gate area. It also reduces hold over time in bad weather conditions as the aircraft has to continue push back and start engines.


User currently offlineWJV04 From Canada, joined Jun 2001, 583 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (9 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3886 times:

Goose...
Yeah i guess when when most of the guys at work, including me push for a de-ice its more then 10-15 feet, more like 50-100, I try to put the tail just short of the VSR.

Globe (Hudson to the old timers) no longer does glycol recovery in YYC.


User currently offlineGoose From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 1840 posts, RR: 15
Reply 8, posted (9 years 7 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3787 times:

Yeah i guess when when most of the guys at work, including me push for a de-ice its more then 10-15 feet, more like 50-100, I try to put the tail just short of the VSR.

*shrug* We were always told not to A) get it in the work area and B) try not to get it in the VSC. The latter was optional.... especially if it was something like a CP 767 you were deicing.


Globe (Hudson to the old timers) no longer does glycol recovery in YYC.

Yeah, I know - Inland does it now. I've noticed a lot of the same faces driving the trucks, though.... looks like Inland grabbed some old HGA guys.



"Talk to me, Goose..."
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