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Crew Seizure Enroute, Passenger Takes His Place  
User currently offlineCaptoveur From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 10592 times:

http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?storyID=123009162

Some Excerpts:

"About one and a half hours into the flight, the flight attendant made an announcement requesting a doctor or nurse," he said. Then she gathered up the airliner's medical equipment and an oxygen bottle and headed toward the cockpit.

The co-pilot was having a seizure."...

"The 737's pilot, now without a co-pilot, decided to divert to Colorado Springs Airport. The flight attendant told him about Colonel Neumann's experience as a test pilot.

"You'll do," the captain told the colonel. So Colonel Neumann moved from coach to better than first class. Despite being new to the 737 airframe, Colonel Neumann said he helped the pilot run checklists and land the plane."


I am surprised nobody jumped on this article yet. If someone already has just delete the topic.

I am also surprised that in the current era of mindless security this was allowed to happen. The helpful passenger will probably be put on a no fly list and heavily interrogated by the department of homeland security.

[Edited 2004-11-14 20:53:10]

49 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBCAInfoSys From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 10516 times:

Wow! Impressive to be sure. Sounds like something out of a low-budget Hollywood flick!

Anyway, big props to the USAF! Yeah baby!!! Big grin

Steve


User currently offlineAndz From South Africa, joined Feb 2004, 8455 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 10490 times:
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Isn't this every aspiring pilot's dream? I wonder what kind of seizure the co-pilot had, surely any underlying conditions should have been detected or disclosed at his regular medical?


After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
User currently offlineFinnWings From Finland, joined Oct 2003, 640 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 10422 times:

I really don't understand why the captain took someone who wasn't familiar with the B737 to the cockpit. The flight crew is trained to handle the aircraft in all circumstances including single pilot situations. Even Colonel Neumann was experienced pilot he wasn't type rated for the B737 and therefore couldn't offer any important help for the captain.

Regards,
FinnWings


User currently offlineFrequentFlyKid From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1206 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 10414 times:

Something isn't adding up here. An hour and a half into a IAD-LAX flight isn't going to be anywhere near Colorado Springs. It's over 1,400 miles between IAD and COS. Does anybody have any other information on this? Also, American operated 737-800's on this route, no other carrier operated 737's on this route.

User currently offlineUnited4EverDEN From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 10404 times:

What airline? I cannot find any other sources.

User currently offlineJetjeanes From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1431 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 10378 times:

Im sure the colonel being a pilot himself was of some use. if the captn had flipped out with a seizure you can bet the old military man would have found a way to have gotten her down


i can see for 80 miles
User currently offlineCaptoveur From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 10375 times:

Considering the source I doubt it is BS, but they could possibly be wrong on the type of airplane.


Also, if you notice the pilot wanted the second person to help him with the checklists (and maybe the radios). Why not make your life a little easier if you are flying?


User currently offlineMatt D From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9502 posts, RR: 47
Reply 8, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 10341 times:

Yeah I agree this is every wannabe pilots (and flight sim junkies) wet dream.

That being said, in a pinch, who are you going to take if you need some assistance?

1. Someone who has flight experiance, even if not on the type being flown?

2. Someone who has NO flight experiance, or no one at all?


User currently offlineTheGreatChecko From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1130 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 10299 times:

In defense of the captain, I think he made the right decision.

I'm sure he's been trained on single pilot situations, but I bet it isn't something that is as emphasized as other emergencies, like engine outs or depressurizations.

As a pilot on an airliner, captain or first officer, if I'm in a single pilot situation and I have someone that is a not just a pilot, but a test pilot, and military on board, of course I'm going to bring him up to help! As a test pilot, he is very comfortable in new aircraft and being military its a lot safer than bringing random Joe up front. I've spoke to a few airline pilots who share this opinion.

This is a great example of CRM. As a crew your resources don't end at that door, you have FA's and passengers that can be of great help as well.

GreatChecko



"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
User currently offlineEnviroTO From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 828 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 10298 times:

I don't think it matters that the other pilot wasn't type certified and I would hope that the pilot checked that he was a colonel and pilot before letting him in the cockpit. An extra set of eyes is always useful in the cockpit. You don't need to be type certified to read the checklist. It's not as if the captain handed him the controls and told him to fly. I feel bad for the co-pilot though... I would imagine this could be a career ending health problem. I wish him the best of luck.

User currently offlineTravatl From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 2173 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 10055 times:

I'm curious. At the bottom of the article, which I think is probably rumor from days of yore at best, it states Courtesy of Air Force Space Command News Service, additionally, the article is written by a Master Seargent from the "21st Space Wing Public Affairs".

What is the Air Force Space Command?

Travis


User currently offlineUSAFHummer From United States of America, joined May 2000, 10685 posts, RR: 52
Reply 12, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 10002 times:

"What is the Air Force Space Command?"

They deal with satellites, ICBM's, etc...they are located at bases mainly in the western US...Vandenberg...FE Warren, Peterson, etc.

Greg



Chief A.net college football stadium self-pic guru
User currently offlineSATL382G From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 9990 times:

What is Air Force Space Command. As the name suggests it's the Air Force Command that runs USAF space assets. Space Command wrote the story because the aircraft landed at a Space Command airfield (dual use) and the co-pilot was attended to by a Space Command ambulance crew. That the pax who read the checklists was USAF only added some frosting. Note that he intends to log "2 or 3 tenths" of time on this type. That's about 15 minutes, just enough time to read the checklists to the Capt.

Totally believable story.


User currently offlineCaptoveur From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 9983 times:

"What is the Air Force Space Command?"

Google is a wonderful thing http://www.peterson.af.mil/hqafspc/

"the article, which I think is probably rumor from days of yore at best,"

Yeah, we can't trust wire services, especially the AFnews service, we know how they lie.  Yeah sure


User currently offlineTravatl From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 2173 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 9919 times:

Thanks for the info - I just didn't know what space command was. You've answered my question. I still think the story is untrue. This would have been HUGE news.

I mean we're talking about a commercial airliner making an emergency landing (news story);a commercial airliner with an incapacitated pilot (big news story); a commercial airliner making a landing somewhere OTHER than a commercial airport (a real big news story - remember the NWA flt in the midwest last year); and of course introduction to the flight deck of someone NOT on the flight crew to assist and aide in approach and landing (HUGE STORY).

I'm not staying this never happened. I'm saying it's more likely that it probably happened on a convair propliner 45 years ago.

I've emailed at friends at AA and UA, and they both say they've heard nothing of the sort - can anybody from ANY airline out there cooberate this? I've worked for airlines for 15 years, and in that time when a story a 10th of the magnitude of this one occurs, it spreads through the industry like wildfire. All I'm asking is for another source to verify it.

Travis


User currently offlineMav75 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 228 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 9639 times:

"This is a great example of CRM. As a crew your resources don't end at that door, you have FA's and passengers that can be of great help as well."


I agree with TheGreatChecko. CRM involves a use of ALL resources available to you, both on and off the aircraft. And if an active-duty AF Lt. Col. happened to be on board to lend his flight experience to the situation, the Captain was certainly justified in putting that to work for him. Nowhere in the article did it say the Lt. Col. did a perfect three point landing exactly 1000 feet down the threshold while whistling Dixie. All he did was run checkists with the Captain. Hell, I'm qualified to do that and I'm only a dispatcher!

And Travatl, COS is a commercial airport with scheduled airline service. It's not DEN, but it still counts.



User currently offlineBENNETT123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7694 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 9393 times:


Did you ever see a film called Airplane back in 1980.

If he could do it...


User currently offlineJeffDCA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 9174 times:

FinnWings,
I disagree with your comment "he wasn't type rated for the B737 and therefore couldn't offer any important help for the captain.". If he was a test pilot, he'd have a much better idea of what to do up front than a lot of people. Just reading out checklist items would have assisted the Captain a great deal, and you don't exactly need to be a rocket scientist to do that, as i'm sure you're aware!  Smile

Cheers,

Jeff


User currently offlineDLKAPA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 9163 times:

a commercial airliner making a landing somewhere OTHER than a commercial airport (a real big news story - remember the NWA flt in the midwest last year)

Mouse-over this airport code:

COS


User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 9099 times:

>>>I really don't understand why the captain took someone who wasn't familiar with the B737 to the cockpit. The flight crew is trained to handle the aircraft in all circumstances including single pilot situations. Even Colonel Neumann was experienced pilot he wasn't type rated for the B737 and therefore couldn't offer any important help for the captain.

The article said he had KC135 time, so you can't get much closer to the cockpit of a 737 than that....  Big grin

The 737 is not a single-pilot aircraft, so the addition of someone to help with the radios, running checklists, and spotting traffic was a very prudent move by the captain here. If you have someone onboard with those kind of credentials, why not make use of them?

Ditto on hoping that the F/O's medical deal isn't a career ender....


User currently offlineSATL382G From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 9042 times:

Folks,

COS is a dual use airfield meaning that it has both military and commercial aircraft operations.


User currently offlineFSPilot747 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 3599 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 8967 times:

Good to know he was having such a memoriable blast while the Co-Pilot was having a possibly life-threatening seizure. This story is definitely weird. How could the Captain have proof that this guy is who he said he was, and not some lunatic?


FSP


User currently offlineLnglive1011yyz From Canada, joined Oct 2003, 1608 posts, RR: 15
Reply 23, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 8934 times:

okay okay.. you can't tell me that this isn't the dream of all us non pilots? Of course, in your 'dream', you land the plane, and both pilots are rescued and saved after you land...

Of course, I don't mean that someone intentionally gets hurt in my 'dream' but, I'm sure we all dream that we are 'forced' to land an airliner  Big grin
Wow.

Cool story though!

1011yyz



Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
User currently offlineAAR90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3476 posts, RR: 46
Reply 24, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 8780 times:

Don't know the specific details about what may have/have not happened in the aircraft, but...
--------------------
-0149/09 N3CN IAD-LAX LNDD COS ACCT F/O XPRNCD SEIZURE. EMGY DCLRD. LNDD W/O INCDNT. F/O RMVD TO HOSP. FLT CNLD. PSGRS PROT ON UA.
--------------------
and...
--------------------
NS/149/9/IAD«
149/09 B8 N3CN FROM 1382/08 IN 2247/08 AS OF 14NOV04/2009
STA SKD LATEST GATE S/R
DEP IAD 0830/09 OUT 0836/09 D12
ARV COS 1017/09 IN 1023/09 TCAS OPN
BASE SEAT SEN NAME EMP SEQ RMKS LAN
LAX -CA **** {privacy deletions} **** ***
LAX -FO ***** {privacy deletions} **** *** SICK R
--------------------
I think the "sick" notation is a bit of an understatement.  Wink/being sarcastic The flight's time-line (as reported) is probably an hour or more off --1.5hrs would put the flight in the vacinity of IOW, not COS.



*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
25 Flairport : The helpful passenger will probably be put on a no fly list and heavily interrogated by the department of homeland security. Ummm...no! The man probab
26 SATL382G : Many airline pilots are prior military or serving in the reserve. As ex-military myself I can tell that I usually can tell when I'm speaking to someon
27 Post contains images 2H4 : Jeeeeeez.....given the threads this week, perhaps we should create a forum solely for questioning the actions (and PA announcements) of experienced ai
28 Post contains images AAR90 : ...solely for questioning the actions (and PA announcements) of experienced airline pilots. Welcome to my world. There are always hundreds of folks wh
29 Tungd : Just a note to readers and posters of this thread... Please don't read more into the article published by the USAF than the information that is actual
30 2H4 : That's exactly what I was getting at, AAR90. People really don't fully respect the experience that isn't visible in a logbook or on a certificate. The
31 FrequentFlyKid : I didn't mean to question the authenticity of the story, but the timeline didn't add up to me. It is apparently just a factual mistake.
32 Post contains images SA006 : It might not seem like much when compared to the stick time he has with the B-2, B-1 Lancer, F-16 Fighting Falcon, KC-135 Stratotanker, C-12 and C-130
33 Cannikin : Did you ever see a film called Airplane back in 1980. All we need is a squeaky little FA and Leslie Neilson coming forward to declare "I just want to
34 Alberchico : I have to say well done:radar:
35 Post contains images Pilotaydin : i want something like this to happen to me so that if they ask me what i wanted as a reward, i would say a job....would beat the hell out of trying to
36 Aa777jr : Was this an AA flight? AA777jr
37 Ltbewr : The captain did the absolutely right thing here. The co-pilot was unable to do their job. He was making an diversion landing, under siginficantly stre
38 N766UA : I wonder what kind of seizure the co-pilot had, surely any underlying conditions should have been detected or disclosed at his regular medical? Maybe
39 FinnWings : Please do not get me wrong, I didn't mean to critize the decision of the captain but I was just trying to understand the resons behind his decision. O
40 DIA : To answer two posters above, yes, it was an A^A flight.
41 N328KF : Travatl: Why do you think it's untrue? Can you possibly think of anyone *more* qualified to take command of an unfamiliar aircraft than a USAF test pi
42 JumboJim747 : Jetjeanes I agree with you that if anything did happen to the captain it would be a lot better having someone there and not have anyone at all. Plus a
43 Planespotting : anyone is better than no one. As long as you can get that seat filled with someone who does what he is told and nothing else then im sure they can be
44 2H4 : Finnwings - The captain was simply using all available resources in an attempt to prepare for any (further) unforeseen circumstances. Better to have t
45 N766UA : anyone is better than no one Especially considering that on any aircraft other than the 737 the USAF Colonel could fly circles around the AA Captain.
46 2H4 : the USAF Colonel could fly circles around the AA Captain Even if that were true, who's to say the 737 captain doesn't have USAF or flight test experi
47 PropilotJW : this did not really happen. It is fake
48 Post contains links Tungd : PropilotJW, What didn't really happen? The incident is reported on the FAA's website at http://www.faa.gov/avr/aai/evt20041110.htm, naming the airline
49 N766UA : Even if that were true, who's to say the 737 captain doesn't have USAF or flight test experience himself? If he had anywhere near the flight test expe
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