SegmentKing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (9 years 3 weeks ago) and read 5306 times:
Everyone keeps saying the business plan is flawed. I think they have the perfect concept, they have the planes, and the money (for now).
If I were Kerry Skeen, here's what I'd do:
1. Introduce I-Air to markets in which no LCCs or few exist. Lansing & Dayton pull-out should have been reworked to flight reductions, versus completely leaving. I'd add the following markets to DH:
-> Grand Rapids, Michigan (3x a day)
-> St. Louis, Missouri (5x a day)
-> Richmond, Virginia (4x a day)
-> Lexington, Kentucky (3x a day)
-> New Haven, Connecticut (6x a day)
-> Allentown, Pennsylvania (4x a day)
-> Roanoke, Virginia (5x a day)
-> Asheville, North Carolina (3x a day)
-> Wilmington, North Carolina (3x a day)
-> Green Bay, Wisconsin (2x a day)
-> Augusta, Georgia (2x a day)
-> Toronto, Ontario (4x a day)
-> Quebec City, Quebec (3x a day)
-> Ottawa, Ontario (4x a day)
-> Chattanooga, Tennessee (3x a day)
See, by offering easier connections to smaller cities, they may have a chance of pulling this off. The frequencies I'd run are after each city.. but man, offer connections in markets that connect PROP to PROP or PROP to JET....
2. Larger Regional Equipment. Upgrade to the EMB 170/190 or get their paws on some CRJ 700s. Use these planes to reduce frequency in a few markets to maintain adequate charter & maintenance spares. Could also open up some O/D potential out of New York.
3. Increase yields by cutting out fare buckets. Change the gap between fare classes to $20 versus $10.
4. New hub. Focus on cities that have been abandoned by previous airlines. Pittsburg & St. Louis come to mind. Although I think a Columbus hub would work if connecting the right cities. People need a reason to connect, otherwise they'll stick with the big guys and keep flying thru Detoilet.
Clipperaurora From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 96 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (9 years 3 weeks ago) and read 5192 times:
The only way to fix I-air is to cut your losses put the UAL paint job back on the airplanes and cut pay of employee's and bid for UAL flights and welcome profitability with welcome arms, it is way to late to open new stations, (training, hiring, etc. etc.)
Cubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 21779 posts, RR: 19 Reply 3, posted (9 years 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 5173 times:
I agree with Point 1 above. From what I can see, both anecdotally and on this board, CLT is really successful for DH. Fairly large markets which are underserved by LCCs are certainly where DH could make some money. Of the cities on the list above, I think DH could particularly stand to investigate YYZ and YOW, and I might add YUL and MSP to the list. Preclearance could be extremely kind to DH, though international flying is somewhat more difficult and costly logistically than domestic flying even without the need for FIS at IAD. That's not to say, however, that DH should focus exclusively on these routes. Despite being something of an employee shuttle (understandably), Chicago seems pretty successful for them even though WN flies to BWI and TZ to DCA (for now).
[Edited 2004-11-21 05:39:08]
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
FlyCMH From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 2267 posts, RR: 11 Reply 4, posted (9 years 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5106 times:
I truly like your suggestions, SegmentKing, however many of those proposals require lots of cash, something that Independence must conserve until profitability can be seen. Some new cities, especially ones with limited or no low-fare carrier service would be great, but for the time being the airline will continue to monitor its present markets and adjust schedules accordingly. Another hub, preferably west of IAD, is definitely needed. St. Louis, Pittsburgh, or Columbus would all work nicely, but it's an endevour that, like opening up new markets, can probably wait until the airline gets a firm grasp on what it has already established.
Cubsrule wrote: From what I can see, both anecdotally and on this board, CLT is really successful for DH.
This is very true. Charlotte, as well as Pittsburgh, have overpreformed incredibly since service was started to each city, and additional frequencies have been added to meet the demand. As I mentioned earlier, the airline (contrary to popular belief) is examining its markets and adjusting the schedule accordingly. PIT, CLT, LAN, and DAY are all examples of that.
Clipperaurora wrote: The only way to fix I-air is to cut your losses put the UAL paint job back on the airplanes and cut pay of employee's and bid for UAL flights and welcome profitability with welcome arms
So, who's going to pay to paint all those aircraft in UAL colors, retrofit all the aircraft back into UAL interiors, take the A Concourse and completely overhaul it back in the United motif, etc. United? Trying to make Independence Air into ACA would be shooting both carriers in the foot.
SegmentKing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 5, posted (9 years 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5071 times:
Oops, forgot to mention the iClub.
I'd tag that puppy into Carlson's famous Gold Rewards network / Gold Points. Turn those miles into free food, free hotel stays, free crap instead of free tickets. I mean, for crying out loud, their fares are so low you don't need to save up 25,000 miles to pay for a $600 ticket, as most legacy carrier FF miles turn into.... a free ticket on I-Air is all of what, $150 roundtrip?
Swadispatcher From United States of America, joined May 2004, 427 posts, RR: 10 Reply 7, posted (9 years 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4990 times:
It's never too late.. until the airplanes stop flying..
It is very sad how so many "armchair CEO's" on this board have already decided to liquidate Indy Air.. yet very few have thought about how it could be fixed..
SegmentKing.. welcome to my respected users list..
Maintain 2300 until Boiler, cleared for the VOR-A approach, report BATLE inbound..
WGW2707 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1197 posts, RR: 37 Reply 8, posted (9 years 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4975 times:
I think if Independence Air does file, Kerry Skeen should be the subject of a class-action suit by investors and employees. He basically poured the blue koolaid down everyone's throat, and now that the Independence Air business plan has been shown to be non-viable, he refuses to change it.
I think operating an independent regional carrier (not neccessarily a low fare carrier) is a viable concept that deserves closer examination, but Independence Air definitely went down the wrong avenue. The delays in taking delivery of the A319 etc also reveal a strong level of managerial incompetence at the operational level.
The really discouraging part of the Independence Air situation is that if it flops, no one is going to be willing to try the independent regional carrier concept again any time soon...
Qwerty From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 377 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (9 years 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4975 times:
1. Introduce I-Air to markets in which no LCCs or few exist. Lansing & Dayton
DAY was a dumb move, most Dayton people live close enought to CVG or CMH to get their fill of 1) numerous destinations (DL) or 2) LCC coverage (WN).
Central problem with IndyAir is Dulles hubbing. They should be going point to point more.
-> St. Louis, Missouri (5x a day)
-> Augusta, Georgia (2x a day)
-> Chattanooga, Tennessee (3x a day)
I don't know the NE, upper midwest, or canadian markets as well as I should, so I will hold comment on them. But have you been to either TN or GA city above? There is no way you are going to have a load >50 for these cities, much less conecting through Dulles.
2. Larger Regional Equipment. Upgrade to the EMB 170/190 or get their paws on some CRJ 700s
Embraer's order book is stacked. Non-starter. They already can't fill their extra CRJs.
4. New hub. Focus on cities that have been abandoned by previous airlines. Pittsburg & St. Louis come to mind. Although I think a Columbus hub would work if connecting the right cities.
CMH worked great for AWA and is too close to Dulles. PIT's also too close to Dulles. WN would eat their lunch in STL, unless Indy wanted to go after the very short legs like STL-BNA, STL-IND, WN doesn't route, or fly some of the close cities WN further doesn't do out of BNA.
Akjetblue From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 790 posts, RR: 6 Reply 11, posted (9 years 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4913 times:
What would you think of if they started some point to point flying?
Some of the flights out of MCO & TPA could continue onto places like CLE, DTW, DAY, PIT or IND?
Something that has not been brough up, is this:
Indy Air has a great product! - If they are running low on cash - let them team up with anyone who is willing to let them stay "Independant" but "code share" and offer a feeder service to other carriers who aren't doing so well and looking to gain more customers - Aka both US and UA - it would be a nice treat to be connecting from an old US 737 to a bright Indy interior. I think it would work out as a possitive for both ends.
Johnnybgoode From Germany, joined Jan 2001, 2187 posts, RR: 7 Reply 12, posted (9 years 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4864 times:
i don´t think the problem is their service or the network. friends of mine have used Independence and really enjoyed it.
the thing is, apparently Independence doesn´t cover their costs. that´s the risky part of operating all those CRJs which have low capacity and high operating costs. there´s not been any real LCC succesfully using aircraft that small. the one carrier that comes close, Britains flyBE, is now incoporating 737s (which seems to underscore the fact that small birds cannot be the backbone of an LCC) and until now, mainly used aircraft bigger and less expensive than the CRJs (Dash 8-400s).
If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
Zippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5131 posts, RR: 13 Reply 13, posted (9 years 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 4836 times:
Time for some sage Zippyjet humorous advice:
That "FUGLY" livery has got to go and fast! Maybe a little superstitous but, sometimes a thing as basic as the livery hence image and put an airline over the top or, plunging toward the financial toilet. Look at DL; it seems all their bad karma and misery developed when they painted their birds with the generic Wavy Gravy design and then rolling out a LCC division named of all things SONG.
While on my soapbox, isn't it amazing that NW DC-9 bashing and satire (I'm included in lording it over with the humor) became a popular hot topic in the aviation funnies once they rolled out their 70's throwback tinkertoy livery.
I know, I know this is over simplification and generalizations but, a Zippyjet reply/posting without controversy or especially ribald humor?
SunValley From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 14, posted (9 years 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4790 times:
I Air would do itsself well to get some West Coast Feed into their Dulles Hub, and start filling up some of those CRJ that are running up & down the Eastern Seaboard at 25-40% load factors. They should also look at expanding thier service at CLT, as they are pulling phenomenal loads out of there. It just goes to show that CLT needs the major presence of a LCC. I air would really become the local hero if they added a few more cities out of CLT to points West. (The USAAirways Dynasty would react, but allready, the talk on the street in CLT is how great I Air is)
MSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6347 posts, RR: 50 Reply 16, posted (9 years 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4750 times:
Ditch the CRJ's, replace them with mostly all 190's, forget about the 319's until the airline can attain profitability, reduce frequencies on most routes, cut underperforming stations altogether, keep most markets at 3-6 daily flights so that 190 service can be supported, etc. If they did 6 flights a day to ATL/JFK/RDU, for example, they can still offer service at peak travel times throughout the day and not worry about those "marginal" in between time frames....10:00am, 3:00pm, 8:00pm for example.
ERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6692 posts, RR: 18 Reply 17, posted (9 years 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4756 times:
I still think I-Air should concentrate on the routes they have now and try to connect the dots to some of those destinations. Many of the destinations they currently fly are missing from some of their current destinations. For example, they fly to SAV.. well, try SAV-CHM or SAV-BDL.. try BUF-BOS or BUF-RDU or BUF-JAX... or others which would work well.. ORF-PVD or ORF-JAX or ORF-SYR... there are LOADS of possibility... I think they would do well to see which destinations are the top destinations at each airport that is not served and then use the RJ to fill some of those voids.. Then they are getting totally unused routes in which they are getting "guaranteed" passengers.. at the prices they are offering, I'm sure they will find plenty of passengers to fill those RJ!!
I know RDU-BUF, RDU-MAN, RDU-JAX would be able to fill at least 2 daily and RDU-HSV would be able to fill at least 1 daily RJ....
Johnnybgoode From Germany, joined Jan 2001, 2187 posts, RR: 7 Reply 19, posted (9 years 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4705 times:
i second Avek00's thoughts.
there´s one reason why LCCs don´t work with GDS: it´s expensive.
airlines have to pay fees for using the GDS which in the end amount to a significant portion of overall distribution costs.
there´s no doubt that this could enhance the presence of I Air, but i will be interesting to see if it pays out.
If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
Fjnovak1 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 592 posts, RR: 2 Reply 20, posted (9 years 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4646 times:
How about basing a few of the CRJ's at DFW after Delta vacates-- let us remember that there are some unique destinations served by DLX out of DFW that are not served by Amer. Eagle...I know SAV is one, and VPS is another... there could be some possibilities there...
Kim777fan From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 510 posts, RR: 1 Reply 21, posted (9 years 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4618 times:
I still have to go back to the premise of the original post.
Time will tell if the businesws plan acn work with the A319's. But as it is right now, I just don't see how an all-RJ company can compete in this market. They just aren't attractive enough to lure customers and don't have the low enough CASM you can get with a uniform fleet of 737's or A320's.
Sorry to borrow from recent political news, but I'm beginning to believe Indy going Independent may have been the wrong move with the wrong concept at the wrong time.
Srbmod From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 17282 posts, RR: 51 Reply 22, posted (9 years 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4064 times:
They need to scale back out of markets where the competition is fierce (ATL for example. 4 airlines on this route means that someone, more than likely the newcomer, will come out the loser. The last airline to try ATL-IAD in competition with DL, UA, FL was Metrojet, and they got stomped. I happened to be on D this morning around the time of the 10:00 am ATL-IAD flight, and it looked to have nearly a full load sitting in the gate area, which is a good sign.). When you got your competitors cutting their fares to match (And in the case of ATL-IAD, FL and DL have even cut their fares to DCA and BWI as well.), and they offer better connection and FFPs than yours, you're bound to end up on the short end of the stick. They need to move into markets where the only competition is a feeder airline or is non-exsistant.
IAD-CHA makes sense, as no airline serves the route directly. You have to fly into ATL, CLT, ORD, CVG and connect to IAD from there. The only CHA-DC-area service is a once daily US Airways Express flight to DCA. IAD-AGS, same story, you have to fly to ATL or CLT to get to IAD.
A western hub would be a good idea. COS is sitting there waiting for an airline to move in. Throw a dozen CRJs and maybe base 2 or 3 Airbuses there (for some transcons to IAD, MCO, and maybe FLL). Setting up a small base @ DFW would be smart as well, bring in enough a/c to replace ASA's intra-Texas service that will be discontinued with the closure of the DFW hub.
ERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6692 posts, RR: 18 Reply 23, posted (9 years 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4034 times:
how about trying a midwest hub with no landing fees and free gates.. ie.. MidContinent airport aoutside St Louis.. free gates, free landing.. use it mainly for connecting traffic.. what more would they need?
SegmentKing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 24, posted (9 years 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3828 times:
Wow.. intelligence lives on a-net. Too bad I can't add more people to my Respected Users list, most of you would be on it.
In regards to the posts talking about how CRJ's don't make money, then you are suggesting that they go back to flying for a major. Which then requires ACA/IDE to rely on that major to wire them their accounts payables (on time, yah right!), and pay for a money loosing operation. United lost $80 million on its United Express contracts and is looking to minimize that loss. Delta is loosing like $140 million, and American is loosing $55 million on Eagle ops. That is proof that these lil jets don't really bring ya a profit, but help airlines loose LESS money than if they were doing it themselves... so why would I-Air partner with a major who will then milk as much as they can to prevent them from making money or be told by a major HOW MUCH (or little) money they can make. At least with I-Air being independent, they can give it their best show.
Back to the cities.
I listed those markets as you can't really get to any of the I-Air destinations on another airline without going thru a major hub that sucks. (Atlanta comes to mind... I dunno about you, the airport looks cool, but I hate ground times of 1/2 an hour just to cross a runway). Adding markets like Asheville, North Carolina and Augusta, Georgia is perfect... Deltaflot used to fly MD-80s and 737s into these markets, now serviced by CRJs or ATR-72s... massive drop in capacity... meaning DH/IDE can come in with new nonstop service to Washington and offer better connections in its nice A Concourse to the points in the northeast versus flying to Atlanta then hopping a 757 on up.
No one has really hit this one. I believe they should still offer their low fares, but no more $10 jumps in prices. $10 does didly squat for you.. make it at least a $15 or $20 jump between buckets.
Someone talked about CHS and SAV.
Perfect summer weekend traffic. I-Air should move some of the jets from the NE corridor to fly nonstops to SAV/CHS on the weekend. I believe American Eagle did this at one point, as well as Deltaflot.
I still stick by the fact they need something between the 50 seater and the A319... the EMB would be fantastic and I bet they could sweep in with some money and pick up 9 USAirways birds not delivered that are sitting down at Campos field (or wherever Embraer parked them).
25 CRPilot: Actually SegmentKing, the model has proven to work fine, as in the case of CO with ExpressJet. Is how you use the aircraft to complement your service
26 Hannigan: As a SAV Independence Air employee, I can vouch for perhaps a SAV-MCO (needs to be done bad), SAV-ORD (get those disserviced UA pax), SAV-NYC (get ask
27 ERJ170: Hannigan, I can't agree more.. I just don't think they need all those frequencies to Dulles. Most of the middle to large size airports already have a
28 Avek00: "In regards to the posts talking about how CRJ's don't make money, then you are suggesting that they go back to flying for a major. Which then require
29 Iowaman: -> Toronto, Ontario (4x a day) -> Quebec City, Quebec (3x a day) -> Ottawa, Ontario (4x a day) That would be a long CRJ flight, and they lots of dots
30 ATWZW170: Going back to UA isn't the answer for FlyI. They would have to give up so much! In order to even drop the A319 order they would have to file for bankr
31 ERJ170: I'll give you 2 excellent markets for DH to open from RDU... BUF and PBI.. seeing as that you can't get to Florida from NC on FlyI.. a NS to PBI would
32 Hannigan: ERJ170 - I hope they do start some more of that NS P2P. The frequency to IAD can definately come down some IMO. BTW - Indy just announced NS to PBI fr
33 PSU.DTW.SCE: Again Indy has 2 options: 1) Put forth their best effort at making this plan work. And they seem to be making the changes necessary to make this plan
34 ERJ170: Ohhh.. you did not call them a United 'ho! LOL.. that was funny..
35 ATWZW170: Being that it's just a five year contract I don't think that Indy should bid on the contract....too much money to spend for not enough time.
36 Avek00: "If Indy can get one foot in the door and stick around longer than US, they will be sitting on a gold mine once they kick the bucket, which is likely
37 Avek00: "Even if Indy were to get the contract, its only for 5 years" That gives Indy 4 more years than it can reasonably hope for at this point. Let's face f
38 Asteriskceo: Too many planes too fast. It was rushed. Hopefully future airlines will learn from I-Air's mistake.
39 Bohica: Dulles, VA, (November 22, 2004) – Low-fare airline Independence Air (Nasdaq: FLYi) announced it has received final approval from the Federal Aviatio
40 ATWZW170: This could be the help that Indy needed. More seats, spreading the cost around. Is Indy going to replace any of the RJ routes? NYC, BDL, ORD??
41 NUAir: IAD (Independence Air Delay as know by DC natives) Sucks! Any airline that is based out of that airport is going to fail. The problem is that it is no
42 LambertMan: how about trying a midwest hub with no landing fees and free gates.. ie.. MidContinent airport aoutside St Louis.. free gates, free landing.. use it m
43 ATWZW170: Mid-American Airport, I just don't see that happening. Indy needs to go where there isn't a lot of other carriers fighting over passengers. To go to t
44 ERJ170: But why jump into someone else's bedroom if you don't have too? Why try to take on AA and WN if it's not necessary? If they used Mid-America (MidConti
45 Whlinder: Independence Air has lots of problems. Their CASM is much higher than expected, and their RASM is less than expected. So how do you fix FlyI? Simple!
46 Whlinder: Whoops, the new IAD underground walkway goes to terminal B, and FlyI operates out of A, which is connected to B, but still a bit of a walk. Their Airb
47 ATWZW170: Are we going to see the A319 go into business markets that demand larger aircraft?
48 ScottB: Independence would lose even more money at CVG. Delta Connection's regional operations at CVG are even larger than DH's at IAD for a smaller populatio
49 OzarkD9S: Here's a thought: JetBlue...codeshare at IAD and combine the FFprograms...nah, would never work! Hell, why not throw F9 into the mix as well, they jus
50 SegmentKing: In regards to St. Louis, I feel this market is really underserved now that AA has crumbled TWA's once beautiful hub (on paper it was beautiful, anyway
51 SegmentKing: Don't forget Midway Part... um 3? JI did quite well mixing the CRJs with the 737 fleet... 9/11 unfortunately killed that airline, as did some bad mana
52 ERJ170: I-Air has a few innovations and a cheaper overhead than JI had at RDU. And JI left some profitable routes out of RDU which has not been picked up by a
53 Captoveur: "DAY was a dumb move, most Dayton people live close enought to CVG or CMH to get their fill of 1) numerous destinations (DL) or 2) LCC coverage (WN)."
54 ERJ170: Here's an example of a smart move.. NW.. instead of starting with 14 daily flights between RDU-IND.. they started with 2. If it does well, they may ad
55 Hannigan: Savannah and Charlie South (CHS) have a tremendous growth potential as these cities have had some pull-backs from the majors. I also believe at one po
56 NUAir: "Also for those who want to piss on IAD, the airport straddles the nation's wealthiest county (Fairfax) and the fastest growing county (Loudoun). " It
57 ATWZW170: I'm pretty sure it was AA who had the 727's into CHS and SAV from RDU for awhile. DH would do well to think about more point to point...and RDU is a p
58 Kcrwflyer: whilnder, i like what youre saying up there in reply 45. They really should try to spread out some p2p. our lf here is about 54% and growing each mont
59 Nwa747-400: "wait to take one of those gate transport vehicles from Star Wars and then walk 30 minutes down a corridor to get to your gate?" exaggeration much? "I
60 Whlinder: Not everyone has to take route 66 to get to IAD. There are actually businesses outside the Beltway. Shocking! Tysons Corner is a quick 15 minute drive
61 Akjetblue: Sure would be nice to see a CHO/RIC-MCO or CHO/RIC-TPA but i doubt that'll happen! Alright for Indy and the A319, i knew ya'l would come through!
62 SegmentKing: Independence Air could operate in and out of Key West, but would be slightly weight restricted on the flights... I believe they would have a 23% weigh
63 Captoveur: Independence Air could operate in and out of Key West, but would be slightly weight restricted on the flights... I believe they would have a 23% weigh
64 NUAir: ""I hate it when people exaggerate" - Donald Trump." I hate Donald Trump so I'll take that as a complement. "Interestingly travelers who work in downt
65 Flyibaby: NUAir, I'm sure 80% of the free world would agree with you about flying into DCA; however this airport is SLOT CONTROLLED. A perfect example of this w
66 ERJ170: ERJ, Do some more homework. JI only made money RDU-MSY from FEB-AUG. Afterwards they lost upwards of several hundred thousand dollars in that market.
67 Flyibaby: ERJ, Im talking about the time period in which JI operated the route, which was from 98-2001. After the revenues were in, year end, JI consistently lo
68 Lat41: From my area, PVD-ORF and PVD-GSO would work right off. Much business and gov't traffic from Southern New England to those points with no nonstops. Al
69 Captover: -NUAir, Hey! Guess what!!! I-66 doesn't go to Dulles!!!!! The Dulles Access Road does. The metro will be at dulles in 2009, Dulles already opened an u