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Air India B772 Range? SYD Flights.  
User currently offline6thfreedom From Bermuda, joined Sep 2004, 3322 posts, RR: 20
Posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4707 times:

Air India has filed to operate 3pw B772 BOm-SIN-SYD services.

Does anyone know the range of AI's B772?
According to Boeing, range is 5,200 nm.

Rather than competing with SQ, GF, QF, BA etc on SIN-SYD, wouldn't it make sense for AI top operate BOM-BLR-SYD, or BOM-MAA-SYD, which would be around the 4,800nm mark, thus allowing them to bypass SIN??



34 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineN1120a From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26376 posts, RR: 76
Reply 1, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4656 times:

The AI 772s are 777-222ER models, so they have a range over 7000 nm. I don't know why they would not do the flight non-stop, perhaps they want to get the 5th freedom PAX SIN-SYD-SIN, though that is quite a full market.


Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineJasepl From India, joined Jul 2004, 3582 posts, RR: 39
Reply 2, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4647 times:

Actually, going via SIN is a good option. BOM will finally have non-stop service to SIN on AI, which is desperately needed. None of their flights do BOM-SIN non-stop currently and many of them operate on belief-defying routes (BOM-DEL-SIN, BOM-MAA-KUL-SIN etc).

Since AI (and IC) already fly non-stop to SIN from DEL, MAA, BLR, HYD, they could use these flights to feed the SYD flight at SIN. Don't know for sure how that would work though - haven't seen schedules or anything.



User currently offline6thfreedom From Bermuda, joined Sep 2004, 3322 posts, RR: 20
Reply 3, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4627 times:

I understand the schedule is along these lines...

BOM 2215
SIN 0600+1
SIN 0715
SYD 1635

SYD 1800
SIN 0015
SIN 0130
BOM 0400


User currently offline6thfreedom From Bermuda, joined Sep 2004, 3322 posts, RR: 20
Reply 4, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4623 times:

If the flights ex-BOM are filled with BOM_SIN traffic, what's the point of extending the service to SYD??
If this happens, AI will end up filling the aircraft with low-yield holiday travellers ex-SIN in what is already a sector with heaps of capacity.

I would have thought A310 non-stop BOM-SIN would be appropriate, and non-stop services India-Australia.

By operating via MAA or BLR, AI has a competitive advantage over QF's BOM-SYD services, which require backtracking if connecting to/from DEL, Calcutta, MAA, BLR etc...



User currently offlineIndianguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4539 times:

This is based on the assumption that the 772's ARE coming on schedule.

Pretty big assumption to make at this stage!


User currently offlineTrolley Dolley From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4442 times:

QF is operating the BOM-SYD flights nonstop.

Could SIN be mini-hub so that pax can connect to BLR, MAA etc there, rather than having to back track in BOM?


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4434 times:

These 777-222ERs have a MTOW of "ONLY" 640,000lbs.... so their range at payload is considerably shorter than some of the more powerful operators' birds (DL's, CO's, BA's, etc).

User currently offline6thfreedom From Bermuda, joined Sep 2004, 3322 posts, RR: 20
Reply 8, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4406 times:

Trolley,

A SIN mini-hub would work only if AI worked in a regular schedule India-SIN vv, as opposed to the current milk runs that operate from every point in India, sometimes via KUL, and sometimes onto CGK.

Somehow I don't think this is what AI is planning to do.



User currently offlineMrNiji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 4211 times:

6thfreedom, first thx for your info!

Rather than competing with SQ, GF, QF, BA etc on SIN-SYD, wouldn't it make sense for AI top operate BOM-BLR-SYD, or BOM-MAA-SYD, which would be around the 4,800nm mark, thus allowing them to bypass SIN??


It makes sense to go via SIN. They can competitively fetch 5th freedom pax from SIN-SYD. Moreover, as said bay Jason, BOM-SIN would have a nonstop. They will hence serve three markets, with competitive prices (and nice equip):

BOM-SIN
SIN-SYD
BOM-SYD and vice versa

5th freedom rights are amongst the greatest rights for an airline. Let them first have enough a/c before they offer. Meanwhile, a presence with 'convenient' stops is doing well

Cheerio


User currently offlineAirish From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 259 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 4069 times:

If this does happen it will be excellent. 6thfreedom once again thanks.

I thought if the flights went via SIN they would use the A310s. So if for what ever reason the 777s did not come I would not put it past AI using the A310s instead.

If the schedule is along these lines then it may possible that the operation will be integrated with AI161,AI160 due to the flight timings.

Flight timings might allow for connection to AIs other flights from other Indian cites such as DEL and MAA at SIN.



Worlds Only Reputable Airline Air India! Some Of The Least: BA, Jet (9w), Kingfisher!
User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 4059 times:

So whats the status on these elusive 777s?

Still languishing in the desert with armadillos nesting by the undercarriage?

Tucked away in a paint shop in Hamburg?


User currently offlineKaran69 From India, joined Oct 2004, 2885 posts, RR: 18
Reply 12, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 4044 times:

This will provide good competition on the BOM-SIN route with the 777,

But as far as the second leg of the flight to SYD is concerned,no doubt it maybe succesful but if a person is living in Mumbai -would'nt he/she rather be better of saving 4-6 hrs by flying QF non-stop on BOM-SYD


User currently offline6thfreedom From Bermuda, joined Sep 2004, 3322 posts, RR: 20
Reply 13, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3894 times:

OK... here's the latest.

AI may well extend the service to triangulate with MEL, therefore BOM-SIN-SYD-MEL-SIN-BOM.

while this will add to expenses, I think it's a great move in capturing the MEL market. After all 40% of Indian expats live in Melbourne.

I think most people that understand the Australian market know the dislike of Melbourne pax needing a domestic to international transfer [with terminal change] at SYD. It adds around 4 hours to the overall journey, and is a pain in the ......



User currently offlineJasepl From India, joined Jul 2004, 3582 posts, RR: 39
Reply 14, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3812 times:

6thfreedom, the BOM-SIN flights might be half full with pax deplaning at SIN, but they can be filled up with pax coming in on AI or IC from DEL, MAA, BLR and HYD. Or even JAI. AI could also get a few SIN pax, because they probably will have lower fares than the other carriers.

Of course, this is all wonderful in theory, but it means AI will finally have to regularise their schedules and I don't think they're quite ready to face the implications of such an endeavour.

Above all though, we're going to have to wait for the 777s to show up and for AI to announce the flight and then actually start it. Could be a decades-long process!


User currently offlineChinaeastern From China, joined Apr 2004, 348 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3769 times:

6thfreedom:
not only MEL pax don't like domestic transfers but also triangle routes.
Can't see the route to be competitive enough,
on one hand, there is QF non stop service
on the other hand, SQ offer more frequencies and also more distinations with one stop


User currently offline6thfreedom From Bermuda, joined Sep 2004, 3322 posts, RR: 20
Reply 16, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3741 times:

Chinaeastern,

There is a big difference between needing a domestic to international connection in SYD, as opposed to having a 1 hour transit at the SYD international terminal [or MEL terminal for that matter].

There are quite a number of carriers that operate successful triangular services thru SYD and MEL...

AIR CHINA - PEK-PVG-MEL-SYD-PVG-PEK & PEK-AND OLD: Guangzhou - Baiyun (CAN / ZGGG) (closed), China">CAN-MEL-SYD-AND OLD: Guangzhou - Baiyun (CAN / ZGGG) (closed), China">CAN-PEK
AIR PARADISE - DPS-MEL-SYD-DPS AND COUNTER ROTATING
AIR MAURITIUS - MRU-SYD-MEL-MRU
CHINA EASTERN - PVG-MEL-SYD-PVG
CHINA SOUTHERN - AND OLD: Guangzhou - Baiyun (CAN / ZGGG) (closed), China">CAN-MEL-SYD-AND OLD: Guangzhou - Baiyun (CAN / ZGGG) (closed), China">CAN
PAL - MNL-MEL-SYD-MNL
QANTAS - MEL-SYD-PVG vv
THAI - BKK-SYD-MEL-[HKT] - BKK
UNITED - LAX-SYD-MEL vv

While i dislike going thru SYD at the best of times, if i have to, i'll do it on a same plane service...


User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4754 posts, RR: 43
Reply 17, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3713 times:

The operating cost will be very high for Air India to fly BOM-SIN-SYD-MEL-SIN-BOM compared to BOM-SIN-SYD-SIN-BOM which is more logical.

If you say that AI will want to target 5th freedom pax on SIN-SYD-SIN then why would a SYD originating pax want to fly AI to SIN from SYD via MEL when there SQ-QF-BA B 744 each dailies flying that route nonstop !!!

If u say that 40% of Indian Expats in Australia reside in MEL area then might as well let QF handle the BOM-SYD sector and codeshare with them and AI handle BOM-SIN-MEL route and make QF codeshare with them here.

Or if AI is bold enough, have a seperate BOM-SIN-SYD flight and a seperate BOM-SIN-MEL flight!!!  Big grin


User currently offlineKaran69 From India, joined Oct 2004, 2885 posts, RR: 18
Reply 18, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3647 times:

They are better off performing the BOM-SIN-MEL flight and then codesharing the other leg with QF on the SYD sector

User currently offlineMrNiji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3630 times:

If you say that AI will want to target 5th freedom pax on SIN-SYD-SIN then why would a SYD originating pax want to fly AI to SIN from SYD via MEL when there SQ-QF-BA B 744 each dailies flying that route nonstop !!!

PRICE!!! Perfect competition, he?  Big grin


They are better off performing the BOM-SIN-MEL flight and then codesharing the other leg with QF on the SYD sector

QF would only do that if they received more rights.. why should they do that otherwise??

Moreover, is it sure that the possible flights will be on 777 rather the 310? And why not PER? PER was served in the 90s by AI


Edit: Where is Sean's old post bringing some facts straight??? Deleted?

[Edited 2004-11-23 10:16:36]

User currently offlineAirish From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 259 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3508 times:

AI has flown to MEL in the past Bombay / Perth / Sydney / Melbourne / Perth / Bombay according to

http://www.airindia.com/page.asp?pageid=51

MEL came off line on April 1 1981

If AI wants to fly to MEL as well then they should do something similar to the one above so maybe

BOM-MEL-SYD-BOM or BOM-SYD-MEL-BOM or BOM-MEL-SYD-MEL-BOM or BOM-SYD-MEL-SYD-BOM





Worlds Only Reputable Airline Air India! Some Of The Least: BA, Jet (9w), Kingfisher!
User currently offlineSshank From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 306 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3490 times:

I'd like to suggest the following itinerary -
BOM-MAA-SIN-SYD-MEL-SIN-MAA-BOM

Now - that's a true AI style milk run!


User currently offlineJasepl From India, joined Jul 2004, 3582 posts, RR: 39
Reply 22, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3477 times:

LOL Sshank! Anything else just wouldn't feel like AI! Except perhaps BOM-DEL-SIN-SYD-MEL-SIN-MAA-BOM on Tuesdays and BOM-MAA-KUL-SIN-MEL-SYD-SIN-HYD-DEL-BOM on every other Friday.

User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3416 times:

I swear that I once did a 747 run on Air India in perhaps the late 70s that went:

London-Paris-Frankfurt-Kuwait-Delhi-Bom-MAA-Sin-Per-Syd. We had half a day in Bom because the Australian flight left at 1 pm and spent it at the Sun-n-Sand hotel. Of course back then I was a kid and it was all rather exciting, especially since AI's service was fabulous.


User currently offline6thfreedom From Bermuda, joined Sep 2004, 3322 posts, RR: 20
Reply 24, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3338 times:

Milk run jokes aside, I still think that AI would be best to combine MEL and SYD, and by-pass SIN.

Out of curiosity, which airport out of MAA or BLR is best suited for transit pax, has the most domestic connections and is most thriving city at the moment??



25 Jasepl : MAA certainly the best I've been to in the country. And it's got more connectivity than BLR, I think.
26 Sshank : MAA certainly the best I've been to in the country True. In terms of airport infrastructure MAA is leaps ahead of BLR. In terms of domestic connectivi
27 6thfreedom : interesting... here's another Q. apart from air, what's the transport infrastructure like between MAA and BLR?? ie, would a person from BLR travel ove
28 Post contains images MrNiji : BOM-MAA-KUL-SIN-MEL-SYD-SIN-HYD-DEL-BOM You forgot tha PER leg, dude Milk run jokes aside, I still think that AI would be best to combine MEL and SYD,
29 6thfreedom : Mr Niji, Unfortunately it's best that I don't reveal my sources, but let's just say that they are fairly accurate. I can also give you proposed flight
30 TKMCE : apart from air, what's the transport infrastructure like between MAA and BLR?? ***** there are abt 5 pairs of trains, the fastetst of which takes abt
31 B747-437B : Unfortunately it's best that I don't reveal my sources Indeed, because I doubt your airline's planning department (or even worse, slot co-ordinator) w
32 6thfreedom : Not quite B747-437B, but point taken... FYI - neither of the 'sources' u quoted are my sources....
33 MrNiji : Re: Nonstop or via SIN I just thought about this question again... a nonstop would be only great of AI synergizes dep with flights from Europe, ME and
34 6thfreedom : I was under the impression that Europe-India flights are generally pretty full, and there isn't a need for 6th freedom traffic onto Australia. I also
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