Remymartin11 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 69 posts, RR: 2 Posted (10 years 6 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3143 times:
Can anyone shed light on why carriers do not fly JFK-HNL(or OGG) non stop? Until CO started their 762 daily EWR-HNL service last year, it was a connect. I've heard rumblings of HI being a "low yield" market (whatever that means). I have to believe that the market would support and pay for a 3-class flight (similar to AA and UA transcon) on that route. The minimalist domestic FC from West Coast is pitiful. For a flight of that duration, surely people would pay for premium service (legrests, lie-flat seats, etc). Sure it would attract a lot of frequent flyer redemptions, but I cannot believe anymore than a JFK-LAX or JFK-SFO route already does. Airlines always have the restrictions to fall back on.
Personally, I just think the airlines are clueless and cannot see the forest through the trees. 10 hours from JFK.....where is the luxury for those willing to pay for it?
United_Fan From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 7583 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (10 years 6 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3116 times:
Well CO uses 767-400's to HNL . The 762's are used to Europe.
Flight Number 15
Departure City (Airport) Newark, NJ (EWR)
Departure Time 11/21/2004 02:38 PM
Arrival City (Airport) Honolulu, HI (HNL)
Arrival Time 11/21/2004 07:48 PM
Remaining Flight Time 00:00
Aircraft Type B764
Current Altitude 0 feet
Current Groundspeed 0 mph
Flight Status Landed
'Empathy was yesterday...Today, you're wasting my Mother-F'ing time' - Heat.
Drerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5300 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (10 years 6 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3073 times:
Well a couple of things:
ATA use to fly JFK-HNL with L1011-500s (L15) if I'm not mistaken in the early-mid '90s.
Secondly, airlines probably don't have the aircraft that could profitable operate the route due to the low yields. If the 757 could fly the route you'd definately see more carriers on the route. A good portion of traffic to Hawaii is FF redemption (I know I'm about to cash my miles in for a Hawaii run), and remember there are not many connection opportunities in New York for Hawaii traffic. Europeans don't travel to Hawaii enmass due to the close distance of equally (if not more so) exotic destinations.
ConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (10 years 6 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3039 times:
There used to be plenty of Hawaiian nonstop service from Kennedy (ironically, even by Continental at one point).
But as with most of its domestic operations, Kennedy is relatively lower yielding than LaGuardia and Liberty... ergo, airlines would rather connect their pax through stronger hubs/gateways (or as in CO's case, fly from EWR).
I've heard rumblings of HI being a "low yield" market
Basically, yield is the ratio/degree or relative profit that an airline can derive per operation into a given market.... it's usually directly correlated to the amount of service into that market for given/similar destinations.
Here's some examples:
Las Vegas to Los Angeles is a typically low-yielding route:
it's dominated by high-frequency operations (by LoCos) offering rock-bottom fares.
Airlines such as Delta, JetBlue, and plenty of others decided to pull the route because they just couldn't make money on it.
Paris to Luanda is an extremely high-yielding route:
often the most profitable in Air France's network
got a wealthy business population/organization that needs travel to Paris, Houston, the MidEast, and Russia.
AF is basically the only one to provide scheduled full service on such destinations
...meaning AF can name whatever price it wants on the routes, and the suckers have to cough it up.
Flyboyaz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (10 years 6 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2942 times:
I've often wondered that myself. Did TWA ever operate a nonstop to HNL from JFK? I would think so, but can't remember. I can't imagine NYC to HNL would be very low yield...that's a long flight. I priced a roundtrip on CO in January it came to about $640. That's pretty decent money. Every time I checked the loads, they were full out of EWR. Reward tickets to Hawaii aren't easy to get either, believe me, I've tried.
Mdsh00 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4136 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (10 years 6 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2908 times:
# Las Vegas to Los Angeles is a typically low-yielding route:it's dominated by high-frequency operations (by LoCos) offering rock-bottom fares.
# Airlines such as Delta, JetBlue, and plenty of others decided to pull the route because they just couldn't make money on it.
You forgot to add that many people just drive between the two cities.
I think if I lived in the East Coast, I'd rather fly to the Caribbean rather than take a LONG flight out to Hawaii. A lot of visitors to Hawaii live on the Pacific Rim. I saw a lot less East Coasters when I was there.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
Remymartin11 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 69 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (10 years 6 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2884 times:
I have to believe there are enough paying passengers to justify a JFK non stop. Even though JFK is not feeder airport, neither is EWR. Euros dont go to Hawaii - why when you have Seychelles, Mauritius and Maldives so much closer? If AA or UA had any vision, they would launch the service and see what happens. Make award seats limited....I guarantee there are enough tri-staters looking to travel to HI YEAR ROUND that loads would be full.
Wjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5506 posts, RR: 22
Reply 12, posted (10 years 6 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2858 times:
CO does the nonstop as a sop to its East Coast FFs who want to redeem miles, plus whatever revenue traffic they can get. Same for Delta out of ATL. The fact is that there is plenty of low-cost lift to HI off the West Coast. Accordingly, whomever wants to compete with CO's once-daily nonstop, yet without connections, is going to have some trouble. Why? Because a person would have to say, "Hmmmmm....I think I'll pay an extra $400 to go nonstop." Not enough people think like that when it comes to spending their own money. Company money, no problem. Own money, no way. If there's low-fare lift available, even with a stop, the nonstop service in leisure markets will have to come close to matching it. Hence the current US airline crisis.
Worse, many people want to burn miles to pay a coach fare and upgrade for free to First when flying this far. So the thing's even low-revenue in First.
ATA had the service for about a year, maybe a bit less. It was marketed by Pleasant Hawaiian Holidays, a very powerful marketer that routinely fills 757-300s out of West Coast origins to HNL and OGG. It featured a high level of service on widebody aircraft, free upgraded meals, free IFE, extra leg room, a lei, etc. It was widely-promoted, in free media and through travel agents. And it was offered at a price competitive with one stop service, from ORD and from JFK. It failed. So it may be "hard to believe", but it's true.
N1120a From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 27537 posts, RR: 74
Reply 13, posted (10 years 6 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2859 times:
You have to realize that first, CO has a very loyal base in the area, especially people from New Jersey who don't want to go to the other side of New York to fly. Also, they offer Business/First on the 764s and can command a premium because the offer the only non-stop from the New York area to Hawaii. If there were more carriers in the market, it would likely hurt yields but creating more competition, which neither the carrier entering or CO would want. Also, an LCC like AQ or B6 could not do it because their aircraft don't have the range to fly the route.
Also, the reason you don't see an OGG non-stop is because OGG has a 6995 foot runway, and heavies (with the exception of the 767) have a hard enough time getting out of there to the West Coast, let alone going twice as far.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
Wjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5506 posts, RR: 22
Reply 14, posted (10 years 6 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2845 times:
PS If you look at a random selection of trips from EWR to HNL with a week stay in December, it's $540 round trip whether nonstop on CO or one stop on AA or UAL or anyone else else. This tends to show that the leisure travelers who book itineraries like that are not willing to pay a premium for the nonstop service. And the folks who are travelling on business are going to fly the carrier on which they have an elite loyalty status, both to get the FC upgrade and to get the base miles.
Cory6188 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2712 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (10 years 6 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2836 times:
If OGG's runway was longer, I'm sure that CO would seriously look into starting non-stop EWR-OGG service in addition to the EWR-HNL service. There are many people in our area that do EWR-HNL just to connect to OGG.
Pecoua From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 300 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (10 years 6 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2802 times:
Excellent topic, but just one correction...UA never flew nonstop from EWR to the islands...they had a 747 since 1974 to early 1985 flying flight 35 from EWR to SFO with continuing svc to HNL...UA did fly nonstop from JFK back in the late 60's early 70's with baby DC-8s...the only nonstop from EWR was CO....we use to get called for it on reserve when the DC-10 broke and they put an x-PeoplExpress 747 on it....that was fun.
B6FA4ever From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 820 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (10 years 6 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2797 times:
East coast to HNL really isn't worth it non-stop. CO can get away w/ it because of their hub in EWR to gain connecting passengers to fill the plane. there are so many possibilities for someone to get to HNL from the east coast with just one stop...doesn't matter what airline ur flying (just make the one connection to that particular airlines hub). like mentioned in an earlier post...why go to HNL when the carribean is so much closer and pretty much the same scenery.
thats the way i feel...im from Cali and i'd rather go to hawaii (though i do have family there so thats my excuse) but i could care less about going to the carribean.
any other airline wanting to try this routing would highly rely on O&D traffic. I don't think Hawaiian Air would be able to pull it off w/ their inter-island ops there to have connecting traffic. (it would be great to see Pualani in JFK but very doubtful).
Petazulu From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 701 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (10 years 6 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2779 times:
Did I read correctly that CO is starting seasonal service EWR to Cabo San Lucas? Thats pretty wild. I know Cabo is booming, but East Coaster tend to focus on the Carribean/Florida and Eastern Mexico for vacation. If they can fill a plane to Cabo- you would think they could fill more than one to Hawaii every day- much bigger place.
Panamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5043 posts, RR: 24
Reply 21, posted (10 years 6 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2766 times:
Actually, for a short period in the eighties, Pan Am did have a nonstop between JFK and HNL. It operated twice a week, Fridays and Saturdays using their 747-100s. It was PA 17 on the westbound and PA 18 on the eastbound. This was in addition to their daily 747 one-stop service via LAX (originally PA811, a late afternoon departure from JFk and later switched to PA 81, a morning departure from JFK)
ScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6996 posts, RR: 31
Reply 23, posted (10 years 6 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2714 times:
Actually, $540 or $640 round-trip from NYC to HNL is pretty poor for yield when you consider that the round-trip distance is just a shade under 10,000 miles. And you simply cannot compare the traffic mix on JFK-HNL (predominantly leisure/frequent flyer redemption) to JFK-LAX and JFK-SFO which both have very heavy business traffic. United's decision to target their p.s. product to these routes demonstrates that they feel that there's lots of high-yield traffic between JFK and LAX/SFO.
AA or DL could probably make one or two weekly round-trips from JFK on a 767-300ER work, but it's just more cost-effective for them to route people through their hubs. Most of this traffic is price-driven and they're not going to get much of a premium for a non-stop. Restricting seats available for redemption doesn't help much unless you have enough folks willing to pay for the seats. And, as others have said, Hawai'i isn't a terribly popular destination for people on the East Coast because it takes so darned long to get there. Most Caribbean destinations are only 4-5 hours away, Florida is three hours from NYC, and you could probably even get to many beach destinations in Europe in under 11 hours.
The EWR-HNL flight on a DC-10 existed in March, 1999, since I was on it. Fortunately I slept through most of it. And CO Micronesia's service from HNL is extremely limited -- mostly just the non-stop to GUM and the thrice-weekly island-hopper through Micronesia. Air Mike doesn't fly to Samoa.