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Delta Flight Attendants: Why Don't They Unionize?  
User currently offlineSHUPirate1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3670 posts, RR: 17
Posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4116 times:

It's fairly obvious that, unless something drastic happens, Delta's Flight Attendants (and all of their other workgroups except the pilots and dispatchers) are going to be working for minimum-wage without any sort of benefits before long, as for as long as they remain non-union, Delta can pay their non-union employees whatever they want, and the employee's only recourse is to go find a new job, or suck it up and deal with it. Why haven't Delta's Flight Attendants, Mechanics, etc. formed their own union (always a better idea if you ask me, as they are more likely to act in their own best interests than, to use a fresh example, to ask AFA to help them out) and sat down at the table in an attempt to negotiate, so they can't idly sit by and watch their wages plummet to $5.15 per hour, with them expected to sleep in the airport terminals, have their non-rev privleges revoked, and have their only recourse be to go find a new job?

(Note: Contrary to my stance on the US CSR and flight attendants's, I am pro-union, but only if they are acting in their own best interests, and clearly, in the AFA situation, the representatives are not.)

[Edited 2004-11-24 09:12:30]


Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineFlybyguy From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 1801 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4103 times:

Delta doesn't want to be screwed. Unions will drive the company to liquidation in short order simply for the sake of revenge.


"Are you a pretender... or a thoroughbred?!" - Professor Matt Miller
User currently offlineSHUPirate1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3670 posts, RR: 17
Reply 2, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4096 times:

Flybyguy-I'm recommending they form their own in-house union to represent themselves, not that they petition the IAM, CAW, AFA, or anybody else to represent them. I firmly believe that the best way for employee groups to be negotiating in their own best interests, and in good faith, is to have their unions in-house, rather than be stuck with whatever the representative body wants to force on them. I don't know a single employee, of any company, who wishes that their employer goes out of business, and if that employee does, (s)he probably would be better-served finding a new job anyway.


Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 3, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4051 times:

No, it's not at all obvious that DL FAs will end up at minimum wage. Very few people are paid minimum wage because, in the absense of unions, a free market sets wages. Those whose work is worth more than minimum wage are paid more. Those whose work is worth less than minimum wage are prohibited by law from having a job. Only those whose work is worth almost exactly minimum wage are paid that wage.

Now, why would DL FAs want to pay fat salaries to union bosses out of their own pockets? To choke DL to death? Less take home pay and less job security doesn't seem attractive to me.


User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4876 posts, RR: 25
Reply 4, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 4031 times:
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"It's fairly obvious that, unless something drastic happens, Delta's Flight Attendants (and all of their other workgroups except the pilots and dispatchers) are going to be working for minimum-wage without any sort of benefits before long"

I agree with Zvezda...it's not obvious that Delta would do that...Delta could have done that a long time ago but has not...They could have imposed wage cuts across the board with their non-union employees last year or the year before but instead, the 10% cut will only go into effect Jan 2005. They know that such draconian measures would only bring in the unions, so they mostly try to strike a balance between cuts and benefits. Look at other carriers with unionized f/as or mechanics, etc., has it done UAL any good in terms of preservation of wage levels and benefits? Delta management knows that it is stupid business to have everyone work at minimum wage and receive no benefits...


User currently offlineGREASESPOT From Canada, joined Apr 2004, 3078 posts, RR: 20
Reply 5, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 4020 times:

Interesting on how this is coming from the guy who wanted to know how to become a SCAB....

GS



Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
User currently offlineCyrillim From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 35 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3954 times:

In general, I am not pro union because I believe it encourages mediocrity. However there are circumstances that warrant it. I think though its a good thing that there are still airlines that are non unionized, however management also needs to adopt a "non unionized" mentality when treating employees.

Some insight, here is what happens when you don't have a union at Delta . . . .

http://queenofsky.journalspace.com

Happy reading.




NO URLS in signature
User currently offlineMidnightMike From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2892 posts, RR: 14
Reply 7, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3942 times:

That gal from Queen of the Sky, deserved to be dismissed from Delta Airlines and will serve as an example of what not to do in the future. Sure, she is pleading innocence now, but some of those pictures on her website and the comments were sexual in nature.

Bad example of a reason for a union.



NO URLS in signature
User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3902 times:

Delta's F/As have been trying to unionize for nearly 25 years, and have never been able to get enough support from amongst their employee group to get unionized. Delta is one the least unionized airlines and that's because the company in the past always have very good benefits and pay because of their competition in Atlanta for many years, Eastern Airlines, who was heavily unionized. Eastern's rampers would be making say $10 an hour, Delta's would be too. When Eastern went under, so did those nice starting pay rates. The rampers have been trying to unionize for as long as the F/As have and once again, they never get enough support from within their own employee group. It's honestly hard to unionize in the south, in most cases, the ones that are unionized are because of their fellow employees in other parts of the country are, so they end up unionized as well.

IMHO, unions have really outlasted their necessity. Many of the benefits unions have fought for over the years are benefits extended to all employees now. Unions unfortunately keep idiots in jobs that they should be fired from. My grandfather was in the union @ Eastern until he went into management, and after dealing firsthand with them, changed his tune on them. He'd fire a guy for chronic absences and tardiness, union would get the guy his job back. He'd fire a incompetant employee, the union would get them their job back. My late neighbor across the street was in the IAM @ Eastern and when Eastern went under, he kept saying how the union was going to get them all of their benefits guaranteed under the IAM contract with Eastern. How are you going to get everything you claim you're owed from a comapny that hasn't got anything.

I was working @ FL back in 1999 when the IAM tried to unionize the rampers, gate agents, and res agents. The whole process was very bitter. Friends against friends, management telling us that voting in a union wasn't going to be a magic pill to solve our issues overnight. When the IAM got certified to hold a vote, the MX guys, who are represented by the Teamsters, started going around trying to get the rampers and gate agents to try to get the Teamsters certified to hold a vote (I would have rather had the Teamsters than the IAM, they treat their members better). Once the results were announced, the pro-IAM folks sulked for a few days, but things went back to normal as best as they could.


User currently offlineATWZW170 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 904 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3890 times:

I know I hear all the time that work groups want to have a union but what I have experienced is that workers who do not need to be at the airline have job security. I watch as the union tries to protect the jobs of those who shouldn't be working for an airline. I don't think that unions always have the "big picture" in mind. It's like Easterns Mach..when they refused to take the pay cut. When Eastern went out of business they had the attitude that, "we won". I think that is the wrong attitude to have. I think the union has made dealing with management a very hard thing. I look at United who has gate several gate agents with bad attitudes, treat passengers very poorly, and don't care...and they make $25 an hour. I don't think that United is getting what they pay for. Unions have to realize that there is a wage that can be expected....Gate agents probably need to top out at $15-19 an hour. What skill is a company paying for? It's not just United, it's other airlines as well. Back in the day when all airlines were making money they were more willing to pay higher wages because they could..and that is the airlines fault for giving in...but now most airlines are bleeding money....they have to take away the paycuts...bring them back to a wage that is equal to the skill. I'm sure my opinion is not very popular but it is just my opinion. I think focus groups are the way to go. Groups of employees who represent each work group, bring issues to management and have talks about those issues. Then bring the facts, not all the union emotion and propaganda, back to the employees. It's open communication. That is what keeps a company going and the respect level for everyone at high levels. Unions close doors to open communication. Managers are always having to tip-toe around issues. But again, just my opinion. I think DL's F/A's are smart not to unionize.


Success is getting what you want...happiness is liking what you get
User currently offlineSeaMeFly From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 317 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3870 times:

Greedy has come to mind... Most DL FAs think that their Co would always be in the best financial shape so they didn't think they would need a union or share their $ to pay for a union membership.

Live and learn..


User currently offlineAlgoz From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 130 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3866 times:

Speaking as a manager for a large US carrier (in the UK).....we are trying to organise collective bargaining for our group. Why??? This is the scenario...
Union represented employees got 2% increase in October 2002. Managers got zero. Union represented employees got further 3.2% in May 2003 (payment to be deferred for an unspecified period). Managers got zero. In October 2004 union employees got further 4.1% backdated to October 2003, plus payment of the earlier 3.2% backdated to May 2003. Many of my employees took home in excess of equivalent $3000 in back pay.
Managers finally got 3.5 to 4% in October 2004, with NO backpay. Despite protestations, no one listens. Is it equitable? No end of consultations and negotiations for other benefits to compensate for the disparity have led exactly nowhere. It demonstrates to me at least, that the loud voices of collective bargaining have a place in some situations.


User currently offlineATWZW170 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 904 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3853 times:

As a manager, I didn't think you could have any type of union? Or are the laws that different in the UK? And as a manager, you knew what you were getting into. I realize that I don't make as much as some agents. But as a manager I have to look at the pros and cons...I don't work holidays, I don't have to put in all the extra hours to make a nice paycheck, I can leave a little early and it's no problem...so even though as a manger I might not make as much as some of the agents, I have a lot more freedom. You have to make the choice for yourself...but I don't think any management group needs a union.


Success is getting what you want...happiness is liking what you get
User currently offlineAlgoz From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 130 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3841 times:

ATWZW170, I wish I could work where you do....
I DO work public holidays, I DO start work at 0530 some mornings, I DO put in lots of extra hours to make a "not-so-nice" paycheck. All I'm talking about is treating one group of employees differently to another. Yes, I know I have a choice - look for another job. My point is, when times are hard, then everyone should participate in give-backs, not just one group.


User currently offlineAASTEW From Dominican Republic, joined Oct 2001, 447 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3836 times:

Do DL F/A's think about if and when DL would be acquired by another airline? Let's take Continental for example. CO F/A's represented by IAM have significant seniority merger clauses in their contracts. Guess where DL F/A's would end up if CO or any other airline with those clauses in their contracts!!!



User currently offlineBoeing757/767 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 2282 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3823 times:

Hey, welcome to the vast majority of the work force out there -- non-union is the way to go. If you don't like it -- walk away and find something else to do.

I actually commend Delta for keeping unions away (for the most part).



Free-thinking, left-leaning secularist
User currently offlineAlgoz From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 130 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3817 times:

Boeing757/767......obviously Delta treats it's employees better than my company. I already said I know I have a choice. Don't need you to spell it out for me. Thank you anyway for your constructive feedback.

User currently offlineDalmd88 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2534 posts, RR: 14
Reply 17, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3786 times:

"If you don't like it here there is the door." Spoken like a true Union hater. Why should I quit my job instead of trying to make it better?

User currently offlineUal777contrail From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3770 times:

Unions ruin companies!!! Plain and simple, if you need an example, UAL.

User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3771 times:

http://www.airwhiners.net/whine_cheez/20030509.htm

The Delta of pre-deregulation days was largely an entity that defined its own niche. The primary focus of the airline was to serve communities in the Southeastern United States, both by providing air services as well as being a corporate citizen of the region. Delta was more than just a transportation provider or an employer - it was a way of life. Thus the "Delta family" was born. In an era of regulation where each airline could pick and choose where it could compete, Delta was able to let the availability of appropriate "family members" be the factor that determined the pace of their growth. The employees loved the airline and vice-versa. The "Spirit of Delta" is a classic example of this mutual respect. There was no employees versus management struggle that characterizes labor relations in the industry today. Management were employees and employees were management.

Deregulation changed that once and for all. It created an environment where universal accessibility was the only way for a network carrier to compete. Some airlines like American and United chose growth as the means towards achieving this universal accessibility, while others like Delta and Northwest chose consolidation via mergers and acquisitions.

The first nail in the Delta family coffin was the merger with Western. Both airlines had very strong corporate cultures, but the cultures were simply not compatible. As the surviving entity, Delta essentially required that the Western folks shape up to the "Deltoid" mold, something that was very hard to accept for the Western folks who would always be considered outsiders. To this day, almost 2 decades later, longtime Delta employees refer to each other as "original" and "ex-Western".

Nonetheless, despite a few acrimonious issues arising, the amalgamation of Western into Delta was largely painless compared to other transactions of the day (remember, this was the era of Frank Lorenzo running amok with his acquisition machine). The Western employees settled down in their role as stepchildren of the airline doing their own little thang out in the west, for the most part away from the core Southeastern markets.

Then came the death of Pan Am, throwing up a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for an airline to capitalize by scavenging the international routes of this dying behemoth. With all the other major competitors having already made their moves, Ron Allen made a play first for the whole enchilada and subsequently just the tasty fillings. Volumes have been written about the way that Allen handled the transaction, but the end result was that he was perceived by PanAm employees to have reneged on his word and caused the final nail to be driven into the coffin of the blue meatball. This was scarcely the right time for Delta to try and amalgamate these same people into the tight-knit Delta family.

In the end, that was what destroyed the Delta family. The PanAm folks came in with a chip on their shoulders, both from what they perceived as Delta's role in killing their airline as well as the standard gripes over seniority, pensions, etc... that accompany every transaction. Costs spiralled as Delta scrambled to integrate incompatible systems and aircraft into their own operations. The increasing costs forced Ron Allen to launch Leadership 7.5 which only served to alienate the most loyal of the remaining "original Deltoids". The point of no return was crossed.

I have a soft spot for Ron Allen partly because we share the same alma mater of Georgia Tech, but mainly because I think he was the last true nuts-and-bolts airline chief in the United States. He gave his life to Delta and without a doubt would have given his life for Delta. That alone inspired loyalty among the few Deltoids he had yet to alienate and kept him in the drivers seat for so long before making an inglorious exit to stage left.

Enter Leo Mullin, the Harvard man from a Chicago utilities firm. For an airline that had never even hired a chief executive from another player within the industry, the choice of Mullin to succeed Allen was a complete shock. To his credit, Leo implemented programs that achieved the same results that Allen sought from Leadership 7.5, but without the transparency that Allen had used to his detriment.

In the past, Delta had always been able to keep unions out of their airline by treating the employees fairly and generously, thus creating an atmosphere of trust. The AFA unionization vote of 2002 was a watershed event in that Delta succeeded in keeping unions off property again, but did so by cultivating an atmosphere of lies, fear and mistrust. They then went and stabbed their employees in the back by reneging on many commitments they had been made during the anti-union campaign. This is merely one example of the "us versus them" mentality that has pervaded the airline. You simply cannot unite to compete with an external threat when you are too busy fighting your own civil war. Alas, that is where Delta has fallen.

Now that the Delta employee is disillusioned by the airline, obviously that malcontent will pass down to the consumer. Remember, the original Delta family was a community affair consisting not only of the Delta employees, but also the regular customers who were recognized as Flying Colonels and Flying Orchids. Now that the employees themselves no longer feel part of the family, nor do the consumers. The difference of course is that consumers always have a choice, whereas employees rarely have a similar luxury.


User currently offlineBoeing757/767 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 2282 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3750 times:

Dalmd88

You say "Why should I quit my job instead of trying to make it better?"

The goal of unions is not to make your job better. Case in point -- the threat by flight attendants at various carriers to stage CHAOS. This is the dumbest idea I have read about in the last few months. It will mean the kiss of death for at least one airline. If your job relies on a union with this kind of brain power, then I feel sorry for you.

While I am fairly liberal, I cannot stand the thought of unions dictating how people should act even if it is against their best interest.

To answer the original topic question, unions are a dying breed, a relic from a bygone era when they were actually needed. Between market forces, federal regulations, state laws, FAA regulations, etc., there is just no need for unions. Delta has obviously recognized that, and has worked to keep good relations with employees.



Free-thinking, left-leaning secularist
User currently offlineSHUPirate1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3670 posts, RR: 17
Reply 21, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3583 times:

Boeing-Let's set this straight:

In theory, unions are supposed to make the person's job better, and if they were in-house, would in fact. However, the fact is that unionization is highly outsourced these days, and as a result, ends up in the hands of organizations such as the IAM, CWA, and (the latest source of trouble) the AFA, who have no interest except to collect union dues from their constituencies. If unions were in-house, as the Northwest Airlines flight attendants have done, they would instead be far more representative of their constituencies, and no employee in their right mind would rather have no job than a job at less pay. If they would, quite frankly, more would have quit by now. Sadly, in the case of the big union organizers, this is not always (or even the majority of the time) true.



Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
User currently offlineBR715-A1-30 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3576 times:

I think DL F/As need to call "The Painter's Union" They don't JUST represent painters ya know... http://www.ibpat.org/  Laugh out loud

[Edited 2004-11-25 06:49:43]

User currently offlineSHUPirate1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3670 posts, RR: 17
Reply 23, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3532 times:

BR715-I disagree. What Delta's flight attendants need to do is form their own, in-house union and represent themselves. Non-union employees get bent over and raped by their employers, and union employees that are outsourced are bent over and raped by their representatives who don't have their constituencies in mind. Like I've said about 5 times in this thread already, if you want to have your best interests represented, form your own union, and represent yourselves.


Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
User currently offlineOttoPylit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 3454 times:

Why haven't Delta's Flight Attendants, Mechanics, etc. formed their own union

Because they dont need to. Delta has always been a family airline. Delta had a motto for its employees, "Top Pay for Top Performance." As long as the employees kept the airline doing well, they would be the highest paid airline employees, and if not the highest, at least in the top tier. And thats the way it has always been. Most employees don't feel that we need a union. Why should we pay our hard earned money for a union that will do nothing but create animosity between the employees and management? Why not have a management who feels conscious for its employees to not have a union for so long and will reward them as such. Let UA or AA's unions battle it out, just to have Delta top it a year or two later. That way someone else pays for the raise and we are still snuggled in bed with our own management. But, now the entire industry is going through a large change and Delta's employees have been told that the Top Pay may not be the case as much anymore, at least until the shakeup settles down. Delta's employees are willing to see how everything turns out before possibly turning to a union. Take a look at the majors right now. Every major has had to turn to its unions over and over for concessions. Delta held out as long as it could and then told the employees that a paycut would come. But the paycut is only 10% for all employees, including management. Grinstein has not accepted payment since Sept, and he is only paid $500,000 a year. He will continue to accept no payment until the year is over, all by his own accord. If the employees have to take a paycut, so will he(to some sort). Pilots, as we have all heard, finally ratified a 32.5% paycut. Although trying to get details is like trying to squeeze blood from a rock, from my calculations, they are STILL the highest paid in the industry, which is exactly what they wanted during the "United Plus 1" campaign in 2000, where they wanted United pay(highest at the time) plus 1% more. Sure Delta is non-union and can do anything they want, but because the employees have enough faith in management to do what is right, they are treated accordingly. If management suddenly just cut pay to minimum wage, you would have every union knocking down the doors.


Delta's F/As have been trying to unionize for nearly 25 years, and have never been able to get enough support from amongst their employee group to get unionized. Delta is one the least unionized airlines and that's because the company in the past always have very good benefits and pay because of their competition in Atlanta for many years, Eastern Airlines, who was heavily unionized.

Delta's F/A's just recently had their first unionization in the past 25 years. As in every company, you have a few pro-union idiots walking around trying to beef up the support. Ironically, these were former OAL employees who didn't understand how Delta works. You had a first few year employees walking around saying, "We need the protection, we don't know what will happen." You then had the 25 year employees saying, "Trust me, you don't need a union." Many F/A's showed their support of no union by tearing up their vote cards and sticking them in little Ziplock bags and attaching them to their flight bags. In the end, the overwhelming majority of F/A's voted 71% to 29% not in favor of a union.

Of course, the AFA was pissed because they had just spent the better part of 5 years and 5 million dollars trying to unionize Delta's F/A's. But they still lost all those dues paid by so many other airline flight attendants for nothing. In '99, the TWU tried to unionize Delta's ground employees, with something like an 80% rejection vote.

Delta's employees know that a union is not needed to work for a world class airline. Yea, times are rough, paycuts were foreseen, and 10% is a lot easier than what would have been asked through a union. Plus, Delta is able to offer a Retirement Package and Voluntary Seperation with Travel benefits, where you can leave the company and still get yield fare travel with Delta for as many years as you have with the company. If a union were on property, Delta would not be able to offer those to the employees. Besides, employees don't want to have to pay union dues, and management knows that by paying your employees a little more here and there is a lot cheaper than having them turn to a union to try and squeeze the money from the company. Ask any former Eastern or Pan Am employee that works for Delta now and they will tell you, "Delta doesn't need a union and it won't do anything good for you."


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