Mikey711MN From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1425 posts, RR: 8 Posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4505 times:
United Asks Court to End Union Contracts
Wednesday November 24, 11:23 pm ET
By Don Babwin, Associated Press Writer
United Airlines Asks Court to End Union Deals if Carrier Can't Get $725M More in Cost Savings
CHICAGO (AP) -- United Airlines asked a bankruptcy court Wednesday to terminate its union contracts if the carrier can't get an additional $725 million in cost savings from employees by mid-January.
The nation's No. 2 airline says it needs the additional labor concessions and the ability to drop traditional pensions to secure financing and get out of bankruptcy. The cuts would come atop the $2.5 billion United employees have already made in annual labor concessions.
In its court filing, the company said it "is committed to attempting to negotiate agreements with its unions on the required savings, but its urgent financial needs compel the company to file this motion in case consensual resolutions cannot be reached."
Sdkualeb From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 129 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 4448 times:
Im starting to think that getting laid off this month couldn't happen at a better time. And now IM stress free, the place is spinning out of control and I was able to get out at the right time. The only people that I feel sorry for are all the Union people that has mad the company look good all threw this mess and now are getting screwed the most. Good luck too them. I hope all works out well. You all deserve better then this.
Scotron11 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 1207 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 4438 times:
It has been discussed before and I am sure will be discussed many times more. but when is this carrier actually going to emerge from Chap.11?
We need this concession. That, it seems, is all you hear from UAL these days; but no concrete exit date. Ok, they get this agreement, what then? Oh, by the way, can you cancel out Pension Plans as well, otherwise we will have to stay in Chap.11.
It is not a dark cloud over just UAL employees, it is an ominous signal to ALL airline employees; If UAL are allowed to annul their Pension Plans, what are all the other carriers going to do with their plans?
United1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 6882 posts, RR: 10
Reply 5, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4296 times:
UA did this before earlier in the BK process. Last time they reached "consensual" agreements with the Unions so they ended the process. It takes 60 days to end/replace a Union contract in Court so, as has been discussed before, in order to get everything in place by mid January they had to file now.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
FriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4138 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4288 times:
I too would like to see UA come up with an exit plan, but all they can do is keep on taking. I don't see the contracts being terminated, most likely they will reach some agreement with the unions. Afterall, it's not like they have a choice. I just hope this is the last one for awhile...
SPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2374 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4283 times:
Question. When, and if UA and US get all of these concessions, will they then be considered the scourge of the industry for bringing compensation down. They (UA/US) will have a cost (unfair?)advantage over the carriers that haven't gone chap.11. I ask this because of statements I have heard in the past from certain groups at UA and US, directed at other carriers. I'm not taking a personal jab at anyone, just curious how the other wolves are going to behave when the previous leaders have a limp.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
Supa7e7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4250 times:
I feel thankful for living in America, where we are free. Free to work, with or without unions.
SPREE, hopefully people can appreciate the benefits of a free labor market. It results in lower prices, which the LCCs have introduced. Given those prices in all major markets, there's no room for a union pay premium above perhaps 10-20% (not 80-100% as it was until recently, relative to equivalent skilled jobs outside the unions). This is not a moral issue so much as an irreversible, mainly good, change.
DfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1138 posts, RR: 51
Reply 10, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4233 times:
Jeez... happy Thanksgiving UA
SPREE, hopefully people can appreciate the benefits of a free labor market. It results in lower prices, which the LCCs have introduced. Given those prices in all major markets, there's no room for a union pay premium above perhaps 10-20% (not 80-100% as it was until recently, relative to equivalent skilled jobs outside the unions).
One LCC in particular, WN, is one of the most heavily unionized airlines in the industry and they are doing just fine. So long as unions don't hold a company hostage, they are not the enemy.
The problem is with management who think they can trod through Ch. 11 without making the really painful cuts like selling assets or cutting routes. Isn't UA coming up on two years in Ch. 11?
Uadc8contrail From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1782 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4085 times:
first thing that comes to my mind is how WN has some of the highest paying wages in the industry so the unions and mgmt have found a really nice common ground(kinda throws the union messing things up thoughts out the door). 2nd thing is any of you other legacy carriers employees that wish demise on ual....ual will prevail albeit a smaller and reduced cost airline BUT you minions at the other legacys are going to ride shot gun whether you like it or not when it comes to wages,pensions and other benefits, even if ual goes belly up the rules have been rewritten and there is no turning back now, good luck and enjoy the ride,,,better get moved back to mom and dads and enjoy the ramen noodles along with the l.c.c. folks.......
Uadc8contrail From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1782 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 4063 times:
What is the point in having contracts?---BENNETT123
uals employees wont have to worry about contracts as when ual filed the papers on wed there is a provision that has it that if judge gene DOES not act on the motion within 30 days then ual can abrogate the contracts till he rules on them....meaning...gene can take as long as he wants and utill he issues a opinion then ual can impose anything they want on the employees as if they are not covered by any collective bargaining agreement. ALSO all he is to consider is 2 THINGS...either enforce the CURRENT contract or axe the union contracts.....this does not bode well for any union member at any carrier covered by union agreements....and that includes WN as well
UALramperORD From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3963 times:
This is the main thing I dont like about my company. I hear about all this stuff from tthe media and you folks before they tell us...or if they tell us. I think any UA employee will agree somewhat. If we gotta take more pay cuts so be it...as long as its not outrageous like 5 an hour, and as long as I get to keep my job.
Supa7e7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3911 times:
Unions negotiate pay premiums so they make more than "real world" workers. Many airline employees used to make 100% more than their job description demanded. Sometimes even 200%. Pilots at 250k, FA at 60k, gate agent at 50k, you get the picture, all thanks to hard core negotiations.
To despair about pay cuts is one thing, but the bedrock figure is what your competitor workers are paid. As an example, legacy carriers will cut the wages of call center workers from say $21/hr to about $10/hr. Because that's what call center jobs pay in the real world. Eventually competition does catch up with the union pay premium -- in bankruptcy court, where at least the jobs and company can be saved.
AADC10 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2148 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3868 times:
It is not very likely that the contracts would actually be voided. It is just a tactic to pressure the unions to renegotiate. It also provides cover for the union leadership when they give concessions. Otherwise the angry rank-and-file might turn out the leaders or switch unions, as the UA mechanics did.
Klwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 2407 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3844 times:
Yes, and more and more, pension plans (defined benefits as opposed to a 401K defined contribution plan) are becoming extinct since having a company pay out for years into an employee's retirement is becoming a risky, expensive proposition.
The only place where defined benefit retirement plans are the norm are government sector jobs. But since the airlines used to be regulated, airlines were quasi public sector jobs....
Therefore I think it is inevitable that UA's pensions will be history, as depressing as it is.
Midway2airtran From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 864 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3790 times:
Southwest is special. I find it amazing they can pay a high union premium AND make profits. No one else is able to do that.
Southwest has engraved itself so well as an LCC leader that they have almost total price control in many of the markets served, the difference b/t them and the legacy carriers is their innovative framework. WN does not rely totally on low-cost structure, they know how to price their passengers and make the highest yeilds in the industry. Very smart!
As for the UAL situation, this should have be re-titled as
"United Asks Court For More Trouble Ahead"
Ltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13765 posts, RR: 17
Reply 23, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3710 times:
As noted above WN is heavily unionized, with well paid workers and few worker problems, but it isn't perfect. If I am correct, didn't it take almost 2 years to negotiate a contract with one group of workers?
WN can be successul with unions and good pay vs. 'legacies' for several reasons. One, they operate mostly short haul routes so don't usually have the overnight costs for flight staff/pilots (motels, meals); Two, they probably get far more efficiency (in flight/true work hours) from all of it's employees as started in the 1970's, not the 1940's unlike the legacies so have modern jet age rules; Three, while they do pay well vs. the industry they probably do not have the highest pay rates in the airline industry and get more on duty hours from their employees; Fourth, with some exceptions (out of LAX for example) most employees are based in lower cost of living areas of the USA; Fifth, no 'international' routes, with their additional labor costs; Sixth, fast turn around, so all have more efficient real duty time, without the lost time between flights.
As to UA attempting to end union contracts, they may not be really asking for total aborgation of them, but not far from them. Probably, they want the court to give them more authority to revise work rules, reduce pay and replace pension plans with 401(k) programs, with no or very limited contribution from UA. There is a risk of totally enraging their employees with this threat and may lead to (like proposed by US f/a's) CHAOS job actions with disruptment especially during Christmas time. Yes, the UA employees may be like lemmings over the cliffs, but for some further pay cuts and the end of pensions may be the point of no return, even with the end of UA and their jobs.