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LCCs In Frankfurt  
User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Posted (9 years 8 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 1837 times:

I was wondering about the likelihood of an LCC ever starting services to Frankfurt - what do you think: is it likely?

Or is the airport simply too dominated by LH and others? Do you think the situation will improve when - if ever - the airport gets it's additional runway?

Currently, the only thing here that resembles an LCC is Air Berlin (or have I missed any others?), but their fares from FRA are not really all that great: if I look very far in advance, I find (return, including taxes) fares to FCO from €160 upwards, VIE was at the same level: I can get fares on airlines like LH, OS, AZ, IB for just a bit more than that, but get better frequencies and timings.

So: will there ever be an LCC operating out of FRA?

Regards,
Frank

P.S.: Just to clarify that - I'm speaking of Frankfurt, not Hahn: while Hahn's airport is called "Frankfurt Hahn Airport", it is more than 100km away and the bus connection from Frankfurt to Hahn takes around 1 hour 45 minutes... from the same place where that bus leaves, I need around 10 minutes to Frankfurt's "normal" airport, so Hahn is - to me - of no interest whatsoever.


Smile - it confuses people!
13 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineAtamdji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 8 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 1801 times:

Frank,

a) there are no attractive slots left in FRA, when one does come up - FRA offers it to LH before others find out

b) landing fees are really horrendous, doesnt fit the LCC model at all

c) FRA often has long delays because of the fact it is at capacity, as an LCC you'd want to turn around your plane as quickly as possible - doesnt work.

Like at LHR, I dont think we will ever see LCCs at FRA, or not for many years

regards
A


User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 2, posted (9 years 8 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 1790 times:

Hi Atamdji,

first of all - welcome to a.net...

Thanks for your reply - out of curiosity: you write "FRA offers it to LH before others find out" - do you know this for a fact, or do you only suspect this? Not that I would really be surprised, but wouldn't this open up quite some chances for complaints (incl. legal action) by other carriers?

As for your points b and c - fully agree about those, and while b won't improve, don't you think that the extra runway (again, if it's ever really built) would improve the capacity and delay problems?

Regards,
Frank



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineHirnie From Germany, joined May 2004, 593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (9 years 8 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1771 times:

Regarding the new Rwy:
If the RWY will be built in the north-west of the airport the improvement will last only some years. It`s like "Startbahn West" only a compromise (only landing instead of only departing). So capacity might be at its edge again before any LCC jumps in...

I don`t see any LCCs in FRA in the mid future. Atamdji mentioned why.


User currently offlineLevent From France, joined Sep 2004, 1718 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (9 years 8 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1737 times:

Another airline that´s similar to Air Berlin would be Condor; they for example operate direct flights from FRA to VLC with fares starting from 29 euros.

User currently offlineGKirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24904 posts, RR: 56
Reply 5, posted (9 years 8 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1729 times:

Ryanair to Frankfurt Hahn  Innocent  Big thumbs up


When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineDelta777Jet From Germany, joined Jun 2000, 1247 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (9 years 8 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1682 times:

Hi There GEXX - Germania Express flies into Berlin from Frankfurt with B-737-300 Aircrafts for €88 incl. Tax!!!!

It`s the only real Low Cost Carrier in Frankfurt!!!!



Fly easyJet
User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 7, posted (9 years 8 months 19 hours ago) and read 1648 times:

Levent, Delta777Jet, thanks for those two - I hadn't thought of them...

Unfortunately, GEXX only offers that one route to Berlin, and they don't even have a single flight on Saturdays on this route... and Condor doesn't offer any city destinations, only the "normal" holiday destinations that they fly to...

GKirk - show me a way to get from my house to Hahn in the 30 minutes (by public transport) that I need to the airport here in the city, and for the same price (included in the monthly ticket I buy for the trains and busses anyhow) - and I'm interested...  Big grin

I was thinking more along the lines of what HLX offers in HAJ/CGN or what 4U offers in CGN - but I guess that FRA simply isn't "underserved" enough (I don't think anyone would ever really use the word "underserved" for Frankfurt's airport - I use it here in the sense of "underserved by airlines offering low fares").

I guess I'll just have to wait for trying out an LCC until I visit my parents in HAJ again... and I guess I'll just go on using travel industry discounts offered by regular airlines for my flights...

Regards,
Frank



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineMrNiji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (9 years 8 months 19 hours ago) and read 1640 times:

Hi Frank, will email you soon and write trip rep.. keep eyes open  Big grin

Thanks for your reply - out of curiosity: you write "FRA offers it to LH before others find out" - do you know this for a fact, or do you only suspect this?

FraPort is actually happy allocating slots from the under capacity operated T2.. no idea where your information is from  Confused No offense: welcome to a.net  Big grin


User currently offlineTriStar500 From Germany, joined Nov 1999, 4692 posts, RR: 43
Reply 9, posted (9 years 8 months 19 hours ago) and read 1636 times:

a) there are no attractive slots left in FRA, when one does come up - FRA offers it to LH before others find out

My company is frequently working for Fraport and I myself am a former Fraport employee - sorry, but what you are writing about the slot alloocation is utter bullshit and would totally open the door for huge lawsuits against Fraport.

b) landing fees are really horrendous, doesnt fit the LCC model at all

Again, this is no viable argument, because other airport with even higher charges have a decent LCC population - take VIE for example. They have the highest charges in all of Europe and guess which airline is the no. 2 carrier in terms of passengers? Air Berlin.

c) FRA often has long delays because of the fact it is at capacity, as an LCC you'd want to turn around your plane as quickly as possible - doesnt work.

I have to agree with this point.

BTW - welcome to a.net. Don't be put off by my criticism, it is just very important to check some facts if making broad assumptions.  Smile



Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 10, posted (9 years 8 months 19 hours ago) and read 1629 times:

TriStar500, thanks - I had thought (and written) that I was... well... curious about the idea of FRAport offering slots to LH before anyone else - so my assumption in that part was right.

As for the landing fees... how could I forget VIE? I go there often enough, and the taxes on my tickets are quite something...

To get back to the capacity problem: do you think the extra runway and terminal could change the situation, or do you agree with the others that have posted so far that the extra capacity will, most likely, just go to other carriers already in FRA?


MrNiji, I'll be sending an eMail your way as well in the coming days - just didn't get around to it yet...


Regards,
Frank



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineAtamdji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 8 months 18 hours ago) and read 1606 times:

Folks,

maybe my wording was a bit harsh, however there is a lack of ATTRACTIVE slots in FRA, which is the main reason why 30% of LH's intercontinental traffic now goes out of Munich. (LH would prefer a one hub operation - its cheaper) LH is also Fraport's biggest customer and they have a tight relationship, plus Fraport dislikes every intercont flight that goes to AND OLD: Munich - Riem (MUC / EDDM) (closed), Germany">MUC, like the BKK-SGN/KUL flights this winter. No I dont think Fraport formally offers slots to LH before others, but because of their longstanding relationship LH is in a position to find out very early, sorry if my first post was misleading

Another factor, Fraport own FRA AND HAHN, and if you're an LCC that wants to fly to Hahn, Fraport recommends you go to Hahn, because they want to position Hahn as a LCC and Cargo hub (against CGN btw)

Good point about VIE

In summary: I think it is the combination of cost, risk of delays, Hahn nearby and probably a fear of LH (remember dba tried to fly FRA in the nineties) that keeps LCC numbers low in FRA

cheers
A


User currently offlineJoFMO From Germany, joined Jul 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (9 years 8 months 13 hours ago) and read 1530 times:

Today FRA has a capacity of 80 to 81 flights per hour, depending on the time of the day. The new rumway shall bring this number to 120. That's a big increase and it will need some time to increase flights that much.

Does anyone from inside Fraport if there are still ideas for the new south terminal? It seems to have a lower priority than the new runway, but are there already ideas which airlines should use it and when it will be inaugurated. I would recommand to integrate T2 and T1 and give them all to Star while everybody else should go to T3.


User currently offlineZSSNC From Germany, joined Feb 2003, 428 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (9 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 1426 times:

Fraport doesn't allocate airport slots. Responsible for the allocation of airport slots for coordinated airports in Germany is the Airport Coordinator. The Airport Coordinator is accountable to the Federal Ministry of Transport. The slot allocation is done in accordance with German and EU law.

The procedure for allocating airport slots at coordinated airports in the EU is as follows:

1) airlines that have a specific airport slot can keep it in the next coordination period as to ensure a consistency in timetables (so-called grandfather rights) under the precondition that they've used it for at least 80 % of the past coordination period (use it or lose it rule).

2) after step one all available slots are put into a slot pool. Out of the slot pool 50 % of the airport slots are allocated to new entrants to the airport (i.e. airlines that have less than four airport slots a day at the airport or less than 3 % of all existing airport slots for the traffic day at the airport).

Airlines can swap airport slots among eachother. However, this has to be approved by the Airport Coordinator and the swapping must be done on a non-profit basis.

ZSSNC



Airbus A340-600 - the longest temptation in the sky
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