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WestJet Having A Tough In Montreal And Ottawa  
User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4999 posts, RR: 51
Posted (10 years 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3857 times:

A revised WestJet schedule shows some significant scaling down of services offered to Montreal and Ottawa.

YUL before:

YYC 1
YVR 2
YYZ 7
YQM 1
YHZ 1
YWG 1 13 daily

YUL after:

YYC 1
YVR 1
YYZ 4
YWG 1 7 daily

YOW before:

YYC 1
YVR 1
YWG 1
YYZ 7
YEG 1 12 daily

YOW after:

YYC 2
YVR 1
YWG 1
YYZ 4
YEG 0 8 daily

Not good news for these guys.





47 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12148 posts, RR: 49
Reply 1, posted (10 years 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3813 times:
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Would this be seasonal as demand drops during the winter season.


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6784 posts, RR: 17
Reply 2, posted (10 years 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3809 times:

How saturated are the Canadian-Canadian markets?


Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4999 posts, RR: 51
Reply 3, posted (10 years 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3806 times:

This is also reflected in the summer schedule  Smile

Pretty grim


User currently offlineSlawko From Canada, joined May 1999, 3799 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (10 years 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3779 times:

HAHA Funny how you put a happy face next to the Pretty Grim line  Big grin

I'm just curious if those YYC, YWG, YVR, and YEG flights are non stop or VIA YZ??

Eitherway it's a sign that they underestimated demand, and the capabilities of their competition. But if the change improves their business and lets them use those aircraft on other more profitable routes then all the power to them...



"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4999 posts, RR: 51
Reply 5, posted (10 years 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3765 times:

Slawko,

If WestJet can succeed on big transcon markets like Montreal-Vancouver, how will they make money on Toronto-Kelowna?



User currently offlineSlawko From Canada, joined May 1999, 3799 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (10 years 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3760 times:

I dunno mark....but Clive does!!! He knows all, dont you know that??? HAHA  Big grin Dont worry buddy I'm with ya, just didnt want the flame war to start quite so early in the thread....


"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
User currently offlineConnector4you From Canada, joined May 2001, 933 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (10 years 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3747 times:

Maybe charging too much . . . ?!?

YVR-YYZ Return fare for January 2005 (two weeks):

WJ C$310 No meals
AC C$315 Meals served both ways



User currently offlineAC7E7 From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 666 posts, RR: 22
Reply 8, posted (10 years 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3740 times:

I think Clive is consulting Miss Cleo... Toronto-Kelowna in a 73G. If he makes money on it, all the power to him...



User currently offlineYhmfan From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 607 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (10 years 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3677 times:

I travel YYZ-YUL frequently. Just for fun I compared three airlines for a same day trip next Monday (December 6th)

Air Canada 19 flights a day with one way fares as low as $76 and $88

Jetsgo 11 flights a day with one way fares as low as $76 and $88

Westjet 6 flights a day with fares as low as $76.

I guess Westjet is not competing as well in the frequency department. If they cut it back to 4 flights a day thi is bad news indeed for Westjet.




If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you
User currently offlineCaptainGomes From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 6413 posts, RR: 55
Reply 10, posted (10 years 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3657 times:

My biggest concern with Westjet is whether or not they can maintain their growth rates. They are taking in a large amount of aircraft, and have been able to produce strong profits up until now. But things are changing, and surprisingly, they dropped out of the YYZ - LAX market very quickly.

Westjet has lots of money to play with at the present time, but what happens if they can't fill the seats on all the new aircraft coming into the fleet? Money will run out, that's what will happen.

Despite what people think about Air Canada, they have a good inflight product, with unbeatable frequencies and perks, and that will continue to draw in the business traveler. Also, there is Jetsgo which is the bargain basement alternative, and they have essentially convinced the traveling public that they are the cheapest way to get from here to there. Westjet is stuck between a rock and a hard place, and the public wont see it as the cheap alternative, and plus they don't offer enough to draw away passengers at the upper end from Air Canada.

Interesting situation indeed, but I don't think Westjet is in any imminent danger.



"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16335 posts, RR: 56
Reply 11, posted (10 years 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3629 times:

I wonder if Westjet is suffering from the same fate as CP? Ie, an unwillingness for Montrealers to support a Western-based carrier?

I'm not worried about Westjet. They are already arguably the most successful airline in Cdn history. They have a competent mgmt team (rare in Canada!) and good employee morale (also rare in Canada). WJ is also embarking on a massive transborder expansion which will fuel growth for years to come.

YYZ-LAX was perhaps a mistake as there are already 5 airlines in that market.

I do think that WJ will need a smaller aircraft than the 736 to effectively compete in many markets. Whether the CRJ-900 or EMB-175/190.






Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineAC7E7 From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 666 posts, RR: 22
Reply 12, posted (10 years 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3625 times:

I would have to agree with you CaptainGomes. They are by no means in any imminent danger, however, it is starting to become difficult as to where Westjet fits in all of this. Westjet just cannot match Air Canada on frequency. Business travelers want frequency, and are willing to pay for it. Both Air Canada and Westjet will have IFE at every seat. Both have shiny new planes. Air Canada will have a new fleet of regional aircraft that will allow it to serve smaller communities while still making money. Wesjet will be limited to where it will be able to fly profitably because of their larger aircraft.

Wesjet will have to invest in new regional aircraft if it wants to compete with AC. But then this leaves Westjet where? Not quite a LCC, not a no-frills carrier. A domestic-only CP that has brought down the prices in the marketplace. Unless it decided to go back to its roots, get out of the bigger cities and focus on the routes that made Westjet the success it had become. Then again, Air Canada will be flying smaller, lighter regional jets into those cities as well. Rock and a hard place indeed.



User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16335 posts, RR: 56
Reply 13, posted (10 years 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3600 times:

Let's remember that WJ has a fantastic credit rating. It will be able to procure new aircraft at much better financing rates than even the new AC, which will keep its lease costs below AC. Combined with continued lower unit costs than AC, the future for WJ is bright. IMO.


Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4999 posts, RR: 51
Reply 14, posted (10 years 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3581 times:

"unwillingness for Montrealers to support a Western-based carrier"

-Neil.. dont start with the excuses bud.

WestJet is dying in Montreal and OTTAWA.



User currently offlineYVRtoYYZ From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 665 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (10 years 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3579 times:

I agree with the aforementioned statements re: WestJet not being able to have their own niche with which they could advertise and succeed in.

One subject that hasn't been referred to is the role of JetsGo in this. They are the ones driving the costs down and Air Canada and WestJet are forced to play catch-up, especially on the corridor route of YUL-YYZ, YVR-YEG/YYC.

Example:

JetsGo YUL-YYZ mid-Dec - $53
Air Canada YUL-YYZ (same dates) - range from $149-$76 (prices dropped to $53 after JetsGo)
WestJet YUL-YYZ (same date) - $88 (dropped to $53 after JetsGo and Air Canada)

The real drive in the Canadian aviation market is no longer price as all the carriers have the same price; its more a matter of service and airline loyalty and availability. An example of this is the above route (YUL-YYZ) I have booked AC YUL-YYZ and WS YYZ-YUL not because of price differences, but the schedule suited me better. And the loss to me - none because I get both Aeroplan and AirMiles accumulated. However, flying TransCon (ie. YUL-YVR), I have noticed that AC has had the better fares ($89 each way June/July 2004) plus the bonus of aircraft choice, meals and movie; but again all those are extras and price is the determining factor.

So where does WS fit in? They certainly will have to offer more than personal IFE (since AC is getting/has that); Buy-On-Board (since AC offers meals, even to Tango fares); aircraft choice (B737-700 or B736 for WS) or various narrow and widebodies for AC; schedule (AC has advantage on the YUL-YYZ corridor). Their fares are no longer 'cheap' relative to other airlines, because all the airlines are the same.

While I support both WS and AC, it will be interesting how these two airlines compete with each other and what 'extras' passengers can expect in order to lure more business.

-YVRtoYYZ


User currently offlineYukimizake From Japan, joined Mar 2004, 529 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (10 years 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3567 times:

If AC can maintain sustained profitability on their international routes and also succeed with the smaller lighter regional jets when they arrive next year it will be interesting to see if they then engage in predatory pricing on those routes they compete with WJ. However, sustained profitability is still a pretty big if.


'Opfer müssen gebracht werden (Sacrifices must be made)' - Otto Lilienthal
User currently offlineAC7E7 From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 666 posts, RR: 22
Reply 17, posted (10 years 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3558 times:

That may be true, however, fantastic credit ratings don't fill planes. Bringing on an additional aircraft type would require a large investment both in training costs as well as acquisition costs. Air Canada will still do well despite the higher operating costs thanks to high yielding international routes, as well as unmatched frequencies and international connections through Star Alliance partners.

I think WJ does have a bright future ahead, no doubt about it. However, as they expand from a domestic carrier serving smaller communities, to a domestic carrier serving most major cities, to a transborder carrier, then eventually an international carrier, its costs will rise very high.

Let's note the rise and fall of Wardair and Canada 3000, two companies that were very good at providing a specific product, until they wanted to fly directly against Air Canada.


User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4999 posts, RR: 51
Reply 18, posted (10 years 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3533 times:

What is predatory pricing?

Because matching one's fare is competitive.. not predatory!

Just a friendly reminder before this debate goes any further  Smile



User currently offlineYVRtoYYZ From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 665 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (10 years 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3532 times:

Do Ontarians and Quebecors not sleep?

User currently offlineYukimizake From Japan, joined Mar 2004, 529 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (10 years 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3520 times:

Predatory pricing to temporarily offer a price so low that you lose money on it. The intent is to force your competitor to do the same and drive them out of that particular market.


'Opfer müssen gebracht werden (Sacrifices must be made)' - Otto Lilienthal
User currently offlineAC7E7 From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 666 posts, RR: 22
Reply 21, posted (10 years 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3517 times:


Don't even get me started on predatory pricing........  Angry


User currently offlineConnector4you From Canada, joined May 2001, 933 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (10 years 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3507 times:

I would agree that WestJet doesn't have a niche market as we speak. They rather seem to be the choice of all disgruntled AC passengers.

At least JetsGo carries people that otherwise could not afford flying at all. And there are a lot of them out there !







User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4999 posts, RR: 51
Reply 23, posted (10 years 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3506 times:

I tend to disagree..

In a free market, all competitors have the right to offer a good and service essentially at any price.


If WestJet/Leblanc Air or anybody else would like to offer a price, AC has every right to match it.

Although AC's unit costs are probably higher than WestJet, they are not so significantly higher than a low fare would be profitable for one, yet unprofitable for another.

Anybody have those CASM costs again for AC and WS?




User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16335 posts, RR: 56
Reply 24, posted (10 years 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3492 times:

WestJet is dying in Montreal and OTTAWA.

Maybe those markets are soft for all carriers.

Or maybe WJ was happy enough in YUL/YOW, but had more lucrative routes elsewhere.




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
25 AC7E7 : That's the problem though. Canada is a free market unless the government decides it wants to run it. The government won't get the hell out of the airl
26 YVRtoYYZ : At least JetsGo carries people that otherwise could not afford flying at all. But how many are being retained? While WS has a solid, long-term marketi
27 Airbus Lover : I think AC is once again gaining a foothold (and certainly loyalty) with the introduction of the Rapidair and Latitude Passes. Not to mention also the
28 YOW : WestJet is dying in Montreal and OTTAWA. In Ottawa's case, I wouldn't say they're dying here, far from it. It's more the problem of too much new capac
29 AC_B777 : I'll go further east to YYT and say that things are not as expected with WS here. They have dropped frequency to YYT as well. I can't remember the exa
30 YVRtoYYZ : People out east will not stay loyal to WS if they are only flying in here a couple of times a week. If people can't fly on the days they want to, then
31 Accargo : I believe that WJ's expectations were too high for it's YUL and YOW flights have been and has decided to pull back a bit and shift those acft to more
32 Yukimizake : With WS failing to make an impact in Eastern Canada maybe they should, as their name suggests, focus on being a regional carrier out west. Instead of
33 Ywg777 : first off Westjet added a 7th flight between YWG-YOW to make it 1 flight a day. Second off Westjet never did have 2x YWG-YUL. It was always 1 daily fl
34 AC_B777 : Western and eastern Canada are obviously two different operating environments. There is more population base in BC and AB than in NS, NB, NL and PEI a
35 FLYYUL : Shawn, Please put on your glasses.. it says 1 DAILY YUL-YWG!
36 Robsawatsky : The competition has really expanded too widely for AC to use predatory pricing tactics. Losing money as a competitive edge isn't really a good long-te
37 CanadaEH : My apologies if I missed anything in this thread, but there was a lot to read. If WestJet/Leblanc Air or anybody else would like to offer a price, AC
38 Tennisace : The fact that Westjet does appear to be adjusting seasonal frequencies would indicate that they ARE feeling the competition in those particular cities
39 Connector4you : Yukimizake Instead of trying to compete with AC, SG and C6 on low margin routes in Eastern Canada they would be better off using their fleet on transb
40 YOW : They should keep doing the YUL, YYZ, YWG,YOW with convenient frequencies to allow international connections trough YYZ and YUL. What's the point witho
41 Connector4you : Interline agreements similar to the one with Cathay out of Vancouver would be highly desirable out of YYZ/YUL and . . . maybe extended to airlines ser
42 Sebring : Interline agreements may be desirable, but they are not without costs. You have to physically interline baggage, issue forward boarding passes, etc.,
43 Yukimizake : So back to the original post, thats 10 fewer flights per day into YUL and YOW. Does anyone know how WS are utilizing these freed up planes?. Which cit
44 Accargo : I've heard that there is a huge increase in charter flying over this winter for WJ. (Transat, Sunquest etc.)
45 Frmyqr : yqr-yyc has an extra freq. Starting jan.10.
46 Yegbey01 : Gentlemen, I guess what it comes down to at the end, aside price , is frequencies. How does WJ really think they would be able to capture the business
47 Post contains images 320tech : I'm surprised no one has speculated so far on the role of Westjet's spy scandal. It seems pretty plain from media reports so far that Westjet adapted
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