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Pan Am @ MIA In The 80s-an Inconsistent Hub  
User currently offlineKkfla737 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1033 posts, RR: 1
Posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 5224 times:

I've been going through some old Pan Am timetables in the past few weeks and have found that after the National purchase Miami routes often were flown, then discontinued and then started again several years later. This included service to many domestic destinations. They did have more flights to more destinations at the very end, but many were merely the restarting or previously suspended service.

Some highlights:

Spring 1980 timetable

Miami nonstop to:

Amsterdam, Barbados, Caracas, Fort Lauderdale, Fort Myers, Frankfurt, Guatemala City, Houston, London, Los Angeles, Madrid, Maracaibo, New Orleans, Newark, New York- JFK, New York-LGA, Orlando, Panama City, Paris, Port Au Prince, Port of Spain, Rio, San Fransisco, San Jose, CR, San Juan, Sarasota, Tampa, Washington-DCA, West Palm Beach, Zurich

April 1983:

Miami nonstop to:

Antigua, Barbados, Caracas, DFW, Guatemala City, Houston, London, Los Angeles, Maracaibo, Mexico City, New Orleans, Newark, New York- JFK, New York-LGA, Orlando, Panama City, Port of Spain, Rio, San Juan, Santiago, Tampa, Washington-DCA

June 1988

Atlanta, Barbados, Buenos Aires Caracas, Charlotte, Chicago, Detroit, DFW, Freeport, Frankfurt, Grand Turk, Guatemala City, Guayaquil, Houston, London, Los Angeles, Maracaibo, Mexico City, New York- JFK, New York-LGA, Orlando, Panama City, Paris, Port Au Prince, Provideniciales, Rio, St Criox, Santo Domingo, Tampa, Washington-DCA, Washington-IAD

May 1991

Atlanta, Baltimore, Barbados, Belize City, Boston, Buenos Aires, Cancun, Caracas, Cleveland, Detroit, Freeport, Frankfurt, Grand Cayman, Grand Turk, Guatemala City, Hartford, Houston, Jacksonville, Kingston, London, Los Angeles, Managua, Maracaibo, Mexico City, mONTEGO bAY, Monterrey, Nassau, New Orleans, Newark, New York- JFK, New York-LGA, Orlando, Panama City, Paris, Port Au Prince, Port of Spain, Provideniciales, Puerto Plata, Recife, Rio, St Criox, St Maarteen, St Thomas, San Jose, San Juan, San Salvador, Santiago, Santo Domingo, Sao Paulo Tampa, Washington-DCA





36 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKkfla737 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1033 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 5197 times:

I should also note that UA in 1994 continued to fly to many of the Central American and Carribean destinations that PA flew too. I was under the impression that UA had never flown from Miami to many of those places (Including San Jose, CR, San Juan, Port of Spain and Grand Cayman)

User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 2, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 5162 times:
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That's a reflection of PA's struggle with its domestic system after the NA acquisition. The 1980 schedule includes the set of routes directly inherited from NA, which were tinkered with and downsized in the early '80s. After the Pacific route sale to UA in 1985, the concentration was on transatlantic flying in 1986. MIA started building up again in the 1988-89 period around the time of Tom Plaskett's arrival and of course, by the end in 1991, after the sale of LHR to UA and transatlantic to DL, the focus of PA was on Latin America with MIA as the primary gateway.

User currently offlinePalmjet From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2001, 1223 posts, RR: 17
Reply 3, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 5137 times:

Also this inconsistency can be explained by management changes throughout the period and the rise of intense competition on many routes out of MIA generally - such as from Air Florida.

Ironcially, Ed Acker, who was instrumental in Air Florida's meteoric rise in the early 1980s, went to work for Pan Am to try and help Pan Am counter the competition that was having a significant impact on PA's domestic ops out of MIA.



Eastern - Number One To The Sun
User currently offlineKkfla737 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1033 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 5120 times:

PA also at one time flew MIA-MCI, MIA-MEM, MIA-RDU and MIA-CVG. I'm just not sure when- it wasn't in any of my timetables but I distinctly remember those brief domestic feeder routes maybe in the late 80s.

User currently offlineClipper002 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 679 posts, RR: 13
Reply 5, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 5084 times:

You had to be down there to feel it. After every new CEO, we would get a brand new route structure. None of these new cities were really evaluated before service commenced, it was usually some exec saying "Why don't we fly there?" and the next thing you knew there we were in the middle of nowhere with pathetic load factors. Compare that to the pre-merger schedule of the late 70's where you could actually tell a planes' destination by the flight numbers assigned and memorize it for 6 months at a time. All of these schedule changes probably let a fair number of my former co-workers adapt very easily into the charter market that we are in now. We were literally flying by the seat of our pants for the last 11 years. It was one heck of a run while it lasted though. I'm only glad I was on the train for the ride.

Ed



Ed
User currently offlineKkfla737 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1033 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 4990 times:

It seems like Eastern, while consistent with Miami flights was equally inconsistent with their destinations from other Florida "focus cities" in TPA, FLL, and MCO. Every Eastern timetable I have between 1979 and 1989 has a different set of destinations, some which make no sense at all in the midwest and northeast from each of these three airports. Delta on the other hand seemed to consistently serve the same destinations from the three mentioned airports, even when facing intense third party competetion from NW @ TPA and various airlines including Republic, Piedmont, Florida Express and Braniff @ MCO.

User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 4964 times:

In the case of MSY, Pan Am started flights to the city in the 40's if i'm not mistaken, and it continued through to the 1970's with a twice-weekly 707 service to Merida (and maybe Guatemala City?) continuing to other Central American cities. That route got cancelled around the time when PA bought out NA. NA used MSY as a fairly large "focus city" and PA kept most of it running until around 1984, when they dismantled it, along with most of the other former NA routes. PA left MSY in 1985 and returned again in late 1988, operating all the way through to 12/4/91.

User currently offlineMxCtrlr From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 2485 posts, RR: 35
Reply 8, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 4923 times:

What you have to remember is PA cared nothing about strictly domestic passengers - that is passengers that flew PA but didn't continue on one of the 747's trans-Pacific or trans-Atlantic. Many of the management decisions were based solely on "worm charts" of passenger load data - If the worm track showed no or insignificant upward trends, the flight was cancelled due to "no growth" (no one ever looked into WHY there was no growth)!

PA also took over National with a major chip on their shoulder in that no one from another airline could possibly know anything more than anyone at PA, so the day-to-day brain trust from NAL, was lost through early retirement (similar to what happened to DL right after they took over the European routes from PA, only DL corrected their mistakes early on, whereas PA did not).

That QH was giving PA competition - highly unlikely. QH's operation was not geared towards the same pax that flew PA. QH and PA were worlds apart (I worked for BOTH of them at different times - no competition there)!

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.  Smokin cool



DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
User currently offlineKkfla737 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1033 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4855 times:

MSY is a perfect example of what Pan Am did with domestic destinations. They often quickly started and then discontinued service, then suspended service to the destination, only to restart service a few years later to the very same places (JFK and/or MIA) that they had earlier deemed failures.

User currently offlineKkfla737 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1033 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4851 times:

If IRC PA also flipped back and forth between IAH and Hobby in the late 80s.

User currently offlineHlywdCatft From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 5321 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4801 times:

I thought Delta got a lot of Pan Am's old European routes, how come Delta never had a hub at Miami?

User currently offlineKkfla737 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1033 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4778 times:

The Miami hub was split up effectively between UA and DL. I remember reading in the book Hard Landing that Stephen Wolf and Ron Allen fought over Miami routes and assets. They were attempting to make a joint bid for PA, and the disagreement over Miami foiled the bid and thus Pan Am was sold off in pieces. Delta would have been in abetter position to compete had they inherited PAs MIA operation. Delta had traditionally been EAs largest domestic competitor out of South Florida and during much of the 80s had over 25 flights a day out of Miami because of an extensive point to point network. DL also consistently had 30+ flights a day out of FLL. They were in a much stronger position in the South Florida market at the time of EA and PAs collapse than either AA or UA. Delta did fly for many years Pan Am's routes from Miami to Frankfurt and London but never did get any Latin American or Carribean routes out of the old Pan Am. UA inherited those and had a tough time making it work long term.

User currently offlineClipper002 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 679 posts, RR: 13
Reply 13, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4743 times:

What actually happened was that DL was buying out the Pan Am European network and then financing Pan Am II which would have been based at MIA and operate strictly within the Caribbean. When DL finally realized that it was costing a small fortune just to keep Pan Am II afloat any longer, they pulled the plug on the deal and Pan Am filed for Chapter 7 bankruptcy the next day. I still have my original signed contract to be a part of the new Pan Am II. It was doomed from the beginning because by now AA had secured a strong foothold on the entire Caribbean operating A-300-600's compared to our old A-300-B4's and 727's.

All of my colleagues at JFK, where I worked for 21 years, were offered positions at DL, while all of us down in MIA couldn't even get a resume looked at.

Ed



Ed
User currently offlineDB777 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 885 posts, RR: 43
Reply 14, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4686 times:
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Kkfla737: "Delta did fly for many years Pan Am's routes from Miami to Frankfurt and London but never did get any Latin American or Carribean (sic) routes out of the old Pan Am."

Where did you get that information from? I don't remember Delta flying international anything into MIA except for maybe very brief periods and a few charters from time to time. It certainly wasn't many months let alone years as you state.

United operated the London route very briefly after Pan Am's demise but somehow Delta got the route authority. Didn't Delta opt to code-share on Virgin's flights to London instead of operating their own equipment? They must have run their FRA flights via ATL because they weren't non-stop to/from MIA.

Don



Photographing aircraft since the Earth was flat and on Airliners.net since #338
User currently offlineRyanair From United Kingdom, joined Jul 1999, 654 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4622 times:

DL flew LGW-MIA for a few years and FRA. It was part of the PA TransAtlantic Deal. PA kept it's MIA-CDG route authority right up until the very end. It was their only remaining trans-atlantic route.

DL dropped the MIA routes in 1994 or 95 I seem to recall. It was at the same time they returned the former Pan Am A310's and closed the FRA hub.

It's not just the MIA hub that PA messed around with in the 1980's. The list of hopeless decisions is a mile long. PA opened stations, closed stations, re-opened stations, cancelled flights, re-instated flights, opened routes, changed routing but maintained flights, closed routes, re-opened routes etc etc etc etc at an incredible pace. It cost a fortune to do. Planning was inconsistant, confusing and bemusing. Lost of short term crisis measures to address (unsuccessfully) long term issues. Very sad......


User currently offlineDB777 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 885 posts, RR: 43
Reply 16, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 4580 times:
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Thanks to a friend with old timetables here are the Delta flights in question from MIA

April 1, 1992 timetable:
MIA-LGW 1825-0810 flt 98 L1011-500
MIA-FRA 1800-0915 flt 116 L1011-500

However I don't think Delta operated their own equipment very long on the LGW route. I know they entered into a blocked seat alliance with Virgin for the LGW route and believe they made the FRA flight into a connection flight at ATL. My friend is researching subsequent timetables in 92, 93 to try and see when the services ended.

Now - does anyone remember how American ended up with LHR to/from MIA after Pan Am died? Delta bought the routes from Pan Am but ended up with LGW instead of LHR. Previous to PA's death, AA only had LGW service from MIA.

If Delta and Virgin ended their codeshare alliance in 1997, doesn't that mean there is an unused route authority for a US carrier in the market (LGW-MIA) or was the authority transferred to another city?

Don



Photographing aircraft since the Earth was flat and on Airliners.net since #338
User currently offlineKkfla737 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1033 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4560 times:

The story of AA getting the MIA-LHR route is very confusing. The route was originally MIA-LGW and was flown by Air Florida. When Air Florida went under Eastern flew the route. After Frank Lorenzo bought EA, the route was transferred to Continental. When EA sold the Latin American routes to AA in 1990, they included this route. AA then flew MIA-LGW and transferred the route to LHR after the 1991 purchase of TWA's Heathrow authority. UA wanted LHR-MIA as well and flew it for a short time on behalf of Pan Am (I think April-July 1991) after the UA Heathrow purchase from Pan Am. However, per the agreement with Pan Am, the route reverted to PA in July of 1991 as a routing to LGW since PA no longer had Heathrow authority and then was sold to DL along with the other Atlantic routes.

User currently offlineRogerThat From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 566 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4522 times:

Was MIA - LHR an old National route? I think I read on here that this was the last US to Heathrow route before Bermuda II.

User currently offlineClipper002 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 679 posts, RR: 13
Reply 19, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4519 times:

Don,
How come we were there when most of this took place and can't remember half of it?

Ed



Ed
User currently offlineDB777 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 885 posts, RR: 43
Reply 20, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4505 times:
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Yes MIA-LHR was an old National route for many years before Pan Am bought National in 1980 and kept the route as a result of the purchase. It started in the early 70's as I recall and I was fortunate to fly it both directions in F on a DC10 in December in the mid-70's. I distinctly remember that there were only a few people in F going to LHR and the F/A gave me a mountain of outstanding caviar as an appetizer when she found out that I liked it.

Ed: you sure hit the memory problem right on the head and the only consolation is that we can say that we have forgotten more about aviation at MIA than most of these posters will ever know.  Smile I called my successor today and he told me we parked the two Delta flights right outside my office in the Satellite but that the flights didn't last very long at all according to his recollection. He agrees with me that UA operated the MIA-LHR for a very short period after PA died and that Delta switched from operating their own flight to a seat block alliance with Virgin Atlantic on the LGW run and to an ATL connection for the FRA run. He's having the matter researched in the old gate logs to come up with dates DL stopped international service out of MIA. I would have called DL's long-time MIA manager, retired since the mid 90's, but he's not in good health and I'm afraid his memory is probably worse than ours.

Don



Photographing aircraft since the Earth was flat and on Airliners.net since #338
User currently offlineClipper002 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 679 posts, RR: 13
Reply 21, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4462 times:

Don,
It amazes me how many of these posters are "experts" on what took place long before they were even aware that air travel really existed. I sit back and laugh at half of these supposed expert posts that have no factual basis whatsoever. It's a shame that people have to make up facts to justify their posts on this forum.

Ed



Ed
User currently offlineMxCtrlr From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 2485 posts, RR: 35
Reply 22, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4435 times:

How come we were there when most of this took place and can't remember half of it?

Age does that to dinosaurs like myself and Don (not sure if I know you, Ed, so I'll reserve judgement on your "dinosaur status").

It started in the early 70's as I recall and I was fortunate to fly it both directions in F on a DC10 in December in the mid-70's.

Actually Don, I think NA started the LHR route prior to the "1969 fiasco" (18-month-long wildcat walkout by the Mechanic's union, for those who don't know) and they operated it with a DC-8-62 (I believe it was a -62) which sat on the ramp at LHR for the entire length of the '69 strike because the fuelers at LHR refused to fuel an aircraft operated by a company with a union on strike.

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.  Smokin cool



DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
User currently offlineMxCtrlr From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 2485 posts, RR: 35
Reply 23, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4434 times:

Clipper002, were you always PA or did you come over from NAL? You name sounds really familiar...

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.  Smokin cool



DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
User currently offlineDB777 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 885 posts, RR: 43
Reply 24, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4424 times:
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I believe Ed's an older dinosaur than you and me, MxCtrlr, but only a year or two older than me.

Yeah, I wondered about the LHR route startup year after I sent that and you're right. I was on active duty until mid-1970 and not in the Miami area so I missed out on a couple of years of history. It would have to have been an DC8-60 something because the 747s and DC10's hadn't been delivered yet. We went down to MIA to see their first 747 arrive one evening after I moved back to the Miami area and walked onboard it from the ramp along with a bunch of their employees. No security, no ID's and no one said anything.

Don



Photographing aircraft since the Earth was flat and on Airliners.net since #338
25 Post contains links and images MxCtrlr : Don, Checking the database, here's N109RD, an Airlift DC-8-54, in NAL colors on the ground at LHR in 1972...That had to be close to the end of the '69
26 Clipper002 : MxCtrlr, Started with Pan Am at JFK in 64 and transferred to MIA in 85. Had many, many good friends with NAL. Quite a different group of individuals t
27 Kkfla737 : according to the June 1, 1994 DL timetable DL had discontinued MIA-FRA, offering connections instead via Orlando and ATlanta, but still flew MIA-LGW n
28 Clipper002 : Kkfla737, That's great information. Thanks for all of the facts. You just picked up respected #151. Rgds, Ed
29 DB777 : According to my buddy with all of the old timetables, DL ended FRA nonstop service from MIA on 10/30/93. They ended LGW non-stop service on 9/11/94, s
30 Kkfla737 : You're right on the Canada flights. DL flew from both FLL and MIA to YUL and Eastern did not- they had to route flights from both FLL and MIA through
31 Kkfla737 : Another question- regarding the NA purchase, why didn't Pan Am continue flying the routes inherited from NA with the exception of Paris? Was it becaus
32 Clipper002 : I was stuck at JFK during that time frame and all I could do to manage what we had going let alone other parts of the system. Initially we did keep a
33 Panamair : "Also, I noticed in a PA timetable from Summer 1983 that Pan Am was flying IAH-LGW which I do not believe NA ever flew, and they had cut almost all of
34 Clipper002 : Panamair, That should have been an even flight number. Odd numbers were for West and Southbound flights. I'll try and dig something up when I get home
35 Rhsnyc : I was a LHR based Pan Am Flight Attendant. I very well remember flying the LHR-MIA trip. I believe it was flight 91/92 (same flight number as National
36 Panamair : MIA-LHR was PA98 and LHR-MIA PA99 using the 747. I flew on PA99 in 1991 after it had moved to LGW - was actually going from LON to NYC but due to my l
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