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Another Asian Carrier Signs For 5 A380.  
User currently offlineGreaser From Bahamas, joined Jan 2004, 1101 posts, RR: 4
Posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 11144 times:

John Leahy has announced that an 'unidentified' Asian carrier has signed for 5 A380-800s, with China Southern Airlines and Air China as the main suspects.
Apparently they are trying to snap up production slots for delivery before the 2008 Olympics


Now you're really flying
72 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLehpron From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 7028 posts, RR: 21
Reply 1, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 11021 times:

If they feel they will need them for their own selves...

US airlines don't seem to, people like frequency, I'm sure that will change at some point in the [distant] future.



The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
User currently offlineSpacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3610 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 10853 times:

US airlines don't seem to, people like frequency, I'm sure that will change at some point in the [distant] future.

People like frequency in Asia too, it's something of a myth that there's this big cultural difference. ANA flies something like 21 flights per day between Tokyo and Osaka, for example - on 777's and 747's!

There's just so much demand that even with frequent flights, large airplanes are still required on some routes.

Of course, some airports are also slot-limited, but I don't know if this is true of Beijing (since the Olympics were mentioned). I would think capacity would be an issue in any city with that kind of population, though.

And I can understand wanting to be ready for the Olympics; they'd no doubt be getting a lot of new fliers and not only would the extra capacity be necessary, but it'd be a prestige thing too, flying this brand new plane that also happens to be the largest in the world.



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 10743 times:

I cannot hear that ridiculous "frequency" argument anymore. Only totally uninformed people without any clue of aviation deny that the A380 will be needed in the future. Are some people not ABLE to realize the problems of congested airports like Narita, London/LHR, Frankfurt, just to name a few? Strange that these "frequency" preachers mostly come from the U.S...I suggest for some of these guys to leave their beloved ERJ heavens in mid-Texas only once and check out what's going on in the world...something great in the Midwest does not work anywhere else. But some will never get that in their heads.

Certainly Chinese airlines need the A380, they grow like crazy and more and more people in China will be in a position to afford flying.
1. Check current timetables of Chinese airlines
2. Check their fleet development over the past years
3. Check passenger growth figures within Asia (especially China)

Then I recommend the following: continue to talk trash or just shut up.


Regards
Udo


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 10706 times:

that ridiculous "frequency" argument anymore.

...you mean that some one which history's proven time and time again?




Strange that these "frequency" preachers mostly come from the U.S

...you mean the world's largest and most advanced (for better or worse) aviation market?


User currently offlineJasepl From India, joined Jul 2004, 3582 posts, RR: 39
Reply 5, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 10681 times:

you mean the world's largest and most advanced (for better or worse) aviation market?

Be that as it may, something tells me if Boeing or Lockheed had come up with something the size of a 380 (or even something bigger) many of the same people currrently bashing it would be singing its praises!  Big grin


User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 10603 times:

Hi Fred,

As usual you stick to two-sentence-replies…well, no surprise.


Of course frequencies have gone up and will always go up, I do not deny that. I only criticise the “frequency only”-view. Certainly airlines would always add frequencies instead off larger jets…in many markets they are free to do so. In some very important markets they cannot. Simple as that. Narita, Heathrow and Frankfurt are history-proven congested airports and nothing will change there in the coming years.

The U.S. is the largest aviation market but in terms of growth Asia and especially China will send it to second place in the not very distant future. However, even today many things work different in the U.S. and you know that very well. I was talking about thousands of regional jet which find a perfect playing ground in the U.S., but not in other parts of the world. Adding frequencies on Kansas City-Austin markets (or whatever) is easier than Narita-London/LHR. That’s what I meant and I don’t want to tell it again.

And btw, “the world’s largest and most advanced” aviation market hasn’t had a significant importance for the history of the B747. Being dependant on U.S. airlines, the B747 would not have survived very long…and the same goes for the A380.



Regards
Udo


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 10452 times:

As usual you stick to two-sentence-replies…well, no surprise.

Indeed... I tend follow the K.I.S.(f)S. philosophy  Laugh out loud




and especially China will send it to second place in the not very distant future

No doubt China will get there eventually, but they've got a lonnnnnnng way to go. Growth is impressive, yes, but their market needs a much more fortified "foundation" inorder to sustain said growth (longterm) than it currently has.



You're going to see the same defragmentation in Europe that's currently in the USA... though the experience of having already seen what to expect may be counteracted by cultural/political barriers within the EU.

Asia's a different dynamic due to the terrain and lack of highways, but still, you'll see it there to a degree... just not nearly as much.


User currently offlineAerosol From Germany, joined Oct 2000, 556 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 10306 times:

Where do you want to put the frequency? There are only certain time frames where it makes sense to fly to Europe or to the US from Asia.


User currently offlineRussophile From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 10258 times:

Growth is impressive, yes, but their market needs a much more fortified "foundation" inorder to sustain said growth (longterm) than it currently has

1.2 billion people, and an ever increasing/expanding 'middle-class with disposable income', and additionally an expanding business environment. You can't ask for more of a 'fortified foundation' than this.  Insane


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 10206 times:

1.2 billion people

...how many of which regularly patronize an automobile, much less an aircraft?  Insane



an ever increasing/expanding 'middle-class with disposable income'

Still in many instances stifled by archaic international travel stipulations...




and additionally an expanding business environment

which only loops back to the original statement... great job  Laugh out loud


User currently offlineNa From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10654 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 10150 times:

The vastness and relative emptyness of the the major part of the USA doesn´t make the most advanced country in aviation a showcase for the world.

User currently offlineAerosol From Germany, joined Oct 2000, 556 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 10090 times:

And by the way: New Beijing airport to be world's biggest

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;sessionid=1OBXJE3SFLS5LQFIQMFSM54AVCBQ0JVC?xml=/news/2004/11/29/wbeij29.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/11/29/ixworld.html&secureRefresh=true&_requestid=18078


User currently offlineQantasclub From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 757 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 10043 times:


Sorry, but I'm totally with Udo on this one. How does a thread about a new chinese carrier ordering the A380 evolve into a justification thread for why US carriers haven't ordered any and the usual defence of "the world's largest and most advanced (for better or worse) aviation market?" Clearly a reflection of the level of insecurity and latent over-defensiveness on behalf of some here.

The frequency debate is crap and you all know it. US carriers are so 'advanced' and impressive that they are struggling to survive, let alone order new aircraft.

It makes sense for China to see A380s. If any of you have been to China at all recently, you will notice the very obvious and significant explosion in wealth creation and income for the new middle class. Sure, on an individual level, their personal wealth has a long way to go but within 10 years, China's GDP will outstrip the US...people are going to travel and there are alot of them!

The A380 will be a huge success. I can see no other solution to slot-restricted airports like LHR, NRT,SYD. The fact that US carriers can't afford the A380 is irrelevant to this post.





Long Haul is the only way to go
User currently offlineRussophile From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 9952 times:

...how many of which regularly patronize an automobile, much less an aircraft?

Probably about the same percentage of Americans who possess a passport which would require them to fly on anything larger than 737.

Additionally, you should find out a bit on what you talk about. The first freeway opened in China in 1993, and by 2002, China had some 19,000km of freeway, the second longest freeway system in the world. Not bad for a nation in which not many 'regularly patronise an automobile'.

Source: http://chineseculture.about.com/library/weekly/aa_freeway02a.htm

The fact is, China is growing at an exponential rate which would make all countries green with envy, and as such, their aviation industry is also growing at the same rate, and they will need such capacity into the future.


User currently offlinePyroGX41487 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 280 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 9910 times:

Its fairly obvious that American carriers AREN'T interested in passenger density on routes, just (as stated) frequency. Not to mention most of these guys aren't in the financial position to buy anything with a price tag like the A380.

AA? They just had that falling out with Airbus. The've got close to 1,000 planes already.
CO? I HIGHLY doubt it. They're Airbus fleet is kinda skimpy =/
DL? Definitly not.
UA? With all those 744s in the desert, I think not, batman!
B6? NO.


Add a few more to the list. The A380 doesn't readily fit into a struggling market, not to mention in fleets in which a 747 hasn't been in a while. The only US carrier WITH a 744 has already put some-large-two-digit-number of them in a desert along with countless 777s. These have the most passenger capacity (In UAL's fleet). At this moment, I can't see any U.S. carrier ordering a 380 any time in the next five to ten years.

Udo is right. Chinise figures are definitly more convincing. I mean, Boeing did kinda have to create the 744D for them, right?


User currently offlinePyroGX41487 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 280 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 9890 times:

Yeah... I hate how bloody elitist and stuck-up we Americans cane me x__x

User currently offlineN754PR From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 9888 times:

Americans dont know very much about Asia do they......

The only 744D's are in JAPAN.


User currently offlineRussophile From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 9836 times:

Pyro, just a small correction. Don't forget NW also has 744s.  Big grin


User currently offlineKEESJE From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 9687 times:


If I want from AMS to e.g. SEA I have one daily direct flight

If I accept 1 stop I have 8 alternatives via big HUB-HUB flights to DTW, MSP and MEM.

The full wide bodies flying those routes will lower my ticket price.

Superior Price & Flexibility

I guess who decides; You.....r boss.

Welcome to the real world.



User currently offlineHlywdCatft From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 5321 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 9259 times:

**""AA? They just had that falling out with Airbus. The've got close to 1,000 planes already.
CO? I HIGHLY doubt it. They're Airbus fleet is kinda skimpy =/
DL? Definitly not.
UA? With all those 744s in the desert, I think not, batman!
B6? NO. ""**

CO's Airbus fleet is kinda skimpy? Where have you been for at least the last 5 years? The A300s have been gone for a while

You left NW off of that list. IF any American carrier besides a cargo carrier bought the A380, it would be Northwest.


User currently offlineRT514 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 9031 times:

Nice posts, Udo.
Whether it is ignorance or denial is irrelevant. The fact is that China's enormous growth makes it a very interesting place to watch from an economic sense and it is poised to play an important role in global economics for years to come. Even with the skyrocketing value of the Euro, China's consumption has helped Europe (and various countries with suddenly higher valued currencies) to not experience a trade deficit, despite the disadvantage that would otherwise come with a higher currency. I never understood why so many around here were previously skeptical that Asian airlines other than SQ would buy the A380. The "frequency argument" and the "Asia is faithful to Boeing" mantras were getting really old, really fast.


Don't forget NW also has 744s.

Yes, and I firmly believe that the A380 will be wearing NW colors by the end of this decade.


User currently offlinePyroGX41487 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 280 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 8933 times:

I left NW off the list for that reason, dude =O

And yeah, the "skimpy" remark is sarcasm....


User currently offlineLifelinerOne From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 1917 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 8783 times:

how many of which regularly patronize an automobile, much less an aircraft?

For my company, China is one of the main spear points. Our car sales have been increasing with astronomic numbers in the last few years and we are building a new factory in cooperation with the Chinese. And we are not building the cheapest cars around...

Cheers!



Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8214 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 8711 times:

Like I always say, you can stick you head in the sand and go the way of McDonald Douglas, Eastern and TWA; or you can look up and be prepared to face the future.

And by the way "world's largest and most advanced aviation market". Ahahah, don't make me laugh. Largest market, I'll give you that considering the Asian market is not a single country. Most advanced? Absolutely not. From airports that resemble bus stations, to 30 year old DC-9's, and a slew of bankrupt airlines who can't affort to server stale pretzels much less PTV's, I'd hardly call it most advanced  Nuts


25 N79969 : Interestingly the largest airlines hubbed at the most slot restricted airports have not ordered A380. BA is no longer a pure-Boeing customer yet they
26 Singaporegirl : "world's largest and most advanced aviation market" - well the current most advanced aircraft offerings from both airbus and boeing are the a345, a346
27 N79969 : Having the newest airplanes does not make a market the most "advanced." U.S. firms have been at the leading edge of market innovations such as LCCs, c
28 Gigneil : Interestingly the largest airlines hubbed at the most slot restricted airports have not ordered A380. The largest airlines hubbed at the most slot res
29 JoFMO : With all respect to China's growth rates, but I don't see routes where a Chinese carrier desperately needs an A380. I see it more as an strategical in
30 Post contains images Adria : "...you mean the world's largest and most advanced (for better or worse) aviation market?" that's why no US major could survive without the money they
31 Flybyguy : Well indeed our nation is the largest aviation market in the world, however I must agree that ours is not the most advanced. And we probably will neve
32 Adria : "But you've got to hand it to the US, not many countries can afford to do what we do on our scales ... even if the time of adaptation is very sluggish
33 M27 : Adria: Do you have something against government help for companies?
34 Adria : "Do you have something against government help for companies?"........ isn't it the average US citizen that always keeps bashing the EU because they s
35 M27 : Adria: Thats a nice way to get around not answering the question!
36 Russophile : and the introduction of RJs That would be a matter of some contention, particularly as Aeroflot is considered to have introduced RJs into regular basi
37 M27 : I might have missed it, but is noted that these 5 A380's may be ILFC positions and may or may not result in new orders for Airbus?
38 Avek00 : "Yes, and I firmly believe that the A380 will be wearing NW colors by the end of this decade." Based on what? If anything, NW might pick up a few used
39 Avek00 : "1.2 billion people, and an ever increasing/expanding 'middle-class with disposable income', and additionally an expanding business environment." Not
40 Adria : "I might have missed it, but is noted that these 5 A380's may be ILFC positions and may or may not result in new orders for Airbus?".. okay maybe you
41 M27 : Adria: Do you not want Airbus to be able to deliver the aircraft to say United, US Air etc.? I am not saying I like the idea of government help to US
42 Rj111 : The thing i find funny is that most of these frequency obsessed US airlines are going bankrupt. ANA and JAL have also held off on purchasing A380 desp
43 JumboJim747 : I cant believe that there is people out there still wondering why no American airline has ordered the A380. UA fighting to survive would have been an
44 Post contains images Adria : "Believe me, I understand your point quite well and therefore am glad you admit Airbus has an unfair advantage!"...Where did I admit something? Don't
45 Airportugal310 : Adria: Thats a nice way to get around not answering the question! Sounds like he answered the question to me. Though I doubt the "average" American re
46 M27 : Airportugal310: "Sounds like he answered the question to me." Yeah, he answered it! Its ok for Airbus to get government help but not any for US airlin
47 Rj111 : Anyway, just to guide this topic back on track. We're waiting for Etihad and Thai to confirm, and we now have two undisclosed ones correct? this one f
48 Ozglobal : Qantasclub- "The fact that US carriers can't afford the A380 is irrelevant to this post." Well said!! You're on my respected users list for your eloqu
49 Adria : "Yeah, he answered it! Its ok for Airbus to get government help but not any for US airlines".......where did I say that? I only said that you are alwa
50 PPVRA : I have a question: What will we see in the future, large capacity with low seat/mile cost aircraft hub-hub operations or more direct flights between '
51 Ozglobal : PPVRA Discussed ad nauseam; do a search....
52 M27 : Adria: We could go on about this for days and I'm not going to do that! If you don't consider the Launch aid that Airbus gets, and has for 30yrs, gove
53 JetBlast : WHAT happened to the SUBJECT we were DISCUSSING?! JetBlast @ BWI
54 BlueSky1976 : "BA is no longer a pure-Boeing customer yet they have held off on going for the A380. In fact, they converted a batch of 744 orders to 777s." BA will
55 Sllevin : "Are some people not ABLE to realize the problems of congested airports like Narita, London/LHR, Frankfurt, just to name a few?" Trouble is, that list
56 KL808 : Ozglobal, I think its only this 5 that are new. Yes we are waiting for Thai and Etihad. Last I heard the Thai deal will push through shortly... But th
57 Cloudy : "Are some people not ABLE to realize the problems of congested airports like Narita, London/LHR, Frankfurt, just to name a few?" Trouble is, that list
58 Carpethead : RJ111, I wouldn't bet the farm on NH ordering A380. NH wants to simplify their fleet not complicate it. 773ER & 7E7s will do fine for them in the futu
59 Aither : "Not only is that true, longhaul widebodies are not causing the congestion at said airports. Narrowbodies and RJ's are." I don't think congestion is t
60 PPVRA : Cloudy, I agree 100% with you. -------------------------------------------- Aither, There will be a market for the A380, there is no question about th
61 Avek00 : "BA will order A380. It's inevitable." It's not at all inevitable - given the company's increasing focus on premium longhaul traffic, BA will have a g
62 JoFMO : @Cloudy: You just explained why BA hasn't ordered the A380 yet. They operate from one of the most congested airport in the world, LHR. If they need a
63 Greaser : Just a note, the 5 A380s signed will be off the line, but the Chinese Airlines noted above are in negotiations to whether they can get em before the O
64 JeffLAS : So....do they have room at Mojave for all of those new Airbus 380's ??? This should be interesting!
65 Xkorpyoh : I think that China should concentrate on frequency rather than size. While planning my last China trip, I noticed the lack of frequency for domestic f
66 Danny : The argument of frequency was used to justify launch of B717 which is total failure. On the other side Boeing kept saying that there is no need for "s
67 PPVRA : Danny, Airports are congested with RJ and narrowbodies, not widebodies. Except for a few airports/long haul flights where the A380 would make sense. A
68 JoFMO : @PPVRA: But on the other hand history proves that airlines prefer to add flights to existing markets instead of openening new routes. Last example whi
69 PPVRA : But on the other hand history proves that airlines prefer to add flights to existing markets instead of opening new routes. You are absolutely correct
70 Danny : "However cities like BUF are growing, and if you can take a 767 load out of a major HUB....it could make sense" Even though I would like it to be diff
71 N328KF : JeffLAS: So....do they have room at Mojave for all of those new Airbus 380's ??? It's a desert, dude.
72 PPVRA : Even though I would like it to be different there is no economic sense of flying transatlantic flights from BUF even on 762. There are just a few dire
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