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UA's And NW's USA-NRT-Other Cities In Asia Flights  
User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19260 posts, RR: 52
Posted (10 years 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 5199 times:

How do both UA and NW do on their USA-NRT-USA and NRT-other cities in Asia-NRT flights? Is there a lot of O&D traffic from, say, the USA to NRT and vice-versa, plus from NRT to other Asian cities and vice-versa? Or is a lot of it connecting traffic from the USA to other cities in Asia? I would guess that it is a good mix, but I'm not too sure.


"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineIowa744fan From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 931 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (10 years 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 5133 times:

Pe@rson,

I don't have figures, but I believe that there is a decent amount of O & D traffic on the NRT to Asia routes. Whenever I have to stop in NRT to go to/from HKG, there always seems to be a decent amount of passengers who are leaving for the customs area. For some other flights, like UA's HKG-SIN, I understand that there is quite a bit of O & D traffic. From what I have heard, the flights routinely go completely full in economy. One of my uncles in HK would routinely fly UA to Singapore. He was not a big fan of the timing, but the price was usually the best. I think that UA is also counting on a bit of O & D traffic for their new HKG-SGN route as well.


User currently offlineFoxBravo From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 3008 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (10 years 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 5098 times:

It is a good mix, and the flights do quite well. The flights beyond NRT to other Asian destinations would likely not be as profitable--if at all--without that unique ability to carry passengers originating in Japan. Understandably, the Japanese carriers have for many years chafed at the 1952 air services agreement that allowed Northwest and Pan Am (whose routes were purchased by United in 1985) to carry Japanese passengers to points throughout Asia. However, in 1952 Japan was still in a fairly weak bargaining position...to the victor go the spoils, and all that. Is that still fair in 2004? It's a thorny issue, and I'm not going to touch it with a barge pole.  Smile But that's how the situation came to be, and it remains quite lucrative for both NW and UA.


Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
User currently offlineUal777contrail From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (10 years 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 5098 times:

UAL runs a lot of flights to NRT. But unlike UAL, NWA flies to NRT and does MOST if not all of their connections in NRT. UAL has moved a few NRT flights, and have adapted an easier philosophy. If you are traveling to Japan,China, Korea and such, you will fly non-stop from the US vs connect in NRT and waste time. Ual does very well in the pacific, and our numbers prove that.


UAL 777 CONTRAIL


User currently offlineJoFMO From Germany, joined Jul 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (10 years 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5008 times:

What about opening new routes from NRT for UA like MNL, TPE or KUL?

Does this old 1952 rule restrict it to certain cities that they are serve now, or can they serve every city they want (if they get this right from the country the city is in too) ?


User currently offlineUal777contrail From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (10 years 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 4995 times:

I think it is 5th freedom rights, I could be wrong. In order to serve a city in NRT and being a US carrier, you must have 5th freedom rights to that city.

User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7566 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (10 years 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 4938 times:

Ual does very well in the pacific, and our numbers prove that.

As does NW

Both are doing very well, typically the NW NRT flights are running at near 100% year round load factor, typically overbooked in the summer by quite a bit. Either way, NW and UA are making money on these routes, so in essence, thats all that really matters in the business world.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineUal777contrail From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (10 years 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 4896 times:

burnsie,
Had to get that in didn't you. Tit for tat with you burnsie, 100% yah right. 100% year round? I find that hard to believe.


User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6538 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (10 years 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 4879 times:

I'll back up Burnsie on this. NWA does run at a near 100% load factor to NRT year round. They have been very judicious in managing the available seats to NRT. They would rather run with full loads, and hopefully pushing yield up, than in adding capacity to the market.

User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19260 posts, RR: 52
Reply 9, posted (10 years 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 4819 times:

Thanks for your replies.  Smile

I believe NW applied for NRT-KUL (it might have been accepted; I can't remember) and would have launched it but for 11th September.

Would NW carry many O&D passengers from other cities in Asia or NRT to DTW, without then flying from DTW to elsewhere in the USA?



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19260 posts, RR: 52
Reply 10, posted (10 years 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 4779 times:

How much cargo is transported from Japan to the USA and vice-versa, and from Japan to other major cities in Asia and vice-versa? I presume it's a great deal, especially to and from the USA.


"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineFoxBravo From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 3008 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (10 years 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 4738 times:

Would NW carry many O&D passengers from other cities in Asia or NRT to DTW, without then flying from DTW to elsewhere in the USA?

Again, I think it's a mix. While I'm sure there are plenty of businessmen in the auto industry traveling from Japan to DTW and vice versa (especially on the NGO nonstop), the majority of leisure travelers and many business travelers are likely bound for other cities throughout the East and Midwest, since (a) NW offers so many good connections through its hub there, (b) Detroit itself is not much of a tourist destination and (c) there is not a huge Asian population generating "VFR" traffic to/from the Detroit area. Overall, although there is a healthy amount of O&D traffic to help sustain the flights, I get the sense that NW uses DTW more as a gateway to Asia than as a source of O&D traffic.



Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
User currently offlineUnitedFirst From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 478 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (10 years 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 4734 times:

I think it is 5th freedom rights, I could be wrong. In order to serve a city in NRT and being a US carrier, you must have 5th freedom rights to that city.

They wouldn't HAVE to have fifth freedom rights just to serve a city via NRT. However, they would (and both United and Northwest do) have to have fifth freedom rights to carry passengers between NRT and other Asian destinations, without said passengers purchasing a ticket carrying them through to the United States on the same flight (ie, without fifth freedom rights, United couldn't carry a passenger between HKG and NRT, without the passenger staying on that flight through to a U.S. point).

Derek


User currently offlineCarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2980 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (10 years 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4673 times:

The problem for both UA & NW at NRT since the mid-1980s has been the lack of slots. If NRT didnft have slots problem, NW could base more 757s and fly them to many of the medium-sized cities in Asia within reach from NRT and this does include far south as Vietnam as the 757 does have legs for it. NW had a short-lived KIX-KUL & CGK flights with DC-10 in the late 90s, therefore, I believe UA & NW have rights to most countries to Asia from Japan except the number of flights to US carriers to China is limited. Therefore, UA & NW puts the aircraft/slots on where it can make the most revenue.

Recently, UA has started abandoning its 5th freedom routes and transferring it to longer-haul travel. This year SFO-PEK route eliminating an NRT-PEK and a second daily NRT-HNL was started. Next year an extra NRT-LAX flight will start instead of NRT-ICN. Also UA no longer needs to fly to PVG or PEK from NRT as NH can do the flying for them. NRT-ICN could be discontinued all together in the future in favor of OZ or NH picking up the frequencies for the late afternoon/evening time slots.

NW obviously has to use NRT as a focal point because it doesnft have a wide-ranging codeshare arrangement with carriers in the region, at least currently, nor the aircraft available to do non-stop US to Asia.


User currently offlineIowa744fan From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 931 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (10 years 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4424 times:

JoFmo,

UA did operate from NRT to TPE and to MNL, but they withdrew them. The MNL service was withdrawn quite some time ago...I think maybe pre-9/11 even. I am not sure if they were unhappy with the results or the economy at the time, but they pulled passenger flights. In fact, I know that it was pre-9/11 because I am pretty sure that they used to continue to operate Cargo flights for a little while (while they have the DC-10-30Fs) after dropping passenger service. The Taipei link was severed a while ago to, UA favoring the longer nonstop SFO-TPE service instead. As mentioned, with limited slots in NRT, UA seems to be benefitting from its partnership with ANA in that it can connect passengers to shorter flights within Asia and use their slots for longhauls to the US. Intra-Asia flying is profitable and a good market, but I would imagine that UA can make more on a flight from the US to Japan.

As for cargo, yes, there is a lot of cargo between Japan (and Asia) to the US. Between belly cargo and pure freighters, there is quite a bit of capacity.


User currently offlineNWAFA From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1893 posts, RR: 16
Reply 15, posted (10 years 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4381 times:

Contrail,

Burnsie is correct, we run between 99% and 100% daily on all the DTW-NRT flights. We also run 95-99% on LAX-NRT, 98-99% on SFO-NRT and between 98-100% on the SEA-NRT.



THANK YOU FOR FLYING NORTHWEST AIRLINES, WE TRULY APPRECIATE YOUR BUSINESS!
User currently offlineAADC10 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2103 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (10 years 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4350 times:

Some of the advantages of UA moving its PEK and PVG flights from NRT to SFO are lower landing fees and earlier arrival times in China. The NRT-PEK or PVG flights arrived too late to make air connections and freight would arrive after business hours.

I forgot exactly when UA dropped NRT-MNL but I believe it was 1997. My understanding was that it was always a low yield flight and the Asian currency meltdown killed it.

NW probably could base more 757s at NRT since they can use the short runway. Opening an international station just to operate one 757 is probably what prevents them from doing more of that. They would need at least two NW station managers and a sales office for one plane with less than 200 seats and non-container cargo. The yeild would have to be quite high to cover the overhead.


User currently offlineUadc8contrail From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1782 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (10 years 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4337 times:

iowa744fan,
ua moved the sfo-tpe back through nrt a while ago.



bus driver.......move that bus:)
User currently offlineUal777contrail From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (10 years 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4303 times:

NWAFA,
You are both wrong, NWA doesnt run 100%, or near 365 days a year.

I have a buddy with NWA and the flights for Sat. have a lot of open seats, better have a fire sale!!!


UAL 777 CONTRAIL


User currently offlineNWAFA From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1893 posts, RR: 16
Reply 19, posted (10 years 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4277 times:

Hey Contrail,

You may want to let your so called "friend" (so you have "crappy" friend then)know the loads for Satruday (12/4), I just pulled them up in pars and here they are:

DTW-NRT
#11 Booked: 416 out of 403 seats
#25 Booked: 411 out of 403 seats

LAX-NRT
#1 Booked: 334 out of 349 seats

SFO-NRT
#27 Booked: 231 out of 243 seats

SEA-NRT
#7 Booked: 238 out of 243

May I check any more full loads for you?



[Edited 2004-12-01 20:03:07]


THANK YOU FOR FLYING NORTHWEST AIRLINES, WE TRULY APPRECIATE YOUR BUSINESS!
User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6538 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (10 years 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4276 times:

Ual777contrail,

You better get a new buddy!!

Loads on Dec 4 saturday
----------------holds----booked
NW11 dtw-nrt--403------417
NW25 dtw-nrt--403------419
NW19msp-nrt--403------409
NW01lax-nrt---349------339
NW03msp-nrt--403------295
NW27sfo-nrt---243------214
NW07sea-nrt--243------232
NW17jfk-nrt--403-------365
Totals--------2850-----2690

Booked at 94.4% of capacity fours day out, Sounds like near 100% to me!!!


User currently offlineIowa744fan From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 931 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (10 years 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4284 times:

UAdc8,

Thanks. I was not aware that they had moved it back. So, just ICN (one flight left?), TPE, HKG, SIN, and BKK through NRT for UA?


User currently offlineNWAFA From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1893 posts, RR: 16
Reply 22, posted (10 years 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 4258 times:

Too Funny Bob that we were pulling them up at the same time!

Once again he is totally clueless!




THANK YOU FOR FLYING NORTHWEST AIRLINES, WE TRULY APPRECIATE YOUR BUSINESS!
User currently offlineBoiler Special From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 135 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (10 years 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 4215 times:

You NW guys ought to be careful who you're dishing that load information out to.


There are lots of eyes on this board that could find that information useful.


User currently offlineNWAFA From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1893 posts, RR: 16
Reply 24, posted (10 years 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4179 times:

Boiler,

Load factors are very public knowledge. So safety is in no way compromised.



THANK YOU FOR FLYING NORTHWEST AIRLINES, WE TRULY APPRECIATE YOUR BUSINESS!
25 UAMAYBACH1239 : Asia in part is the reason whyyou are still able to UA fins in the air. Thank God for that...
26 NWAFA : UAMAY, What are you trying to say there? Not really clear.
27 Burnsie28 : I think he is trying to say, the Asian markets is really the only reason you still see United around today.
28 NWAFA : Thanks Burnsie, now I understand what he was trying to say...
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