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Boeing Nears Decision On 747 Upgrade  
User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7152 posts, RR: 57
Posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9571 times:

http://yahoo.reuters.com/financeQuoteCompanyNewsArticle.jhtml?duid=mtfh37524_2004-11-30_16-20-53_l30518897_newsml

Baseler also said Boeing was nearing a decision on whether to launch another new plane, an upgrade of the 747 jumbo jet tentatively called the 747 Advanced that would use four of the new fuel efficient engines being developed for the twin-engined 7E7.

"We should be making a decision on this in the first quarter or first half of next year," Baseler said.




The world is really getting smaller these days
63 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCol From Malaysia, joined Nov 2003, 2116 posts, RR: 22
Reply 1, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9449 times:

How many orders by year end Randy, 3 to 4,000.

Sorry don't have too much trust in this guy. If it is true, this is excellent news.


User currently offline7E72004 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3587 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9399 times:

wouldn't it be more economical to just have the 747 ADV instead of developing an entirely new plane...i think they could do a lot to the current 747 to make it a "next generation" 747  Big thumbs up


The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8278 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9374 times:

And A can make the 350 the 330NG . . .

User currently offlineDIA From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3273 posts, RR: 27
Reply 4, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9343 times:

"wouldn't it be more economical to just have the 747 ADV instead of developing an entirely new plane..."


The 747ADV is the new plane. It is based off the current 744. So, it will be economical. . .and it is not developing an entirely new a/c. So, it basically will be the 3rd Generation 747 if you count the 741/2/3/SP as the first Gen and the 744 as the 2nd Gen.



Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
User currently offline7E72004 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3587 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9330 times:

What i meant was instead of developing a new plane like the 7E7, just "update" the 747...you pretty much got what i was trying to say DIA


The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
User currently offlineMauilono From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 46 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9291 times:

Good to hear, maybe it will be a true double-decker to compete with the A380??

User currently offlineHorus From Egypt, joined Feb 2004, 5230 posts, RR: 59
Reply 7, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9282 times:

A short while back an article in FI stated that Airbus predicted that over the next 20 years there would be a market for 1,500 aircraft with 500+ seats. Boeing predicted that over the same period there would be demand for 1,000 aircraft with 400+ seats. Now according to the article these estimates would account towards 8%-10% of total market in terms of numbers, but more significantly around 25% in terms of value at around $300 billion. Now wouldn't it be 'stupid' of Boeing to leave Airbus unchallenged in this market. If they don't wanna design a whole new aircraft than at the very least this proposed 747 Advance/Upgrade has to be pretty special to compete with the A380's economies.

Horus




EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
User currently offline7E72004 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3587 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9261 times:

Would anyone agree that it would be wise for Boeing to wait and see how the A380 does before going to far? I think in the meantime go ahead and work on the 747ADV but don't go all out.


The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
User currently offlineNa From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10736 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9256 times:

Enough talking, Boeing. Usually the Americans are more consequent and faster in doing than we Europeans, but this is an exeption. Now that Boeing is under threat, they seem to become somehow lethargic in decision-making and anxious about what to do.
Btw, from inside LH I have heard that they certainly wouldn´t go all-Airbus in the future and that a 747 Adv. would be very interesting to them.


User currently offline7E72004 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3587 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9249 times:

If you don't want to hear or read about boeing...then don't read it..stop trying to turn this into an A vs. B thing again...  Angry


The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
User currently offlineM27 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 314 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9215 times:

7E72004

You made some wonderful points in your posts. I believe I understand what you where saying.


User currently offlineNa From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10736 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9202 times:

A vs. B? Me? You must be kidding. I´m on neither side, or, better, on both. The launch of the 747 Advanced would be the best aviation news for me in years! And I mean that in earnest.
I´m just tired of the endless delays Boeing causes on this project.


User currently offlineHr001 From Honduras, joined Nov 2004, 303 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 9173 times:

"Good to hear, maybe it will be a true double-decker to compete with the A380??"


Boeing has always said that if built the 747ADV would fit between the A-380 and 777/A340. not to compete with the A-380.


User currently offlineDIA From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3273 posts, RR: 27
Reply 14, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 9165 times:

Before this becomes an all-out battle. . .

Let me just say, for what it's worth, I believe Boeing will make the 747ADV become reality and I think Boeing knows this as well, they just are going to sit on announcing it for awhile.




Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
User currently offlineHlywdCatft From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 5321 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 8919 times:

Ok, I tend to be more pro Boeing than I do pro Airbus because I am sticking up for American workers and would like to see them keep their jobs since the economy is pretty much f***ed, but I kind of agree with Na.

First of all, in the early 90s, Boeing was going to make the NLA which was like the A380, then Boeing dropped it, but later were going to go into a joint venture with Airbus on the A3XX, but then they backed out...

I remember all throughout the 90s off and on Boeing was going to make this stretch 747-500X, 600X, 700 and I believe an 800. They had a big article on it in Aviation Week and I did a report on it for my technology class in college back in 1997.

I was really looking forward to this new aircraft, and if any of you seen the designs for it, it was kind of cool. The new 747s would have 777 engines and the 6 wheel main gear like the 777s in addition to the 4 wheel gears on the fuselage... the planes would have a stretched upper deck and be stretched.

I got all excited about the plane, then they dropped it.

Then a couple years later, they talk about doing a more conservative stretch 747, then they drop it

Now here they go again...

I really want to see a new 747 and a stretch 747 and I think it would do very well in the Asian markets. I think ANA and Japan Air would both go for it and there are a few others who would go for it too which wouldn't go for the A380. I think Singapore would have gone with the 747 stretch had it come out, but they got the A380 since Boeing is not offering anything bigger.

I don't think there will be a huge market for 500 + seat aircraft, but I think Boeing should offer the option and build it on the same line as their 400s, when the order comes, throw in the fuselage plug.





User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8278 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 8857 times:

I'm one of those that believe that B will move on the new 747 fairly soon and would not be surprised if they announce an order or two very shortly after the official launch.

For me, B is very much subject to the call of the airlines in terms of where they are going with the 747. While the airlines might not have been interested in previous upgrades I think that improved fuel performance will push this one through - the "E" in the 7E7 is catching on these days.

From a strategic position, B owns the 747 size slot and A owns the 380 size slot. B is in a position where they HAVE to defend their position in the slot they own. This forces the 747ADV, especially since the 380 is going into production.


User currently offlineHz747300 From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2004, 1677 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 8814 times:
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This is freakin' awesome news, man!!!!

I hope they build a short one with winglets called the 747-Adv-SP, which could do LAX-DEL nonstop, or SYD-JFK, or LHR-SYD (no res.). This is perfekt for airlines that have to accomodate airports whose tax-base refuse to pay for upgrades to support the flying bohemuth, A380.



Keep on truckin'...
User currently offlineThrust From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 2690 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 8637 times:

I certainly hope Boeing decides to go ahead with the project this time. THe 777 is almost up to its limits, so it can't cancel the 747-500X, 747-600X projects this time. They are certainly capable of challenging the A380. The A380 is probably going to knock off any future 747 sales and widen the amount of recent Airbus orders over Boeing orders. Boeing also needs to find a way to get their prices lower. THat is what is truly hurting them right now.


Fly one thing; Fly it well
User currently offlineBlackbird1331 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1893 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 8361 times:

The Boeing Stinkyworks probably has all the blueprints completed by now for the 47 Advanced. They just need to announce the go-ahead. I think they will since Airbus has given the go-ahead for the A350.

And who out there thinks there is not an AvB thing going on? Get a life.



Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
User currently offlineSailorOrion From Germany, joined Feb 2001, 2058 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 8314 times:

That's the last info I got:

http://hq.fischer.homeip.net/747adv.pdf

SailorOrion


User currently offlineUA772IAD From Australia, joined Jul 2004, 1730 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 8268 times:

7E72004: I agree, perhaps they should wait for the A380's results.
But then I realized how sucessful the 744 has been. At least one airline on every continent (ext. Antartica) has an airline with a 744 A/C (Asia, Europe and US have several). It is truly a global plane that is very presteigous and very popular, especially in Asia. I think that the 744 will not do anything to the A380 (VICE VERSA) because the seating market is different.
Additionally, because the 744 is so cosmopolitan (worldly) I think that alot of airlines would love to operate more of them if their efficiency was better. Redesining the 744 will answer these wishes. (I know UA would certainly like to return all their 744s to service). I think Boeing is targeting Asian and US markets, and leaving Europe, for now, to Airbus (their "homemade" product).


User currently offlineDayflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 8239 times:

The airlines are saying we must commit or we move on," he said, citing a meeting with several carriers held in Hong Kong last month.

A truly interesting statement.

Think for a moment: A customer is telling Boeing to commit to the project once and for all or shut up about it.

Perhaps Boeing is stalling becuase it only has one cutomer with interest in a few frames but wants a commitiment from another customer before commitment and announcing?






One Nation Under God
User currently offlineCedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8114 posts, RR: 53
Reply 23, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 8150 times:

I think that link is to an abbreviated version of the article, or I'm just confused. Sorry if this is nothing new:

Boeing hints 7E7 target could slip, eyes new jumbo

Tue Nov 30, 2004 01:17 PM ET

By Jason Neely, European Aerospace & Airlines Correspondent

LONDON, Nov 30 (Reuters) - Planemaker Boeing Co. is aiming for orders for 200 of its all-new 7E7 jets by the end of the year but would not be too concerned if that target slipped by a month or two, it said on Tuesday.

"That certainly is the target. If it becomes January, February, we are not too disturbed," Randy Baseler, vice president for marketing at Boeing Commercial Airplanes told Reuters.

"Harry's got the heat on us," he said, referring to Chief Executive Harry Stonecipher's hopes for firming up the orders by the end of the year.

With orders for just 52 7E7 plans so far, Boeing would need another 148 -- a record for one model in a single month.

"That would certainly be, if not the record, close to it," Baseler said.

Rival planemaker Airbus is expected to decide next month whether to begin marketing a new plane tentatively named the A350 to compete with the 7E7 and has said it would seek state aid as part of the launch.

Baseler said Boeing no longer recognises a 1992 deal that allowed such state aid.

"It's our understanding that the 1992 agreement is null and void," he told reporters. "Any (state-supplied launch) funding going forward for the A350 would be a violation," he said.


TURNING TO WTO

Washington filed a complaint with the World Trade Organisation last month over state launch aid, which Airbus receives and need not pay back should new models prove unsuccessful.

"I think that would be of great interest to the WTO," Baseler said of the possibility of Airbus seeking more for the A350.

Baseler said the A350, a longer-range version of the twin-engine A330, would mark a dramatic change in Airbus' stance, which for long routes has favoured four engines such as on its A340 as well as the double-decker A380 due in 2006.

"All of a sudden they are saying they can fly a twin-engine 7,500, 8,000 nautical miles. This really says their whole product strategy is being thrown out the window."

He said Qatar Airways and other airlines were interested in a 257-seat version of the 7E7 not due until 2010 but that he was not worried that Airbus would steal potential orders by matching the 7E7 with a version of the A350 ready by then or earlier.

"Not that could be as efficient in fuel, in maintenance, from a comfort point of view," he said.

As for the impact on Boeing's own line-up as it prepares for the 7E7 in 2008, Baseler said production jobs were safe for now on the 767, which many airlines are expected to replace with the new plane.

"Right now we don't have to make a decision for about a year, so we're comfortable," he said, noting that Boeing might even be in line for new orders for the 767 from carriers needing a plane until the 7E7 arrives.


NEW JUMBO

Baseler also said Boeing was nearing a decision on whether to launch another new plane, an upgrade of the 747 jumbo jet tentatively called the 747 Advanced that would use four of the new fuel-efficient engines being developed for the twin-engine 7E7.

"We should be making a decision on this in the first quarter or first half of next year," Baseler said.

"The airlines are saying we must commit or we move on," he said, citing a meeting with several carriers held in Hong Kong last month.

"These are airlines that have ordered the A380. They like 20 percent increments," he said, referring to the 555-seat double-decker and the desire of some carriers to have a plane about 20 percent smaller at 450 seats.

The 7E7 is Boeing's first all-new plane since the larger 777 was launched in 1990, though it has brought to market many derivatives based on existing models in that time, including a new freighter version of the 777 unveiled just this month.

Designed to offer lower fuel and operating costs, it will come in three versions seating 217-289 passengers and serve a market, in which Boeing sees demand for 3,500 planes over the next 20 years.



fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlineN317AS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 7967 times:

"Enough talking, Boeing. Usually the Americans are more consequent and faster in doing than we Europeans, but this is an exeption. Now that Boeing is under threat, they seem to become somehow lethargic in decision-making and anxious about what to do."


The good news for Boeing fans is Boeing doesn't spew their guts about everything they are doing. Just because they don't tell all to the press, doesn't mean we aren't doing something. Give us a break!!!  Insane


25 Flybynight : How many orders by year end Randy, 3 to 4,000. Sorry don't have too much trust in this guy. If it is true, this is excellent news. The news is definit
26 M27 : A small article frow ATW online. http://www.atwonline.com/indexfull.cfm?newsid=4787 Cathay Pacific Airways expects to decide in the first half of 2005
27 A380900 : 737 and 747... Now, isn't it time to draw some new planes? Enough extreme makeovers of old ladies!
28 Post contains images Thrust : Actually, A380900, finding a way to make over "old ladies" as you call the 737 and 747 is a more efficient approach than an entirely brand new aircraf
29 Scotron11 : How many A380 aircraft do Airbus need to sell to break even? From the orders so far, I think they may lose their shirt on this one. Hopefully Boeing d
30 HlywdCatft : **""How many A380 aircraft do Airbus need to sell to break even? From the orders so far, I think they may lose their shirt on this one.""** We figured
31 VirginFlyer : I would ask everyone to please keep this on subject - Boeing's decision on the 747 Advanced. I have just removed a number of the more wildly off topic
32 Greaser : Most probably Boeing see Airbus eyeing a 380-700 (shrink) as most airlines would want, in the area of 744-A380 size, in which Cathay Pac and even Luft
33 N328KF : Shrinks don't work. Usually.
34 Lutfi : Wouldn't be surprised to see more interest in the cargo version than the pax version - the B747F ADV would have great economics IMHO. My understanding
35 Carpethead : The last two projects Boeing did with slight tweaking turnout to be losers. (753 & 764) New engines are a little different but for some strange reason
36 FlyCaledonian : Lutfi, I think you've maybe hit the nail on the head there. One potential 747ADV customer, which nobody has mentioned yet, is BA. They, however, are n
37 Greaser : CarpetHead, you have to remember why the B753 'failed'. Firstly, it came way too late to the market. Second, 9/11 had a profound effect on 757/767 sal
38 Boeing nut : 737 and 747... Now, isn't it time to draw some new planes? Enough extreme makeovers of old ladies! If it ain't broke............................
39 ZK-NBT : Hopefully Boeing will launch this aircraft! There are quite a few potential customers for the pax version, QF, BA, LH, CX, MH, KE and then several for
40 Spacecadet : Perhaps Boeing is stalling becuase it only has one cutomer with interest in a few frames but wants a commitiment from another customer before commitme
41 Anxebla : The 9/11 issue was bad also for Airbus, not just on the Boeing's case! I think it's a good idea seeing to Boeing developing a new 747's generation. Bu
42 Greaser : The 9/11 issue was bad also for Airbus, not just on the Boeing's case! Not true when talking about the 757. Most of the 757s are in ths US, where avia
43 Post contains images Anxebla : Boeing might saying any thing, but a 747ADV will be very similar with the 773ER's... (especially with the new ETOPS-330' rule, which means nearly no E
44 StickShaker : ..."Shrinks don't work. Usually"... Difficult to generalise on this one. The A332 worked very well but A318 and B736 haven't. Seems to work where the
45 Scotron11 : Hey, you never know, BA may change their minds. If the first delivery date was 2010....well, their current 744's will be up there in age....maybe...ju
46 JAL : Why not just come up with an all-new model??
47 Greaser : JAL, Boeing has not firmed up any real plans on the 747, so anything is really up in the air. Boeing has to analyse the current and future situation,
48 Post contains images Iowa744fan : SailorOrion, Thanks for that link. I have been trying to find out some details on the proposed 747ADV for a while. Many thanks.
49 Ken777 : In the short term - the next year or so - going with the 747ADV is going to hit profits. B's profits, however, have been increased because of W's mili
50 Alessandro : The thing B needs to do with the B747 is to make it FBW, the tripple-7 was their first civil FBW application and worked out well.
51 Zvezda : IF Boeing build the B747Adv and IF they were to then want to compete with the A380-800, how expensive would it be to stretch the B747Adv. Boeing must
52 Atmx2000 : Why would they want to compete directly with the A380-800 with a older frame? They don't want to compete with the A380 anywhere closer to its sweet sp
53 DfwRevolution : Difficult to generalise on this one. The A332 worked very well but A318 and B736 haven't. Seems to work where the object is to obtain more range rathe
54 N328KF : DfwRevolution says: Both manufactures have begun to "steal" each other's philosophy. The A388 is probably the first Airbus to be designed with a compl
55 PVG : I think that there is enough of a niche market for B to go ahead with this. I just don't see that there is a need for a huge plane the size of the 380
56 TG992 : Why could they not just develop in 747 - 400 to a 747 - 500??
57 DfwRevolution : By the way, does anyone know how the 747 adv economics would compare to the 340-500/600? Hard to say... but the extra 30-40 seats and lower fuel burn
58 PVG : Thanks DFW Revolution. I think that they don't call it a 747-500 because they want to emphasize that this is an advanced product and not just a simple
59 Post contains images N328KF : PVG: Then they should call it the 747-1000.
60 Greaser : N328KF, well if they do build the 744-ADV it will not be sold as a 747-ADV, most probably 747-500. This 'X' phase is historical for Boeing, with the 7
61 RayChuang : My guess is that Boeing will likely sell the 747 Advanced as the 747-700, probably with a modified wing that uses raked wingtips. But most of the sale
62 StickShaker : By the way, does anyone know how the 747 adv economics would compare to the 340-500/600? Hard to say... but the extra 30-40 seats and lower fuel burn
63 Areopagus : A new wing will enhance economics further. That pdf that SailorOrion linked to shows a modified, but not all-new wing: 1. Additional span by adding ra
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